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RCarr posted:No, one is literally illegal while the other is not. If I whipped a baseball at you when you were walking down the street at 98 MPH and nailed you in the hip would you just be "well it's always been this way so I'l let him go" or would you call the cops on me.
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May 31, 2017 15:09
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Comparisons between pro sports and your average workaday office are almost always bad (see: Pillar, Kevin). Broadly speaking I'm a fan of the internal enforcement mechanisms in sports. 1) they're entertaining, and 2) they actually do serve a purpose both in competition, and as a safety valve. My only real complaint about this Strickland thing is that he didn't get his rear end kicked more thoroughly.
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May 31, 2017 15:10
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RCarr posted:No, one is literally illegal while the other is not. Just because it doesn't get prosecuted doesn't make it legal.
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May 31, 2017 15:10
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The only reservation I would have about lengthy suspensions (say ~20 games for a starter) for intentional beanings is that in every sport people are notoriously awful at actually figuring out what's intentional. They tend to both play favorites and screw over people if the NHL is anything to go by.IcePhoenix posted:If I whipped a baseball at you when you were walking down the street at 98 MPH and nailed you in the hip would you just be "well it's always been this way so I'l let him go" or would you call the cops on me. I'd be pretty impressed at your arm once I got up honestly.
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May 31, 2017 15:10
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IcePhoenix posted:If I whipped a baseball at you when you were walking down the street at 98 MPH and nailed you in the hip would you just be "well it's always been this way so I'l let him go" or would you call the cops on me. Being hit by a pitch is very clearly an assumed risk when playing baseball, it is not when walking down the sidewalk. This is like in hockey threads when people want players prosecuted for nasty hits - it doesn't work that way.
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May 31, 2017 15:13
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IcePhoenix posted:If I whipped a baseball at you when you were walking down the street at 98 MPH and nailed you in the hip would you just be "well it's always been this way so I'l let him go" or would you call the cops on me. No, because it has never been that way? That makes no sense. See: bewbies posted:Being hit by a pitch is very clearly an assumed risk when playing baseball, it is not when walking down the sidewalk. This is like in hockey threads when people want players prosecuted for nasty hits - it doesn't work that way.
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May 31, 2017 15:14
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bewbies posted:Being hit by a pitch is very clearly an assumed risk when playing baseball, it is not when walking down the sidewalk. This is like in hockey threads when people want players prosecuted for nasty hits - it doesn't work that way. Getting hit by a car when walking down the street is an assumed risk as well but that doesn't make it not a crime if someone does it intentionally. Grittybeard posted:The only reservation I would have about lengthy suspensions (say ~20 games for a starter) for intentional beanings is that in every sport people are notoriously awful at actually figuring out what's intentional. They tend to both play favorites and screw over people if the NHL is anything to go by. There are cases where it's blatantly intentional (like this one) where I think you can and should throw the book at them. Otherwise I wouldn't bust out the big suspensions.
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May 31, 2017 15:15
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Are you seriously advocating that criminal charges be pressed when a HBP is deemed intentional? What the hell is the point of this metaphor?
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May 31, 2017 15:16
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Inspector_666 posted:Are you seriously advocating that criminal charges be pressed when a HBP is deemed intentional? He asked why everyone wanted the pitcher to be suspended longer and I used a workplace metaphor that spiraled out of control because even though I stated "you can't involve police" he still fell back on "well no becuz it's illegal!" and "it's always been this way!  "vvv It's been that way since like a week after the injury  vvv
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May 31, 2017 15:17
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I love the "it's always been this way" excuse for why something shouldn't be punished Also just noticed the change to IcePhoenix's av   e: and lol if you think the Giants are going to miss Strickland for six games anywhere near as much as the Nats will miss Harper for four
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May 31, 2017 15:18
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IcePhoenix posted:He asked why everyone wanted the pitcher to be suspended longer and I used a workplace metaphor that spiraled out of control because even though I stated "you can't involve police" he still fell back on "well no becuz it's illegal!" and "it's always been this way! I didn't realize he was a starting pitcher (probably because he's not), so I wasn't sure why everyone was calling for a punishment that is above and beyond what is generally handed out for this type of incident. Also, once it was stated that the intentional HBP was not provoked, and was just out of pride/spite, I pretty much agreed instantly. Like, if you feel that the system is wrong, I get it, but that doesn't mean I should agree that this one pitcher should suddenly have the book thrown at him for every single injustice by a pitcher in MLB history.
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May 31, 2017 15:20
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IcePhoenix posted:Getting hit by a car when walking down the street is an assumed risk as well but that doesn't make it not a crime if someone does it intentionally. That is a completely different legal principle. Unless a pitcher does something like deliberately throwing a ball at a guys face, and you can prove they did so, getting hit by a pitch is and will always be an assumed risk in a baseball game and trying to argue it should be prosecuted is idiotic.
