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Kilroy posted:Minimum wage is a relic of an era when we thought full employment was a worthwhile thing to target, and also when it was a thing we could still sort of actually do. The former is certainly not the case anymore, and the latter probably isn't either. We faced this employment/automation crisis before, and we sensibly lowered the work week from 100 hours gradually to 40 so the invention of labor-saving machinery would be a boon all around to mankind rather than an ironic source of misery and destitution. I mean I'm all for a UBI, but if we can't have that because muh Protestant Work Ethic, we could still pursue full employment by reducing the work week. Frankly even with a UBI people are going to want to work, I'd still want see a cultural shift towards shorter work weeks and more leisure with more people having the opportunity to choose to work if they want to earn more than their UBI.
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May 30, 2017 09:20
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VitalSigns posted:He does this every time the minimum wage comes up. I've seen so many people correct him that fast food jobs in Denmark pay ~US$20/hr minimum (that was 2014, the US dollar has strengthened since then so it's less now) after he goes on about how $15 has never been done anywhere in the worldby statute, I can only assume the dishonesty is deliberate at this point. However, I do think this distinction may be something to learn from, in that broad worker protections are a more important matter than the minimum wage, as the wages should be in the hands of the workers to a far greater extent. At the very least it is likely the case that the minimum wage cannot be raised in such a way that wages become fair for a lot of workers (i.e. various jobs which really should pay more due to costs incurred by the employee etc.), where protection of workers and unions would get at that problem too.
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May 30, 2017 09:23
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RandomBlue posted:Everything is flyover country until it's not. Cities grow and become real big boy cities over time unless our population is in decline as a country. Cities don't grow solely based on people banging. People move around so they can find opportunity. Small towns die because people move away looking for work. poo poo, my hometown and surrounding areas numbered about 25000 in the 50s. Now the areas half that. About 50/50 between industry dying and efficiency increasing. Edit: fixed numbers. Mustached Demon fucked around with this message at 09:29 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 09:25
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Fulchrum posted:Why the gently caress not? Trump already normalised it in the campaign, he just never went through on it cause he knew that they could never make a case against Hillary unless propaganda was admissible as evidence. I hate to be in agreement with Fulchrum on anything, but seriously. How much better would we be if Obama hadn't pardoned Bush's loving torture regime and instead had him and Cheney and everyone else in that poo poo-show tried for war crimes? When Trump is out, I want Sessions and Trump and Pence and Ryan and especially McConnell and Kushner and Flynn and Manafort and Bannon and everyone else involved with this tragedy to be held accountable, and the only charge I can think of as being appropriate is HIGH TREASON.
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May 30, 2017 09:25
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Apoplexy posted:I brought her up in the previous thread. We think she's dead now. Which is a good thing. Reverse google image search says she was 2004 Texas delegate Patricia "Pat" C Peale. Couldn't find any information about her age or anything recent, but we can dream. E: she gave to Maggie's List in 2012 E2: Well poo poo looks like the 85th Texas legislature (that's the current one that just went out of session) introduced a resolution honoring her quote:RESOLVED, That the House of Representatives of the 85th Texas Legislature hereby honor Pat Peale for her many years of service to the Republican Party and extend to her sincere best wishes for the future; Guess she's still around. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 09:36 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 09:27
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Apoplexy posted:I hate to be in agreement with Fulchrum on anything, but seriously. How much better would we be if Obama hadn't pardoned Bush's loving torture regime and instead had him and Cheney and everyone else in that poo poo-show tried for war crimes? When Trump is out, I want Sessions and Trump and Pence and Ryan and especially McConnell and Kushner and Flynn and Manafort and Bannon and everyone else involved with this tragedy to be held accountable, and the only charge I can think of as being appropriate is HIGH TREASON. Immediately using executive power to charge your predecessor with high treason is a feature of banana republics. If Bush had been impeached for treason that would be one thing, but he wasn't.
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May 30, 2017 09:30
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VitalSigns posted:Reverse google image search says she was 2004 Texas delegate Patricia "Pat" C Peale. Couldn't find any information about her age or anything recent, but we can dream. Son of a gently caress. Petr was wrong! drat YOU, PETR!
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May 30, 2017 09:35
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Fojar38 posted:Immediately using executive power to charge your predecessor with high treason is a feature of banana republics. Trump's bananas are the best. Big league.
