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ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE
Does anybody know what the formula is for growth of non-primary species on a mixed planet? There seems to be a pretty substantial penalty, but I'm not sure exactly what or why.

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Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy
Mouseover the growth bar, it should tell you exactly what the modifiers are.

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Truga posted:

Mouseover the growth bar, it should tell you exactly what the modifiers are.

It doesn't. Here's an example of a planet with 2 species (the space elves are the primary species):

Looking at the primary species growth:

There is a 1.0 base growth, 2 plus 10% modifiers only (from tech and tradition), and then I end up with a monthly growth rate below 1.0 at 0.93.
On the secondary species growth, it's even worse:

Same base display, same modifiers, and somehow only 0.31 growth.

It's like the game took my base 1.0 growth, applied the modifiers, and then divided it across the species, which seems like a real annoyance to multi-species empires.

MadJackMcJack
Jun 10, 2009
Well that's bloody odd. I said before that my Curator scientist got elected leader. No worries, turns out that means I can hire a new one and when elections come around that means I'll have two.

Except what actually happens is that the election comes up and the Curator is the only candidate. Did I just wind up with a space Putin?

Spanish Matlock
Sep 6, 2004

If you want to play the I-didn't-know-this-was-a-hippo-bar game with me, that's fine.

Captain Oblivious posted:

Positive ethics attraction appears to do next to nothing right now. It's maddening.

Add it to the list with migration attraction, and the xenophile ethos in general.


Stellaris - The Mechanics Do Nothing

Nuclearmonkee
Jun 10, 2009


ulmont posted:

It doesn't. Here's an example of a planet with 2 species (the space elves are the primary species):

Looking at the primary species growth:

There is a 1.0 base growth, 2 plus 10% modifiers only (from tech and tradition), and then I end up with a monthly growth rate below 1.0 at 0.93.
On the secondary species growth, it's even worse:

Same base display, same modifiers, and somehow only 0.31 growth.

It's like the game took my base 1.0 growth, applied the modifiers, and then divided it across the species, which seems like a real annoyance to multi-species empires.

There's also that cool thing where the requirement increases with each pop so if you have one of species X and a bunch of species Y, species Y will grow faster and you will get maybe one of species X at the very end. Species X's main purpose is to simply hinder your growth rate.

Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy

ulmont posted:

It's like the game took my base 1.0 growth, applied the modifiers, and then divided it across the species, which seems like a real annoyance to multi-species empires.

That is funny.

Maybe because you have 3 humanoids but just one of the other guys? Maybe that's the catch, 3 people reproduce 3 times as fast as just 1?

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


misguided rage posted:

Pretty sure you can't apply it to pops being purged, which is kind of a bummer.

Then what in the gently caress is the point

TomViolence
Feb 19, 2013

PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

How broken is the game right now? I was gonna play, but considering all the mechanics that seem to be busted right now I get the feeling I'm better off waiting for the next patch.

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Truga posted:

Maybe because you have 3 humanoids but just one of the other guys? Maybe that's the catch, 3 people reproduce 3 times as fast as just 1?

I think you're right - it takes your modified population growth and splits it across all species on a planet in proportion to their existing population, meaning you get no benefit out of a multi-species planet at all.

Shugojin posted:

Then what in the gently caress is the point

Riding out the recently conquered penalty.

TomViolence posted:

How broken is the game right now? I was gonna play, but considering all the mechanics that seem to be busted right now I get the feeling I'm better off waiting for the next patch.

It's fun, come on in.

Inexplicable Humblebrag
Sep 20, 2003

what's a Curator scientist? is that from the DLC?

Rynoto
Apr 27, 2009
It doesn't help that I'm fat as fuck, so my face shouldn't be shown off in the first place.
Curators

One of the enclave stations you randomnly get contacted by where you can trade for stuff. Can get a scientist with high enough reputation with them.

e: requires leviathans dlc

Rynoto fucked around with this message at 14:49 on May 29, 2017

Bohemian Nights
Jul 14, 2006

When I wake up,
I look into the mirror
I can see a clearer, vision
I should start living today
Clapping Larry

TomViolence posted:

How broken is the game right now? I was gonna play, but considering all the mechanics that seem to be busted right now I get the feeling I'm better off waiting for the next patch.