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May 31, 2017 15:21
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IcePhoenix posted:He asked why everyone wanted the pitcher to be suspended longer and I used a workplace metaphor that spiraled out of control because even though I stated "you can't involve police" he still fell back on "well no becuz it's illegal!" and "it's always been this way! With the steak edit? How did I miss that? RCarr posted:I didn't realize he was a starting pitcher (probably because he's not), so I wasn't sure why everyone was calling for a punishment that is above and beyond what is generally handed out for this type of incident. Also, once it was stated that the intentional HBP was not provoked, and was just out of pride/spite, I pretty much agreed instantly. He's not a starting pitcher, he's a relief pitcher, but even then he's not going to pitch every game. And six games is having the book thrown at you for every injustice by a pitcher in history now? He threw a 98 mph fastball at the best player in the NL for having the audacity to hit two homeruns off him three years ago, boo loving hoo he's suspended six games
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May 31, 2017 15:22
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RCarr posted:Also, once it was stated that the intentional HBP was not provoked, and was just out of pride/spite, I pretty much agreed instantly. What is the type of thing that would provoke an HBP? Also somebody is going to have to be the first person who gets a proper punishment for doing it. "I didn't know I couldn't do that" is a really lovely defense when you uh, do know you aren't supposed to do that.
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May 31, 2017 15:23
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Inspector_666 posted:What is the type of thing that would provoke an HBP? Having a teammate thrown at, or injured on a reckless play, showboating, talking poo poo, being an rear end in a top hat, etc. Haven't we all watched the same sport all our life? The first person to be punished will be the first person to intentionally throw at someone after the MLB makes a rule with an appropriate punishment. Not when some fans on a message board say so.
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May 31, 2017 15:24
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RCarr posted:Having a teammate thrown at, or injured on a reckless play, showboating, talking poo poo, being an rear end in a top hat, etc. Haven't we all watched the same sport all our life? Intruder posted:He threw a 98 mph fastball at the best player in the NL for having the audacity to hit two homeruns off him three years ago, boo loving hoo he's suspended six games
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May 31, 2017 15:25
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Grittybeard posted:The only reservation I would have about lengthy suspensions (say ~20 games for a starter) for intentional beanings is that in every sport people are notoriously awful at actually figuring out what's intentional. They tend to both play favorites and screw over people if the NHL is anything to go by. I'd say a 6 game suspension for intentionally throwing at someone and 20 games for throwing at someone with intent to injure. Honestly, I feel like that second one needs to be longer, but I just don't see it getting longer. I think that's honestly enough to make people not intentionally try to hit a batter.
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May 31, 2017 15:25
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bewbies posted:That is a completely different legal principle. Unless a pitcher does something like deliberately throwing a ball at a guys face, and you can prove they did so, getting hit by a pitch is and will always be an assumed risk in a baseball game and trying to argue it should be prosecuted is idiotic. I wasn't arguing it should be prosecuted, like I said, the whole thing spiraled out of control. RCarr posted:I didn't realize he was a starting pitcher (probably because he's not), so I wasn't sure why everyone was calling for a punishment that is above and beyond what is generally handed out for this type of incident. Also, once it was stated that the intentional HBP was not provoked, and was just out of pride/spite, I pretty much agreed instantly. I think if you want to get rid of the intentional bean balls (which you should) then you have to start hard. Someone suggested ten games and I think that would have been good. When baseball started steroid testing they started with a 50 game suspension (which has increased) and a three strikes and you're out policy on failed tests because they wanted to kill it dead. I'm not saying you should ban repeat offenders of beanings, but for blatantly intentional ones they should be doing more, imo. Intruder posted:With the steak edit? How did I miss that? It's pretty subtle and I never really called it out aside from a couple posts in the FARThouse
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May 31, 2017 15:26
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Inspector_666 posted:Also somebody is going to have to be the first person who gets a proper punishment for doing it. "I didn't know I couldn't do that" is a really lovely defense when you uh, do know you aren't supposed to do that. To be fair if they're ever going to do it they should probably announce it in the offseason and make it a point of emphasis to get the word out to everyone. Give the Tony La Russa's of the world time to digest the idea that it's not actually a good thing to do.
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May 31, 2017 15:26
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RCarr posted:Having a teammate thrown at, or injured on a reckless play, showboating, talking poo poo, being an rear end in a top hat, etc. Haven't we all watched the same sport all our life? None of these are valid reasons! That's the point! Grittybeard posted:To be fair if they're ever going to do it they should probably announce it in the offseason and make it a point of emphasis to get the word out to everyone. Give the Tony La Russa's of the world time to digest the idea that it's not actually a good thing to do. Yeah, that's fine, but I'm also not gonna shed any tears if they make an impromptu decision about it.
