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Still dont know why youd copy the brain at a molecular level instead of trying to suspend aging/repair damage in the short term. Maybe not quite immortality but from the perspective of the repaired that would probs be fine
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May 30, 2017 07:56
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Surprise Giraffe posted:Still dont know why youd copy the brain at a molecular level instead of trying to suspend aging/repair damage in the short term. Maybe not quite immortality but from the perspective of the repaired that would probs be fine because organic life, and animal brains, as a support structure for consciousness, is a desperate chemical competition for limited resources, resulting in every horror that exists in the world today, from gossip to genocide.
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May 30, 2017 12:28
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Broccoli Cat posted:because organic life, and animal brains, as a support structure for consciousness, is a desperate chemical competition for limited resources, resulting in every horror that exists in the world today, from gossip to genocide. Everything takes resources, and still would in any of these theoretical futures. Resources would always be limited. Exactly how long do you imagine the resources of this solar system could maintain billions of intelligences that never stop, and the simulated reality they would live in? Because brain uploading, as stupid as it's tech rapture bullshit is? Is infinitely more likely than us ever managing to get out of this solar system in any meaningful way. So that's it, look around. These rocks and swirling masses of gas and that sun? That's about all we have to work with unless we have some insane breakthrough before we burn out. How long you think you are stretching all it?
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May 30, 2017 12:54
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Mulva posted:Everything takes resources, and still would in any of these theoretical futures. Resources would always be limited. Exactly how long do you imagine the resources of this solar system could maintain billions of intelligences that never stop, and the simulated reality they would live in? Because brain uploading, as stupid as it's tech rapture bullshit is? Is infinitely more likely than us ever managing to get out of this solar system in any meaningful way. So that's it, look around. These rocks and swirling masses of gas and that sun? That's about all we have to work with unless we have some insane breakthrough before we burn out. How long you think you are stretching all it? once the solid-state environment is built and orbiting the sun, all those virtual universes will last as long as the star burns. and since each universe would ideally be isolated from all others, the aspect of competition doesn't come into play.
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May 30, 2017 13:03
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Yeah once Jesus comes back things will be awesome forever, but I was talking about reality and not magic.
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May 30, 2017 13:08
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Mulva posted:Yeah once Jesus comes back things will be awesome forever, but I was talking about reality and not magic. but jesus is fake, and computers are real.
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May 30, 2017 13:43
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Broccoli Cat posted:but jesus is fake, and computers are real. Jesus very well could have been real, the stuff you are talking about isn't and won't be. Arguably, can't be. Physics doesn't stop existing just because you don't want to die. Point, Jesus.
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May 30, 2017 14:25
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I dunno how anyone can look at this world and conclude "I want to live here forever"
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May 30, 2017 14:27
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Mulva posted:Jesus very well could have been real, the stuff you are talking about isn't and won't be. Arguably, can't be. Physics doesn't stop existing just because you don't want to die. oooh teach me more about history and physics! 
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May 30, 2017 14:30
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Broccoli Cat posted:oooh teach me more about history and physics! Tangential, but could you tell me about your red text?
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May 30, 2017 14:33
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Lightning Lord posted:I dunno how anyone can look at this world and conclude "I want to live here forever" that's because you're an ape, living in a chaotic poo poo hole, not a virtual god, living in a heaven of your own creation.
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May 30, 2017 14:34
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Broccoli Cat posted:that's because you're an ape, living in a chaotic poo poo hole, not a virtual god, living in a heaven of your own creation. What if I am an ape god?
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May 30, 2017 14:35
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WrenP-Complete posted:Tangential, but could you tell me about your red text? I made sport of some bigoted pussy and he took offense OR some loving retard misunderstood my employment of irony as a comedic device, while I was making fun of the bigoted pussy
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May 30, 2017 14:37
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Computers are real, and strong and my friend. Cat av's right in saying you couldn't have an unlimited population for an unlimited amount of time, but a solar system could easily support a few trillion human-like-things for a few tens of billions of years, if it were properly managed.
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May 30, 2017 14:37
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Lightning Lord posted:What if I am an ape god? ape gods are not real gods, they are just giant apes, as proven by the movie King Kong.
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May 30, 2017 14:41
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rudatron posted:Water bears are ugly & stupid, and if they all died, no one would miss them. Mostly because you can't see them. Well you're ugly & stupid too, but I don't want you to die. ...usually. Most of the time. Some of the time. Dzhay posted:Computers are real, and strong and my friend. It won't be properly managed. It will, in fact, be a heaven only for the ultra-rich, of which the transhumanists ITT will not be one.