It's not really broken at all- the only reason we're kicking at these issues is that the honeymoon phase is over and new weird problems keep popping up, but don't get the wrong impression, 90% of this game works really well and is hecka fun I feel

Weavered
Jun 23, 2013

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

not sure I understand what happened here, did you think that turning on purging was like "root out the disloyal subjects" instead of "kill everyone"?

Partly, I mixed up displacement with outright purging. Like someone else said, this is one of the most sophisticated Stalinism simulators out there. The options for being an evil overlord are somewhat extensive.

MadJackMcJack posted:

Goddamnit, I had a Curator happily plugging away at my science and my government went and elected him President :argh:

This is even more annoyingly when your prize admiral is swept off to enjoy the trappings of power right in the middle of leading The ISS Doomstack against an armada of The Confederation of Maneating Space Lizards. This should not happen, especially mid battle.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

TomViolence posted:

How broken is the game right now? I was gonna play, but considering all the mechanics that seem to be busted right now I get the feeling I'm better off waiting for the next patch.

Not much, honestly.

There's just weird/annoying issues at the periphery after you've played a long time and know where to look. It really doesn't matter to 95% of gameplay.

I think ethics attraction is probably the most genuinely relevant busted mechanic, and even it's still mostly an annoying inconvenience.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...
Grimey Drawer

Bohemian Nights posted:

It's not really broken at all- the only reason we're kicking at these issues is that the honeymoon phase is over and new weird problems keep popping up, but don't get the wrong impression, 90% of this game works really well and is hecka fun I feel

The thing is, it's too much fun. I'm at 317 hours now and still far from done. :shepface:

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Spanish Matlock posted:

Add it to the list with migration attraction, and the xenophile ethos in general.


Stellaris - The Mechanics Do Nothing

Migration attraction is fixed. It's definitely just attraction to the ethoses which is broken. I've had militarist pops on six planets with orbital mind control lasers, the Ascention perk that increases attraction AND re-education going for two hundred years and it's not changed.

GunnerJ
Aug 1, 2005

Do you think this is funny?
Why is this dude so salty: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/modability-suggestions.928316/page-25#post-22885485

AlphaAsh posted:

Fix using pop_environment_tolerance on buildings please, so it's correctly accounted for for purposes of forced migration and reported planet habitability. Or cop out (again) and just remove it from the last remaining vanilla building it's on, the Visitor Centre, effectively deprecating the only decent modifier modders have left for affecting planet habitability with buildings. Because that's always easier.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

that dude is going to be hired to work on this game by next year, mark my words

ProZocK
Apr 22, 2013
Here, to make up for dicing you, multiple times, have some nice, calm text.

Shugojin posted:

Then what in the gently caress is the point

If you are using the livestock slavery option it works wonders. Shame the livestock slavery sucks.

Wiz
May 16, 2004

Nap Ghost

ulmont posted:

Does anybody know what the formula is for growth of non-primary species on a mixed planet? There seems to be a pretty substantial penalty, but I'm not sure exactly what or why.

Total growth is spread out among all species depending on how large a part of the planet's population they are.

Aethernet
Jan 28, 2009

This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!

Grimey Drawer

Wiz posted:

Total growth is spread out among all species depending on how large a part of the planet's population they are.

Is the intention to gimp one of the advantages of xenophiles?

Because xenophilia was clearly OP before.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Wiz posted:

Total growth is spread out among all species depending on how large a part of the planet's population they are.

this could probably stand to be better communicated in the UI

it's also AFAICT a significant nerf to multispecies planets because a pop growing at 70% and a pop growing at 30% are not as good as a pop growing at 100%, because pops aren't productive until they're fully grown

Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 17:56 on May 29, 2017

Spanish Matlock
Sep 6, 2004

If you want to play the I-didn't-know-this-was-a-hippo-bar game with me, that's fine.

Taear posted:

Migration attraction is fixed. It's definitely just attraction to the ethoses which is broken. I've had militarist pops on six planets with orbital mind control lasers, the Ascention perk that increases attraction AND re-education going for two hundred years and it's not changed.

Last I heard pops only move from full planets, did they fix the thing where xenophile Utopias would be less attractive than planets inside of a despotic slaver empire?

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

ulmont posted:

You can. You just have to make sure that when you rezip the save file that there are a few picky settings.

http://www.stellariswiki.com/Save-game_editing

I don't suppose you can elaborate on the process? The wiki article listed is almost totally incomprehensible to me because it seems to presume a baseline of knowledge. I, for example, cannot find any reference in the 7zip program to a way to not include NTFS timestamps like they suggest.