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May 30, 2017 09:36
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Fojar38 posted:Immediately using executive power to charge your predecessor with high treason is a feature of banana republics. If Bush had been impeached for treason that would be one thing, but he wasn't. Yes, and if Trump manages to not be impeached, which wouldn't shock me, does that absolve him of every crime he's committed? Democrats are and were spineless idiots. We should've impeached Bush for numerous reasons, from competence to cronyism to war crimes.
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May 30, 2017 09:36
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Decorum and respect for political discourse still existed back then. Tea party pissed that away so yeah going after a trump after he's done should be a ok.
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May 30, 2017 09:40
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VitalSigns posted:We faced this employment/automation crisis before, and we sensibly lowered the work week from 100 hours gradually to 40 so the invention of labor-saving machinery would be a boon all around to mankind rather than an ironic source of misery and destitution. This. The current situation of one group of people being stressed out of their trees from overwork and another group of people being hated because they can't find work is utterly moronic.
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May 30, 2017 09:44
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So...wait. Some guy with a whole bunch of money and literally zero political experience or qualifications says some (one?) nice vague things and we're already saying we'll vote for him to take over the highest office in the land? I just. What the everliving gently caress, people.
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May 30, 2017 09:45
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kartikeya posted:So...wait. Some guy with a whole bunch of money and literally zero political experience or qualifications says some (one?) nice vague things and we're already saying we'll vote for him to take over the highest office in the land? Are you new to America
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May 30, 2017 09:49
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RandomBlue posted:It takes a lot of time and effort to keep those JO crystals charge up to King of the World levels. It'd be faster if Bannon joined in but he had his dick replaced with a noose decades ago. this was very good
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May 30, 2017 09:52
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kartikeya posted:So...wait. Some guy with a whole bunch of money and literally zero political experience or qualifications says some (one?) nice vague things and we're already saying we'll vote for him to take over the highest office in the land? This already literally just happened with Trump, except they weren't nice things
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May 30, 2017 09:52
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Apoplexy posted:Yes, and if Trump manages to not be impeached, which wouldn't shock me, does that absolve him of every crime he's committed? Democrats are and were spineless idiots. We should've impeached Bush for numerous reasons, from competence to cronyism to war crimes. Of course it doesn't. But again, charging your predecessor for treason without an impeachment sets an insanely bad precedent. Doing what you're proposing to Bush may very well have destroyed American democracy regardless of his crimes.
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May 30, 2017 09:53
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kartikeya posted:So...wait. Some guy with a whole bunch of money and literally zero political experience or qualifications says some (one?) nice vague things and we're already saying we'll vote for him to take over the highest office in the land? Find 2010 me and tell him he's an idiot.
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May 30, 2017 09:54
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WeAreTheRomans posted:This already literally just happened with Trump, except they weren't nice things Which is exactly my point. They were nice things to the people he was saying them to, that is, they were things those people wanted to hear. Donald Trump 2: Now he's Blue is not a sequel I want to see happen, thanks.
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May 30, 2017 09:57
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kartikeya posted:So...wait. Some guy with a whole bunch of money and literally zero political experience or qualifications says some (one?) nice vague things and we're already saying we'll vote for him to take over the highest office in the land? Who's saying this? (Besides Trump supporters.)
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May 30, 2017 09:58
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Who's saying this? There were a few eye opening posts about Zuckerberg in the last few pages.
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May 30, 2017 09:59
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Fojar38 posted:Of course it doesn't. But again, charging your predecessor for treason without an impeachment sets an insanely bad precedent. Doing what you're proposing to Bush may very well have destroyed American democracy regardless of his crimes. Do you realize what just happened in 2016? It was the destruction of American democracy.
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May 30, 2017 10:01
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Fojar38 posted:Of course it doesn't. But again, charging your predecessor for treason without an impeachment sets an insanely bad precedent. Doing what you're proposing to Bush may very well have destroyed American democracy regardless of his crimes. On the other hand, Americans believe (correctly) that politicians are above the law, and many responded to that by electing the first guy who promised to punish a politician for her crimes. Those crimes were of course imaginary in Hillary's case, but when you openly tell people we're not going to punish high-profile politicians for their crimes then you'll have a hard time convincing them that the FBI didn't recommend charges because she's really innocent since it would have been the same outcome were she guilty.
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May 30, 2017 10:02
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If Zuckerberger did some terms in state office and Congress I would consider him. Right now thats the equivalent of a group trying to get me to run for president based solely on me avoiding dumping HF all over myself.
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May 30, 2017 10:05
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Fojar38 posted:Immediately using executive power to charge your predecessor with high treason is a feature of banana republics. If Bush had been impeached for treason that would be one thing, but he wasn't. Is the Banana Republic feature electing the criminal or prosecuting the criminal when they leave office? Or should executives be immune from all law in practice?