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May 30, 2017 14:45
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Broccoli Cat posted:that's because you're an ape, living in a chaotic poo poo hole, not a virtual god, living in a heaven of your own creation. 
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May 30, 2017 14:49
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op after our minds have been uploaded into the computers have you considered perhaps using our natural bioelectricity as means to supplement the power the computers you will require using our flesh husks as batteries, as it were
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May 30, 2017 14:51
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If this allows me to gently caress forever I might change my goddamn mind
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May 30, 2017 14:52
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Broccoli Cat posted:"you" are only a by-product of a fraction of your brain's processes..."you" are a by-product of finite resources, as is your sensory input which creates awareness of your body and "self". Yeah, but such an upload would involve/require such a dramatic change to human psychology (and the human experience in general) that it would effectively be just like replacing yourself with an AI who happens to have your memories. It's not really the same sort of change as something like as anti-depressants (for example), which generally just increase or decrease some chemical that's already in your brain and varies naturally to begin with.
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May 30, 2017 14:54
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what the religiously minded stem nerds dont get is that technology wont save humanity. we have to rely on concepts well proven by countless humanities scholars on the internet. like communism
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May 30, 2017 14:55
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Who What Now posted:It won't be properly managed. It will, in fact, be a heaven only for the ultra-rich, of which the transhumanists ITT will not be one. "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if some far future technology lets people live forever?" "I dunno man, what if those people were *stage whisper* rich?!"
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May 30, 2017 14:58
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Mercrom posted:what the religiously minded stem nerds dont get is that technology wont save humanity. we have to rely on concepts well proven by countless humanities scholars on the internet. like communism true eternal life lies in the destruction of capitalism
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May 30, 2017 14:59
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Dzhay posted:"Hey, wouldn't it be cool if some far future technology lets people live forever?" Yes, because as we all know new technology has never been used to benefit the haves and exploit the have-nots.
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May 30, 2017 15:10
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, but such an upload would involve/require such a dramatic change to human psychology (and the human experience in general) that it would effectively be just like replacing yourself with an AI who happens to have your memories. It's not really the same sort of change as something like as anti-depressants (for example), which generally just increase or decrease some chemical that's already in your brain and varies naturally to begin with. Are you saying that an ape taking antidepressants is better than a simulated perfect mind with the ability to choose whichever levels of depression keep life spicy? Pretend you are a simulated consciousness in a solid-state universe right now, and you have simply programmed yourself not to be aware of it for a certain amount of time...there, you are now experiencing exactly how different things would feel...
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May 30, 2017 15:20
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Who What Now posted:Yes, because as we all know new technology has never been used to benefit the haves and exploit the have-nots. yep
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May 30, 2017 15:22
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Who What Now posted:Yes, because as we all know new technology has never been used to benefit the haves and exploit the have-nots. we also know that "the haves" are the only driving force civilization has ever had, even when "the haves" are disguised as an inefficient corrupt political aristocracy and addressed as "comrade"
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May 30, 2017 15:28
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if you think about it human hierarchies only exist because of technology. mankinds history consist of a constant struggle between the liberating powers of philosophers, religious leaders and politicians, and the oppressive forces consisting of rich peoples robot armies
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May 30, 2017 15:33
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Broccoli Cat posted:we also know that "the haves" are the only driving force civilization has ever had, even when "the haves" are disguised as an inefficient corrupt political aristocracy and addressed as "comrade" 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
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May 30, 2017 15:35
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stone cold posted:🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 
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May 30, 2017 15:43
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Yuli Ban posted:It makes sense that symbiosis of man and machine is necessary simply because of how totally our brains are outclassed by computers. This post is stupid. A photonic computer can calculate 1+1+1+... extremely fast and it is completely boring. Intelligence is not about processing speed. Intelligence is about goal acquisition.  Something is more intelligent when it is better able to achieve its goals. The reason it is hard to compare human intelligence to (say) cat intelligence is that humans and cats have different goals, and we're both very good at achieving them. This is the thing that all the LessWrong idiots just don't understand. They believe intelligence (and hence, goals) can lie on a flat line. Like, this is literally what the world's AI experts think about intelligence:  This is loving stupid. I'm more intelligent when I'm more effective at accomplishing my goals. To build artificial intelligence, we need to build systems that are incredibly capable agents. And capability doesn't depend on processing speed. A computer can be very fast, but not effective at anything. Being effective means hooking yourself into other domains of action and control. Like, I could have a child, and that child could literally be the smartest neural architecture on the planet, but if that child grows up in an environment of poverty and oppression it will amount to nothing. Speed doesn't matter. A superintelligent photonic AI left to rot in an interstellar void doesn't mean poo poo. What matters is networks of power, and specifically, those networks of power that make our human worlds interoperable. Hooking into that world requires the capacity to deal with not just computations in general, but the very specific and extremely complex computations involved with making the human world tick. I mean, if you want to exploit biopower, you need some means for processing the particular format of energy powering biosystems (glucose and its derivatives). Biopower isn't free energy; that energy is locked up in specific ways through extremely complicated networks of interaction. Exploiting that energy requires trading in that specific network. Similarly, human social power also derives from a complex web of social interaction. If AI wants social power, it needs to be operating on that particular network.