I've figured out how, in Notepad++, to edit the gamestate file how I need to I just have absolutely no idea what the order of operations and actions I should be taking with regards to unzipping (?) and rezipping (?) the .sav file, or how.

Wiz
May 16, 2004

Nap Ghost

Aethernet posted:

Is the intention to gimp one of the advantages of xenophiles?

Because xenophilia was clearly OP before.

It's always been this way. Having your growth multiplied by your number of species would be stupidly overpowered.

Cease to Hope posted:

this could probably stand to be better communicated in the UI

it's also AFAICT a significant nerf to multispecies planets because a pop growing at 70% and a pop growing at 30% are not as good as a pop growing at 100%, because pops aren't productive until they're fully grown

They also do not count against growth penalty until fully grown, so a planet with multiple species will fill up faster overall.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

I'm not like other posters

Captain Oblivious posted:

I don't suppose you can elaborate on the process? The wiki article listed is almost totally incomprehensible to me because it seems to presume a baseline of knowledge. I, for example, cannot find any reference in the 7zip program to a way to not include NTFS timestamps like they suggest.

I've figured out how, in Notepad++, to edit the gamestate file how I need to I just have absolutely no idea what the order of operations and actions I should be taking with regards to unzipping (?) and rezipping (?) the .sav file, or how.

Actually nevermind, I bumblefucked my way into successfully editing an ironman save yaaaay :v:

Wiz posted:

It's always been this way. Having your growth multiplied by your number of species would be stupidly overpowered.


They also do not count against growth penalty until fully grown, so a planet with multiple species will fill up faster overall.

My understanding is that the way it currently works is that two species will grow two pops in basically the same time frame as one species would grow two. Do you think that, as an incentive to not enslave the galaxy, one might consider specifically increasing it to some middle ground between the broken ideal (two species produce one pop each effectively doubling growth) and the current system, specifically for civs that are extending equal rights to both populations? Slavers would keep the functionally identical pop growth rate, xenophiles get an effective boost by maintaining parity between the races at the trade off of consumer goods.

Just spitballing ideas here.

Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 18:19 on May 29, 2017

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Spanish Matlock posted:

Last I heard pops only move from full planets, did they fix the thing where xenophile Utopias would be less attractive than planets inside of a despotic slaver empire?

They do only move from full planets. The only real "issue" with migration now is a deliberate one, which is that only one pop can be migrating to a planet at any one time.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Wiz posted:

They also do not count against growth penalty until fully grown, so a planet with multiple species will fill up faster overall.

fair enough! a better, possibly timeline-style visualization for growth might help to communicate this. X pop due at Y time, causes are A B C

Nuclearmonkee
Jun 10, 2009


Wiz posted:

It's always been this way. Having your growth multiplied by your number of species would be stupidly overpowered.


They also do not count against growth penalty until fully grown, so a planet with multiple species will fill up faster overall.

This is not true. If you have several pops of one species, and one of another who migrated, the smaller pop will grow at a very slow rate to the point that as the main pop grows, the increased requirement for the next pop will scale up on the slowly growing pop to a point where the primary pop will easily grow a bunch of times (possibly filling the planet up) before the smaller pop grows once. All the while, that primary pop is growing at a reduced rate due to the secondary pop and the growth going into the secondary pop bucket is wasted until the end as a partially grown pop does not produce.

You are basically very slowly filling the last pop growth bucket with earlier pop growth points which slows earlier growth. Earlier growth is better as more pops earlier will increase planetary output and slowing early growth by 10-30%ish is decreasing the amount of output you get out of the planet during the growth window. Overall the effect is minor but it is flat out slowing productivity increases of a planet to have an alien pop migrate to a planet with a bunch of your own pops already present.

If the cost to grow a pop was locked in when it started growing then it wouldn't be as bad.

Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 18:34 on May 29, 2017

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

PittTheElder posted:

Because I was too lazy to do any math, I switched back to Mining Guilds, and crippled my mineral income.

I think I figured out the theoretical reason. By some point in the game, most of my mineral income is actually "from sectors" which don't get the mining guilds bonus, letting ecologist pull way ahead.

Captain Oblivious posted:

I don't suppose you can elaborate on the process? The wiki article listed is almost totally incomprehensible to me because it seems to presume a baseline of knowledge. I, for example, cannot find any reference in the 7zip program to a way to not include NTFS timestamps like they suggest.