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May 30, 2017 10:13
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Ice Phisherman posted:It's more complicated than simple action and reaction. More complicated than respect and rationality. These are components to larger problems. A bold call to inaction. Not for a moment do you consider that making a drastic change in policy after Trump would be necessary to even attempt to repair or mitigate the damage he will have done. Let the victims suffer quietly and snuff out all protest movements so that politics can once again be boring.
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May 30, 2017 10:21
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Fojar38 posted:Of course it doesn't. But again, charging your predecessor for treason without an impeachment sets an insanely bad precedent. Doing what you're proposing to Bush may very well have destroyed American democracy regardless of his crimes. Also it'd have been pretty hypocritical given that Obama turned out to be a war criminal himself.
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May 30, 2017 10:23
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Trabisnikof posted:Is the Banana Republic feature electing the criminal or prosecuting the criminal when they leave office? Or should executives be immune from all law in practice? How about electing the criminal who promised to enact a witch hunt on his political opponent who did nothing illegal whilst simultaneously colluding with a foreign power that has a historically-acrimonious relationship with the US? We're far beyond Banana Republic right now. For this country to be any more obvious in being in its last throes, we'd have to be a one-party system where obvious criminality goes unpunished because of a 'party over country' mentality and our chief executive could be literally giving state secrets away to foreign dictators while the head of our criminal justice division could be an outright Klansman. OH WAI
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May 30, 2017 10:24
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kartikeya posted:So...wait. Some guy with a whole bunch of money and literally zero political experience or qualifications says some (one?) nice vague things and we're already saying we'll vote for him to take over the highest office in the land? Fojar38 posted:Of course it doesn't. But again, charging your predecessor for treason without an impeachment sets an insanely bad precedent. Doing what you're proposing to Bush may very well have destroyed American democracy regardless of his crimes. Democracy was basically destroyed anyway.
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May 30, 2017 10:25
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Also it'd have been pretty hypocritical given that Obama turned out to be a war criminal himself. You do understand that "war ceiminal" has an actual goddamn definition, and doesn't mean "he didn't immediately disband all levels of the us military and then hand Iran nukes", right?
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May 30, 2017 10:28
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Fulchrum posted:You do understand that "war ceiminal" has an actual goddamn definition, and doesn't mean "he didn't immediately disband all levels of the us military and then hand Iran nukes", right? Yeah, I'm not Obama's biggest fan, but he didn't do anything but continue with poo poo Bush started. If he'd ceased all drone warfare and attempts to stamp out terrorism all throughout the Middle-East, there'd have been repercussions. The kind that Americans wouldn't accept, as opposed to 'dead foreigners'
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May 30, 2017 10:37
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Apoplexy posted:Yeah, I'm not Obama's biggest fan, but he didn't do anything but continue with poo poo Bush started. If he'd ceased all drone warfare and attempts to stamp out terrorism all throughout the Middle-East, there'd have been repercussions. The kind that Americans wouldn't accept, as opposed to 'dead foreigners' He also, and this is a big deal, discontinued the torture that was the actual war crime of the Bush adminisyration. That, and invading a country based on falsified information without approval by the U.N. security. And because some edgy dumbfucks is going to go "Bu-bu-buh Libya", that was joining a war declared BY a U.N. security council partner, based on factual information.
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May 30, 2017 10:46
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nine-gear crow posted:America is a nation of infinite forgiveness and incurably short memory, where the Overton Window only moves in one direction: rightward. Can this somehow be the background image for this thread or something, because 
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May 30, 2017 10:47
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Trump said lots and lots of nice things on the campaign trail. He said bad things too, but lots of very nice things. He was in favor of affordable healthcare for everyone. Remember that? He promised no cuts to Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid. He wanted to initiate major spending on rebuilding the country's infrastructure He was going to drain the swamp of corruption, kick out all the wall street insiders and lobbyist. How can you call yourself a leftist, a progressive, and not get behind someone like that? Because it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that he was lying, just like Zuckerberg
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May 30, 2017 10:54
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Getting an early start on completely ignoring policy yet again.