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May 30, 2017 16:00
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I think intelligence is probably about both processing speed (and working memory) and using it to achieve goals. Eripsa posted:I'm more intelligent when I'm more effective at accomplishing my goals. To build artificial intelligence, we need to build systems that are incredibly capable agents. And capability doesn't depend on processing speed. A computer can be very fast, but not effective at anything. Being effective means hooking yourself into other domains of action and control. Like, I could have a child, and that child could literally be the smartest neural architecture on the planet, but if that child grows up in an environment of poverty and oppression it will amount to nothing. Speed doesn't matter. A superintelligent photonic AI left to rot in an interstellar void doesn't mean poo poo.
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May 30, 2017 16:14
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Broccoli Cat posted:that's because you're an ape, living in a chaotic poo poo hole, not a virtual god, living in a heaven of your own creation. What do you think is the point of living, if not swirling in chaotic poo poo? Like, what will you finally be free to do, once freed from this chaotic poo poo? If freed from these restrictions, what becomes possible? Because a god trapped in a tupperware container around some dim star doesn't sound so amazing tbh
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May 30, 2017 16:15
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Eripsa posted:Like, I could have a child, and that child could literally be the smartest neural architecture on the planet, but if that child grows up in an environment of poverty and oppression it will amount to nothing. You should probably not say things that can be construed as meaning poor people are all stupid and worthless. Also you shouldn't call people "it".
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May 30, 2017 16:15
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WrenP-Complete posted:I think intelligence is probably about both processing speed (and working memory) and using it to achieve goals. I'm not arguing that human life doesn't matter. What I'm saying is that even extreme intelligence is devalued and depowered by our world. I was badly trying to echo the famous Gould quote: "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." If BC's goal is to make everyone as smart as Einstein, he doesn't understand what the problem is.
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May 30, 2017 16:18
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Eripsa posted:I'm not arguing that human life doesn't matter. What I'm saying is that even extreme intelligence is devalued and depowered by our world. Thank you. 
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May 30, 2017 16:22
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WrenP-Complete posted:I think intelligence is probably about both processing speed (and working memory) and using it to achieve goals. Nah, there's no correlation between goal acquisition and computation. Speed and memory will give you computational performance, but that alone does not predict success. An extremely powerful supercomputer can be taken out of commission by someone tripping over a power cord, for instance. The RNG gods have dominion over success, but not computation. I'm using "intelligence" in such a broad way that we might, for instance, talk about the intelligence of plants at achieving their goals. Imagine two plants growing side by side, both generating new cells at an equally ferocious pace. But one plant grows tall and the other grows wide. Which will be more successful? Of course, this is not nearly enough information to settle the matter. You'd need to know species, conditions, and a ton of other factors. Size and orientation of growth is not enough. Similarly, imagine both plants grow tall, but one grows faster than the other. Now, which is more successful? We still don't have enough information. Speed, just like orientation, is not enough to predict success. edit: I should clarify that psychologists talk about G, the "general intelligence" factor. I imagine G does have to do with processing speed (is computational), but I'm less convinced of the relationship with goal acquisition of the sort I'm talking about here.
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May 30, 2017 16:28
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Dzhay posted:"Hey, wouldn't it be cool if some far future technology lets people live forever?" I for one can't wait until class effects people down to the cellular level and the Rich are literally superior to the dirty plebs who have no cards left in their hands when extreme automation renders them superfluous to human civilization.
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May 30, 2017 16:29
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Broccoli Cat posted:once the solid-state environment is built and orbiting the sun, all those virtual universes will last as long as the star burns. But you still need "stuff" to build the solid-state environment. And there would be some limit to the computational power of "stuff" so there'd be a hard limit of how many digital souls you could support.
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May 30, 2017 16:33
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Eripsa posted:Nah, there's no correlation between goal acquisition and computation. Speed and memory will give you computational performance, but that alone does not predict success. An extremely powerful supercomputer can be taken out of commission by someone tripping over a power cord, for instance. The RNG gods have dominion over success, but not computation. Yeah, I was speaking about the psychological definition. So hmmm.... do roads have intelligence? Other tools? WrenP-Complete fucked around with this message at 16:44 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 16:42
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