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Senor P. posted:People with mental illness are every where. Irregardless of their political or religious beliefs. less conflation of violent racists with mentally ill people would be awesome, tia
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May 31, 2017 09:49
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anthonypants posted:If you've discovered a method of bringing about a socialist state in this country without a violent uprising I'd like to hear it. Historically, most of the violence is against revolutionaries. It is the counter revolutionaries that will turn to fascist gangs and military repression. Your statement isn't exactly saying the revolutionaries will be the violent party, but I think it should be clear which side must resort to violence. It is the ruling class which will, and is already using violence to keep themselves in power. That is the role of the state, with their police and military forces. Reene posted:less conflation of violent racists with mentally ill people would be awesome, tia Yeah, this. People with mental illness are more likely to be the target of violence. Fascists are created by a capitalist society, and taught to be violent.
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May 31, 2017 15:30
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DevNull posted:Historically, most of the violence is against revolutionaries. It is the counter revolutionaries that will turn to fascist gangs and military repression. Your statement isn't exactly saying the revolutionaries will be the violent party, but I think it should be clear which side must resort to violence. It is the ruling class which will, and is already using violence to keep themselves in power. That is the role of the state, with their police and military forces. Communist revolutionaries have a very strong history of using only peaceful methods, and definitely would never resort to genocide Really how the poo poo can you look at... any successful communist revolution ever, and decide it was only violence by the ruling class? Historical communists don't have the greatest record w.r.t peaceful revolutions.
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May 31, 2017 16:57
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revolutions in general aren't peaceful given that people in power tend to want to preserve their power at any cost the point is that there is not presently an absence of violence. the violence is merely extremely one-sided.
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May 31, 2017 17:10
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The Soviets were only very briefly a worker's state. Funny how over a half dozen imperial powers invading the fledgling soviets did such a good job of demolishing the revolutionaries that successfully cast off the chains of bourgeois control. The bureaucracy was all that remained, and the bureaucracy was never again a vehicle of the workers, becoming nothing but a new chain upon their necks under Stalin. In addition, clearly this Democracy thing will never work out. You see what happened after the French Revolution? Tsk, tsk, you should never try to abandon monarchy, all you'll get is a Reign of Terror. To say nothing of the genocidal slave state that became of that whole "American experiment". It's obvious we should never try to fight for a better future or to try to abolish existing institutions of oppression and exploitation, since clearly the material conditions that generate the trends of history are static and uniform and it's not as though there is actually a complex and dynamic dialectic that determines the course of human events.
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May 31, 2017 17:12
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Back on topic, there are anti-Muslim demonstrations taking place in Portland this weekend, and in Seattle next weekend. I know comrades in Portland have been building a big coalition protest against that, and locally in Seattle CAIR and MAPS, two Muslim rights organizations, have begun to organize a loose coalition for the coming action. I was happy to see some representatives of the more militant left factions present and willing to consider their perspective, because it seems like the CAIR and MAPS representatives want this to be as peaceful as possible, and seeing as how they are representatives of the groups who are being targeted by these racist actions, I think it's only right that their ideas about how to organize a counterprotest should take precedence.
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May 31, 2017 17:23
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James Garfield posted:Communist revolutionaries have a very strong history of using only peaceful methods, and definitely would never resort to genocide lol
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May 31, 2017 17:27
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Some labor groups seem to be mobilizing as well. https://twitter.com/coreypein/status/869719332397305858
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May 31, 2017 17:27
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Just make sure you bring a knife to your next protest. They seem much more effective than concealed firearms, tbh
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May 31, 2017 17:41
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Peaceful protest is an oxymoron. If its a protest, it threatens the interests of those in power, who will always resort to violence to protect those interests. Then again, making lots of noise and ultimately doing nothing is a hallmark of liberals who play at changing things.
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May 31, 2017 17:45
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Error 404 posted:Peaceful protest is an oxymoron. And the best example of a non-peaceful protest would be the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation.
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May 31, 2017 18:05
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So there's been one thing that's been bothering me about the coverage following the events of last Friday, and I think I've figured it out. Less than a year ago, a black teenager was run down by a white supremacist in a pickup truck in one of the less affluent suburbs of Portland. There was some media coverage and some discussion, but it mostly got ignored - it happened in a bad part of town and the victim was No Angeltm. Incidentally, it was this post (which I haven't really seen any discussion of or national media attention on) that jogged that recollection: Doorknob Slobber posted:More racist poo poo in the PNW yesterday. I've seen lots of celebration of the lives of the men on the MAX and I've seen lots of coverage about how they were heroes. The main narrative I've picked up on is basically "Brave white men give their lives to mentally ill!!! (that part seems to be very important to mention) racist in defense of non-white teenagers." Maybe this is looking too hard, but it almost feels like the main narrative is essentially "Brave white men give thier lives to mentally ill!!! racist thereby absolving Portland of racial animosity forever." The "Trimet Heroes" talk and the loving coverage almost seems like it's a reflection of the victims being from the same tribe as the majority of this very white city. I'm honestly unsure that the coverage would be so dramatic and overwhelming if the victims had been the two women, or people of color.