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May 30, 2017 10:58
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Fulchrum posted:So you've given up pretending you care at all about policy, but? "Policy" matters only if the person pushing for it has the political experience necessary to enact it. We are seeing the importance of political experience with Trump (as in, lack thereof). Coming from the business world, he has zero clue how government actually operates. He gives people orders as if he's their boss. He doesn't understand how different parts of the government are intricately tied together and work together. As a result, he can't get anything done. Zuckerberg has the same problem. Zero practical experience in governing means he is simply unqualified to be POTUS. Maybe he should run for governor first, or congress, and see how things work. It might make him realize he doesn't like politics at all. Who knows, it might even humble him and make him realize he doesn't have what it takes. Bottom line: the fact that Zuckerberg wants to push for UBI is irrelevant. He's a 32 year old dude, which makes him 7 years younger than Macron, who is the youngest elected president of France. And unlike Macron, he doesn't know politics. He won't get anything done, if elected.
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May 30, 2017 11:00
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Ice Phisherman posted:What I want going forward is a return to stability. I want the wheels to stay on. For politics to be boring as poo poo and where everyone ignores it save for we nerds save when something bad happens. The further we go down these paths the worse the changes are going to be when we attempt to get things stable again. After some more thought, this bit is really abhorrent. You want the general population disengaged from politics. How are you planning on doing that? Suppressing dissenting voices like China or Russia?
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May 30, 2017 11:15
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enraged_camel posted:"Policy" matters only if the person pushing for it has the political experience necessary to enact it. Oh please. Trump doesn't fail to understand how government works because he is a business owner. Trump fails to understand how government works because he is a colossal loving moron of the highest order, a man who is simultaneously senile, an alpha male jock douchebag, has a slow brain that does not learn information well, with a toddlers sensibilities and capacity for attention, and is actively hostile to the very concept of facts and reality. We all know that he doesn't understand basic civics, but that absolute rock bottom stupidity that puts him behind most third graders, kind of redundantly, puts most third graders ahead of him. As in, as long as someone isn't as actively and fiercely opposed to the very concept of knowing things and understanding things as a republican, that poo poo ain't some mystery that eludes the greatest of all scholars. C'mon, you seriously expect me to believe that you'd need to be the governor of California for 3 years to understand that the court is able to strike down an executive order for being unconstitutional? Or that a bill needs to reach consensus in order to pass the House? You have got to know that saying that all business owners are just as stupid as Putins puppet is hugely disingenuous. In years past, then the skills learned at the lower levels were essential for a POTUS. Wheeling and dealing across the aisles, winning them over with charm and knowledge of where the bodies are buried, these were finely honed skills. THe problem is that those skills are utterly and completely obsolete in the modern political era. Bipartisanship and working across the aisle is well and truly dead. Hell, they actively hurt you - look at Obama. It is undeniable that his belief in bipartisanship and cooperation were huge flaws that cost him a lot. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 11:21 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 11:16
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RandomBlue posted:Everything is flyover country until it's not. Cities grow and become real big boy cities over time unless our population is in decline as a country. Absolutely, but you need jobs, and various kinds of infrastructure, and educated workers, and a functioning healthcare system, and leisure activities etc etc that you know something in insert state here doesn't have. raising the minimum wage is a cool and good thing, but it won't turn Cupcake, Nowhere into a thriving hub of anything. These places aren't desolate hellscapes because of the minimum wage; they're that way because of brain decay, and that's not a problem that gets fixe with minimum wage. Not saying it's a reason NOT to raise minimum wage, mind you.
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May 30, 2017 11:25
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FizFashizzle posted:Absolutely, but you need jobs, and various kinds of infrastructure, and educated workers, and a functioning healthcare system, and leisure activities etc etc that you know something in insert state here doesn't have. Well, things like leisure companies start up and thrive when people actually have money to spend with them. That's why you don't just see oil companies doing well when there's an oil boom, loads of service companies also do well since there are suddenly tons of rich oil workers around with money to burn. When people aren't burning their entire income on bare necessities, they can afford to spend money on leisure and education. Raising the minimum wage is a fantastic way to stimulate the economy since poor people - when given money - actually spend their money in the local economy, instead of using it to buy property in London nobody will live in, or sending it to offshore havens to make entirely sure that they never have to pay any taxes or contribute to society in any way.
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May 30, 2017 11:37
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Gort posted:Well, things like leisure companies start up and thrive when people actually have money to spend with them. That's why you don't just see oil companies doing well when there's an oil boom, loads of service companies also do well since there are suddenly tons of rich oil workers around with money to burn. I mean sure yeah that's one part of it. But raising the minimum wage doesn't build a regional airport, or build a children's hospital, or lay fiber optic line, or improve the electrical grid, or build better interstates etc etc That just has to happen at the federal level, and has to be presented as "look we're gonna build this so you can do something better here."
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May 30, 2017 11:44
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