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May 31, 2017 15:27
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Bird in a Blender posted:I'd say a 6 game suspension for intentionally throwing at someone and 20 games for throwing at someone with intent to injure. Honestly, I feel like that second one needs to be longer, but I just don't see it getting longer. I think that's honestly enough to make people not intentionally try to hit a batter. You'd have to get to the point where you're issuing suspensions at all for intentional beanings rather than issuing a warning to both dugouts. Strickland would have gotten no punishment if not for the fight
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May 31, 2017 15:27
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bewbies posted:Being hit by a pitch is very clearly an assumed risk when playing baseball, it is not when walking down the sidewalk. This is like in hockey threads when people want players prosecuted for nasty hits - it doesn't work that way. It does, sort of. Guys have been charged with assault for particularly bad hits. See the guy who clobbered the ref in a championship game in some lovely college league last year. There's been a couple NHL guys get charged for on-ice stuff over the years as well. The key thing is there's a different social contract in most pro sports so the threshold of what's considered an accepted risk is different.
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May 31, 2017 15:27
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Intruder posted:He's not a starting pitcher, he's a relief pitcher, but even then he's not going to pitch every game. And six games is having the book thrown at you for every injustice by a pitcher in history now? I can't even follow your thought process now. 6 games is the suspension he got. You are asking for a longer one. The longer suspension would be throwing the book at him, not the suspension which is the norm. Where did you get the idea that a 6 game suspension is throwing the book at him?
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May 31, 2017 15:28
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RCarr posted:I didn't realize he was a starting pitcher (probably because he's not), so I wasn't sure why everyone was calling for a punishment that is above and beyond what is generally handed out for this type of incident. Also, once it was stated that the intentional HBP was not provoked, and was just out of pride/spite, I pretty much agreed instantly. What hurts more, losing your star player for 4 games or losing a reliever who isn't your closer for 6?
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May 31, 2017 15:29
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bewbies posted:That is a completely different legal principle. Unless a pitcher does something like deliberately throwing a ball at a guys face, and you can prove they did so, getting hit by a pitch is and will always be an assumed risk in a baseball game and trying to argue it should be prosecuted is idiotic. there's precedent for legally pursuing players for hitting loving birds. A better hockey comparison would be a player blatantly trying to cut someone's jugular with a skate vs the assumed risk of a hit.
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May 31, 2017 15:29
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RCarr posted:I can't even follow your thought process now. 6 games is the suspension he got. You are asking for a longer one. The longer suspension would be throwing the book at him, not the suspension which is the norm. I'd love for you to find the post where I asked for a longer suspension or said they should throw the book at him. Hell, I'm glad and suprised he got suspended at all And "this is how it's always been" is still a lovely excuse for allowing beanballs
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May 31, 2017 15:30
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iospace posted:What hurts more, losing your star player for 4 games or losing a reliever who isn't your closer for 6? The answer is obvious. Harper is the one who escalated a common occurrence, into a fistfight, though. I'm not enough of a regular of baseball threads to know if this is something you guys bring up every time someone is thrown at, or if you're taking exception because it's Bryce Harper.
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May 31, 2017 15:32
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Bird in a Blender posted:I'd say a 6 game suspension for intentionally throwing at someone and 20 games for throwing at someone with intent to injure. I think his point was that it is really, really hard to determine which is which. Hockey and football both go through this on a weekly basis where the incident gets the Zapruder treatment and fans/sports shouting shows/league officials all try and divine what was in the assailant's head moments before the incident. Believe it or not fans of the respective teams believe either that "it was clearly accidental" or "he was clearly headhunting" depending on team affiliation, then the league hands down a punishment somewhere in the middle.
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May 31, 2017 15:32
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RCarr posted:The answer is obvious. Harper is the one who escalated a common occurrence, into a fistfight, though. I'm not enough of a regular of baseball threads to know if this is something you guys bring up every time someone is thrown at, or if you're taking exception because it's Bryce Harper. If you're going to argue "common occurrence" for beanballs then you can't hold charging the mound to a different standard as it too happens fairly (if less) frequently bewbies posted:I think his point was that it is really, really hard to determine which is which. Hockey and football both go through this on a weekly basis where the incident gets the Zapruder treatment and fans/sports shouting shows/league officials all try and divine what was in the assailant's head moments before the incident. Believe it or not fans of the respective teams believe either that "it was clearly accidental" or "he was clearly headhunting" depending on team affiliation, then the league hands down a punishment somewhere in the middle. And then you get a large number of people who say "That's football, stop pussifying the game"
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May 31, 2017 15:33
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Intruder posted:I'd love for you to find the post where I asked for a longer suspension or said they should throw the book at him. Hell, I'm glad and suprised he got suspended at all I guess I lumped you in to the other people who were in the discussion, so you're right. As to the "it's how it's always been" excuse, yea, but it's on MLB to address that, and until they do there's no use in complaining. Intruder posted:If you're going to argue "common occurrence" for beanballs then you can't hold charging the mound to a different standard as it too happens fairly (if less) frequently A beanball is a pitch intentionally thrown at a batter's head, though. This was not a beanball. I'm honestly all for harsh and severe punishment for throwing at someone's head. That is just amazingly reckless/dangerous/malicious.
