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Bloody posted:like this is at least as wild spending pages hollerin that knowing what == is for nah not at all. one is a concept that has direct value to business and one is a concept that cs majors feel like everyone should know Blinkz0rz fucked around with this message at 23:17 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 23:09
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Bloody posted:apparently it is elitist to expect professionals to have even a basic understanding of their field when you interview them though!!! yospos bitch! we've been over this before computer programming is not computer science
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May 30, 2017 23:10
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knowing if your code is going to suck rear end or not before you run it is a useful programming skill
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May 30, 2017 23:10
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but hey someone has to make lovely code and lovely systems for consultants to come in and clean up later for 10x the cost
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May 30, 2017 23:10
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Blinkz0rz posted:i've worked with hundreds of engineers in my career and never had trouble expressing the runtime complexity of an algorithm without using big o. i don't disagree that it's useful but there's a lot of "i learned it and therefore you should too" going on here with very little regard for the concepts we're actually taking about. what is unclear is why you're so resistant to learning eight words of common vocabulary for these concepts you're apparently already comfortable with
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May 30, 2017 23:11
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Bloody posted:like this is at least as wild spending pages hollerin that knowing what == is for all I know is that if you see === you're using the wrong language
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May 30, 2017 23:11
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raminasi posted:what is unclear is why you're so resistant to learning eight words of common vocabulary for these concepts you're apparently already comfortable with i'm not. i'm not arguing against knowing it to pass interviews. i'm suggesting that there's no indication that knowing or not knowing big o has any effect on the quality of a candidate. the vocabulary is trivia.
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May 30, 2017 23:12
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School of How posted:because in this industry theres always a million new things coming out that you have to learn, and learning is hard work. i'd rather spend my learning time learning something that is actually useful. also, it *is* possible to get a job without spewing out cs trivia. pretty much every single job i've ever gotten has been without any kind of technical interview. I mean CS trivia makes learning those million new things a lot easier because they're mostly just new ways of abstracting the principles of computer science. I don't think anyone is saying that you need to have encyclopedic knowledge of data structures or algorithms, if you stopped me on the street and asked me what the big O of radix sort was I wouldn't be able to tell you off the top of my head. But i definitely could look at pseudocode and tell you what it is. I mean a :caranalogy: would be that a mechanic could build themselves a tricked out car on a Honda Civic chassis but not have the knowledge to build a good engine from scratch. A mechanical engineer can, and they're not going to know the thermal properties of every metal alloy they come across off the top of their head.
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May 30, 2017 23:13
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Blinkz0rz posted:i'm not. i'm not arguing against knowing it to pass interviews. i'm suggesting that there's no indication that knowing or not knowing big o has any effect on the quality of a candidate. the vocabulary is trivia. It's a pretty good aptitude test. Was this person smart enough to go and learn this common thing after the first two or three interviews where they didn't know it.
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May 30, 2017 23:17
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Do they immediately start ranting about ~~~~~elitism~~~~~ when you ask them an industry standard technical question ? * frantically circles not a good culture fit. *
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May 30, 2017 23:19
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jre posted:It's a pretty good aptitude test. Was this person smart enough to go and learn this common thing after the first two or three interviews where they didn't know it. i guess?  idk i also feel like it's a broken practice to require whiteboard tests to be syntactically perfect but there are companies that do that too. doesn't make it valuable to anyone.
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May 30, 2017 23:20
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jre posted:Do they immediately start ranting about ~~~~~elitism~~~~~ when you ask them an industry standard technical question ? you seem angry
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May 30, 2017 23:20
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Blinkz0rz posted:i'm not. i'm not arguing against knowing it to pass interviews. i'm suggesting that there's no indication that knowing or not knowing big o has any effect on the quality of a candidate. the vocabulary is trivia. I am legit curious about how any of your hundreds of complexity discussions has progressed concisely without big-O vocabulary. like, how would you compare the performance of radix sort to bubble sort? I am not trying to be snarky I really want to know. (I think that it's a lovely interview question because it presupposes knowledge of the algorithms.) ThePeavstenator posted:I don't think anyone is saying that you need to have encyclopedic knowledge of data structures or algorithms, if you stopped me on the street and asked me what the big O of radix sort was I wouldn't be able to tell you off the top of my head. But i definitely could look at pseudocode and tell you what it is. radix sort specifically is good to have in your back pocket because it's linear in the number of comparisons
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May 30, 2017 23:31
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one thing that I always found weird about programmer career culture: is that there isn't an urgency for maintaining a "code portfolio". in my mind it makes sense to me in a "sofware development is a craft" way like sure we judge people's githubs but 99% of candidates have an empty github account wtf
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May 30, 2017 23:32
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Symbolic Butt posted:one thing that I always found weird about programmer career culture: All code I write during work hours is owned by the company. gently caress writing code out of hours and gently caress hiring anyone who's writing code out of hours
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May 30, 2017 23:36
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Symbolic Butt posted:one thing that I always found weird about programmer career culture: my employer pays for and owns basically every interesting piece of software i have developed
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May 30, 2017 23:36
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Symbolic Butt posted:one thing that I always found weird about programmer career culture: Bloody posted:my employer pays for and owns basically every interesting piece of software i have developed ding ding ding
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May 30, 2017 23:39
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my github has two kinds of things: stillborn partway-done projects that would be cool if i could work on them as full-time jobs and dinky tools for my own use that take less than half an hour to make. idk if either's useful for judging me as a programmer but there they are
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May 30, 2017 23:41
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jre posted:gently caress hiring anyone who's writing code out of hours cmon, maybe they wrote that radixsort code while reviewing for interviews! 