I see you got it, but they show you the 7zip options to select when adding your files:


Wiz posted:

It's always been this way. Having your growth multiplied by your number of species would be stupidly overpowered.

I guess so, but I thought there was supposed to be some benefit in the xenophile playstyle other than just migrations?

EDIT: Someone had asked if the trigger for awakening an FE had moved up. It is currently fleet power 50000, which I think is up from 40000.
code:
                # Wake up if regular empire is growing too strong or has started to conquer other fallen empires
                any_country = {
                        is_country_type = default
                        OR = {
                                fleet_power > 50000
                                any_owned_planet = {
                                        has_planet_flag = fallen_empire_world
                                }
                        }
                }

ulmont fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 29, 2017

OGS-Remix
Sep 4, 2007

Totally surviving on my own. On LAND!
Are there any good mods for just increasing the size of the ship designer window? I downloaded some ships off of steam, but they have so many sections that they get pushed off and I can't click on the individual part slots.

It seems like it'd be very simple to mod in, but I haven't found anything like that on the workshop.

Spanish Matlock
Sep 6, 2004

If you want to play the I-didn't-know-this-was-a-hippo-bar game with me, that's fine.

Captain Oblivious posted:

My understanding is that the way it currently works is that two species will grow two pops in basically the same time frame as one species would grow two. Do you think that, as an incentive to not enslave the galaxy, one might consider specifically increasing it to some middle ground between the broken ideal (two species produce one pop each effectively doubling growth) and the current system, specifically for civs that are extending equal rights to both populations? Slavers would keep the functionally identical pop growth rate, xenophiles get an effective boost by maintaining parity between the races at the trade off of consumer goods.

I mean that would make xenophile actually do something, instead of the nothing it does now.

Taear posted:

They do only move from full planets. The only real "issue" with migration now is a deliberate one, which is that only one pop can be migrating to a planet at any one time.

My specific problem was that no amount of migration attraction bonus seemed to incentivize pops to move in from a different empire, rather than moving within their own empire. Perhaps it should only let one pop of a single species move in at a time?

Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 10, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.


I opened a vault on a tomb world and it was full of mutants that started to purge the local pops before i could get an army there, but the purge didn't stop when I wiped the mutants out either so now there's nothing but droids on this lovely bombed out husk.

Funnily enough the 'brave new world' edict isn't attracting anyone either so I guess that world is now droids only.

Edit: apart from that I've had no problem attracting migrants from other empires. All I've needed to do is colonise a planet of their preferred type and a load of weird bug men turned up right away.

Powerful Two-Hander fucked around with this message at 09:19 on May 30, 2017

Aleth
Aug 2, 2008

Pillbug
Would you want to move to a nuclear wasteland after hearing that the first wave of colonists were torn apart by mutant monstrosities?

Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 10, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.


Also why do some empires refuse to join my federation with reason '-1000 dislike' when they have +150 opinion and actively like me? I'm a stupid democratic pacifist so adding people to my federation is about all I can do.

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Spanish Matlock posted:

My specific problem was that no amount of migration attraction bonus seemed to incentivize pops to move in from a different empire, rather than moving within their own empire. Perhaps it should only let one pop of a single species move in at a time?

It was like that before but now I get loads of aliens from other species, since the new patch.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...
Grimey Drawer

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

Also why do some empires refuse to join my federation with reason '-1000 dislike' when they have +150 opinion and actively like me? I'm a stupid democratic pacifist so adding people to my federation is about all I can do.

If you're hovering over the "-1000" number in the trade deal window it should give you a tool tip telling you exactly why the assholes are being stupid.

Aethernet
Jan 28, 2009

This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!

Grimey Drawer
Generally it's because they don't like one of your existing members, either because of ethos or because they're far away. You can overcome this partly through giving them associate membership, but if they're too far away you'll need to rely on one of your closer members to ask them. Distance for this ask should be calculated from the edge of the Federation, not your borders, but hey.

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Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Aethernet posted:

Generally it's because they don't like one of your existing members, either because of ethos or because they're far away. You can overcome this partly through giving them associate membership, but if they're too far away you'll need to rely on one of your closer members to ask them. Distance for this ask should be calculated from the edge of the Federation, not your borders, but hey.

There are definitely some bugs with it right now. I've had "hates [my civilization] -1000" for a place that has +150 relationship with me.
Which is what the person you're both replying to is talking about.

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