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May 31, 2017 15:34
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RCarr posted:The answer is obvious. Harper is the one who escalated a common occurrence, into a fistfight, though. I'm not enough of a regular of baseball threads to know if this is something you guys bring up every time someone is thrown at, or if you're taking exception because it's Bryce Harper. Thank you for giving your beer to Craptacular
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May 31, 2017 15:36
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RCarr posted:As to the "it's how it's always been" excuse, yea, but it's on MLB to address that, and until they do there's no use in complaining. If nobody complains, though, MLB is less likely to see the need to change it.
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May 31, 2017 15:37
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RCarr posted:I guess I lumped you in to the other people who were in the discussion, so you're right. As to the "it's how it's always been" excuse, yea, but it's on MLB to address that, and until they do there's no use in complaining. Which they appear to be trying, in their halfassed way, to do with this incident! They recognize that Strickland was a giant shitbag and it resulted in Harper escalating it, but the whole thing would never have happened without the beanball to begin with so both men got suspensions. And even among general baseball culture and acceptable beanballs to send a message, most players I've seen have said you toss it at mid 80s into the batter's hip, not scorch a 98 mpher (granted they were reacting to balls thrown at the head) quote:A beanball is a pitch intentionally thrown at a batter's head, though. This was not a beanball. I'm honestly all for harsh and severe punishment for throwing at someone's head. That is just amazingly reckless/dangerous/malicious. Now you're just getting into semantics Intruder fucked around with this message at 15:39 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 15:37
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RCarr posted:I guess I lumped you in to the other people who were in the discussion, so you're right. As to the "it's how it's always been" excuse, yea, but it's on MLB to address that, and until they do there's no use in complaining. That's splitting hairs, and you know it. The long and short of it, Hunter threw a 98 mph fastball directly at Harper, and now he's sitting out for 6 games. When your catcher stands there and doesn't even try to bail you out, you done hosed up.
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May 31, 2017 15:38
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RCarr posted:The answer is obvious. Harper is the one who escalated a common occurrence, into a fistfight, though. I'm not enough of a regular of baseball threads to know if this is something you guys bring up every time someone is thrown at, or if you're taking exception because it's Bryce Harper. There's an awful lot of precedent that says charging the mound after getting deliberately plunked is at least tacitly acceptable - the league obviously can't condone the behavior but they certainly don't want it gone from the game, either (look at all the media coverage this has put on one of the league's marquee players). I'm probably more into fighting and violence in baseball more than most posters and thus I'd be fine with Harper just getting a fine, or a very short suspension. In this case especially, Strickland was totally off the reservation with his own childish vendetta. He unilaterally instigated the incident, and having to answer for that behavior with fighting is not only entertaining but also the moral and just thing.
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May 31, 2017 15:41
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iospace posted:That's splitting hairs, and you know it. The long and short of it, Hunter threw a 98 mph fastball directly at Harper, and now he's sitting out for 6 games. When your catcher stands there and doesn't even try to bail you out, you done hosed up. I don't disagree the suspension could be a few more games, but I don't see it as some unbelievable malicious act. That's all. He wasn't trying to injure the guy.
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May 31, 2017 15:42
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RCarr posted:I don't disagree the suspension could be a few more games, but I don't see it as some unbelievable malicious act. That's all. He wasn't trying to injure the guy. Dig up
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May 31, 2017 15:43
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Just have automatic suspensions for beanballs outside 1 foot of the zone or at head height. Intent shouldnt matter, this is dangerous behavior that needs to be punished.
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May 31, 2017 15:44
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Intruder posted:And even among general baseball culture and acceptable beanballs to send a message, most players I've seen have said you toss it at mid 80s into the batter's hip, not scorch a 98 mpher (granted they were reacting to balls thrown at the head) The funny thing is that if he had just plunked him in the hip with a low/mid 80s fastball instead of rearing back and throwing it as hard as he can this whole situation would be different.
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May 31, 2017 15:44
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RCarr posted:I don't disagree the suspension could be a few more games, but I don't see it as some unbelievable malicious act. That's all. He wasn't trying to injure the guy. Changing the culture has to start somewhere. That's why you don't have 80's style fights in the NBA anymore, they forced a culture change IcePhoenix posted:The funny thing is that if he had just plunked him in the hip with a low/mid 80s fastball instead of rearing back and throwing it as hard as he can this whole situation would be different. Though it would still be idiotic that he held onto a three year grudge against a guy for doing his job
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May 31, 2017 15:46
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