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May 30, 2017 23:41
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once actually had an interviewer ask me a bit about my garbage neural network project and about a blog post i wrote about it which was pretty surprising they later declined me
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May 30, 2017 23:42
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xxhash by the guy who designed lz4 and zstd is real fast and good, particularly the 64-bit version
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May 30, 2017 23:42
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you guys expect people to review computer science concepts for interviews, but you don't expect them to showcase any code that they're proud of. you guys are part of the problem!
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May 30, 2017 23:43
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my soon to be former employer open-sores some of the code they pay my to write, but I'm not showing it to anyone
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May 30, 2017 23:43
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Symbolic Butt posted:you guys expect people to review computer science concepts for interviews, but you don't expect them to showcase any code that they're proud of. Symbolic Butt posted:you guys expect people to review computer science concepts for interviews, but you don't expect them to showcase any code that they're proud of. you cannot be serious with this post
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May 31, 2017 00:22
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ThePeavstenator posted:I mean CS trivia makes learning those million new things a lot easier because they're mostly just new ways of abstracting the principles of computer science. as someone who has been self learning frameworks and languages and stuff since i was in middle school (mid-90s), i have to disagree. quote:I don't think anyone is saying that you need to have encyclopedic knowledge of data structures or algorithms, quote:if you stopped me on the street and asked me what the big O of radix sort was I wouldn't be able to tell you off the top of my head. But i definitely could look at pseudocode and tell you what it is. quote:I mean a :caranalogy: would be that a mechanic could build themselves a tricked out car on a Honda Civic chassis but not have the knowledge to build a good engine from scratch. A mechanical engineer can, and they're not going to know the thermal properties of every metal alloy they come across off the top of their head. the best analogy i can come up with is it's like asking a nfl quarterback to explain to you the physics behind how a football flies through the air. there is a good chance the majority of quarterbacks playing in teh nfl wouldn't be able to explain it very well. that doesn't mean that the majoriy of quarterbacks can't throw a football. also, just because some nerd *can* explain the physics behind a spiral football flying through the air, doesn't mean he can actually throw one.
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May 31, 2017 00:32
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i think the industry standard lingo for complexity is just "it's big o of X" and not 
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May 31, 2017 00:32
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carry on then posted:you cannot be serious with this post I wrote lovely blog posts using complexity analysis, I'm a dorkass nerd. I don't resent this stuff, I just recognize that it's way overrated as a way for telling good programmers from bad ones. I'm not seriously reprimanding anyone here for not maintaining a code portfolio because I know that's barely relevant (I also don't do it). I'm just whining that this is not the way it should be.
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May 31, 2017 00:37
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School of How posted:the best analogy i can come up with is it's like asking a nfl quarterback to explain to you the physics behind how a football flies through the air. there is a good chance the majority of quarterbacks playing in teh nfl wouldn't be able to explain it very well. that doesn't mean that the majoriy of quarterbacks can't throw a football. also, just because some nerd *can* explain the physics behind a spiral football flying through the air, doesn't mean he can actually throw one. this is a bad analogy
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May 31, 2017 00:37
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School of How posted:tell that to the people who conduct interviews fair enough I guess but I've only ever dealt with big O in interviews on technical tests where they laid out an example algorithm and asked what the complexity was
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May 31, 2017 00:39
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Symbolic Butt posted:I wrote lovely blog posts using complexity analysis, I'm a dorkass nerd. I don't resent this stuff, I just recognize that it's way overrated as a way for telling good programmers from bad ones. I'm not seriously reprimanding anyone here for not maintaining a code portfolio because I know that's barely relevant (I also don't do it). I'm just whining that this is not the way it should be. if i could put big things on github without being sued and/or fired i'd do it. i've made some neat things
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May 31, 2017 00:57
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I have the Cloud Platform MCSA and I've had multiple people tell me just to poo poo on my resume,as it be just as valuable. Why are interviewers so mean 
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May 31, 2017 01:54
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Cirrhosis Johnson posted:I have the Cloud Platform MCSA and I've had multiple people tell me just to poo poo on my resume,as it be just as valuable. Why are interviewers so mean because azure is really bad
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May 31, 2017 02:04
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mishaq posted:because azure is really bad but they give us so much free stuff!!!!!!
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May 31, 2017 02:10
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a guy asked for salary right during the first interview, which I wasn't expected. I rambled a bit but he wanted a number (he's clearly done this more times than I have) so I just blurted out my current salary + 15% as what I make now.
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May 31, 2017 03:28
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DuckConference posted:a guy asked for salary right during the first interview, which I wasn't expected. I rambled a bit but he wanted a number (he's clearly done this more times than I have) so I just blurted out my current salary + 15% as what I make now. Goondolences
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May 31, 2017 03:42
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DuckConference posted:a guy asked for salary right during the first interview, which I wasn't expected. I rambled a bit but he wanted a number (he's clearly done this more times than I have) so I just blurted out my current salary + 15% as what I make now. lmao
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May 31, 2017 03:48
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DuckConference posted:a guy asked for salary right during the first interview, which I wasn't expected. I rambled a bit but he wanted a number (he's clearly done this more times than I have) so I just blurted out my current salary + 15% as what I make now.
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May 31, 2017 03:54
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Elysiume posted:was this with a manager or HR person? I'm just imagining a random dev being like "so what do you make" as a really bad icebreaker nah it was with the head cheese
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May 31, 2017 04:02
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hobbesmaster posted:i hear bloody knows how to do this properly
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May 31, 2017 13:12
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Rex-Goliath posted:apple and the other big ones are smarter than dramatically lowballing prospects. at the absolute worst you're just a bit shorter than what you could have negotiated but it'll wash out long term. don't lose sleep over it. only the small fries who genuinely need to cut every corner and are dumb enough to short the people building the very foundation of their company do it. or oracle. or if you are a woman, then all bets are off.
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