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May 31, 2017 18:09
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I think it is important to keep in mind that the the Longshoremen kicked off the first general strike in the US with their refusal to load arms headed for the White Army in Russia. The IWW was also pretty drat militant and involved at the time. While that was a very long time ago, we should be happy to see a possible resurgence of their involvement. Mobilizing a group to head to Portland isn't overthrowing the violent police state, but it is a step up from most things that have been happening on the labor front.
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May 31, 2017 18:16
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If it were two women there would almost certainly be more coverage, especially if they were white ladies.
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May 31, 2017 18:18
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CongoJack posted:If it were two women there would almost certainly be more coverage, especially if they were white ladies. But they very decidedly were not white women? Otherwise, I'm not sure how this counters my point?
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May 31, 2017 18:24
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xrunner posted:But they very decidedly were not white women? Otherwise, I'm not sure how this counters my point? Sorry I meant if the dudes who got knifed defending the girls were women instead there would be more coverage. Edit: whoops sorry misread your post, Yea if the girls had been knifed we probably wouldn't have heard nearly as much about it.
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May 31, 2017 18:29
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anthonypants posted:I think the best example of a peaceful protest in recent memory would be the DAPL water protectors. Despite being unarmed they faced overwhelming violence, and it's very likely that if they employed violence in any capacity they would have been wiped out, the media would have helpfully explained to everyone that they got what was coming to them, and the pipeline would have been built anyway. I'm not sure what your point is, but the DAPL was built, there was even an executive order to expedite it. The non-peaceful "protestors" at the wildlife refuge won since they were tried and acquitted of all federal charges. So what we can learn from this? If you're white and want to be violent you can do so and win, but if you're brown and you're non-violent you lose. Which I guess is being reflected in this thread, trying to justify our current way of life as if it can't be changed without the death of countless people or the rise of an even worse regime. I just don't understand why we can't have a functioning society, did other socialist democracies have to have a violent revolution to get where they're at? What's the history in places like Sweden and Norway? I'm sure they weren't always like that, why can't we move in that direction? Why are some of you so adamant about preserving the status quo? I guess life is probably pretty good for you, so much that you're willing to just accept that hundreds of people are being killed by police each year and that families are going hungry and into debt because they can't afford access to healthcare and other basic services.
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May 31, 2017 19:06
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ElCondemn posted:I'm not sure what your point is, but the DAPL was built, there was even an executive order to expedite it. The non-peaceful "protestors" at the wildlife refuge won since they were tried and acquitted of all federal charges.
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May 31, 2017 19:08
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anthonypants posted:I believe that there is a difference between protest and revolution. I'm just saying protesting clearly isn't enough, we need to accept that we may need a revolution and be willing to move in that direction if necessary. But I'm certain if people were actually willing to make a change it would happen, without a revolution even. What is being asked for isn't anything unrealistic or absurd. I'm just lamenting the fact that so many people (even those in this thread) are talking about this poo poo like it's crazy to even bring it up.
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May 31, 2017 19:18
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ElCondemn posted:So what we can learn from this? If you're white and want to be violent you can do so and win, but if you're brown and you're non-violent you lose. Which I guess is being reflected in this thread, trying to justify our current way of life as if it can't be changed without the death of countless people or the rise of an even worse regime. Letter from Birmingham Jail By Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963 "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
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May 31, 2017 19:21
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Oh, is this the part of the thread where we purity test everyone and leftism further shrinks into irrelevance? Neat. Personally I believe that you can have an argument about methodology without immediately accusing everyone of being class traitors and such, but given the extremely effective history of leftist protests I'm sure you all know best.
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May 31, 2017 19:33
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I got felt out by multiple ilwu members after the election for my political leanings. While there are there is the occasional nutter, https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3708238&pagenumber=113&perpage=40#post472857215 The overwhelming majority of them I encounter are old school democrats with no love for Trump or Trump supportors. Someone put a Trump sticker on a stevedores car to gently caress with him. They didn't treat it well. They don't gently caress around. They take seriously the history of thier past strikes. At least in Seattle and Tacoma they are competent and organized. It be a big deal if they were involved.
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May 31, 2017 19:43
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Peachfart posted:Oh, is this the part of the thread where we purity test everyone and leftism further shrinks into irrelevance? Neat. Feel free to argue about methodology, right now all you seem to be doing is making sarcastic remarks and dismissing any talk that you find too extreme. Sorry if it feels like a "purity test" to you, but feel free to gently caress off unless you are actually interested in talking about the state of our society.
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May 31, 2017 19:46
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Peachfart posted:Oh, is this the part of the thread where we purity test everyone and leftism further shrinks into irrelevance? Neat.
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May 31, 2017 19:49
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In lighter news, does anyone remember Mary Kay Letourneau
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May 31, 2017 20:01
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anthonypants posted:Do you have an actual "argument about methodology" to present or is it just more wailing about how posting on the internet is ineffective Sure. If you want full communism now, consider not immediately attacking the regular left as these people usually agree 90% with you. And you will need all the allies you can get, considering this country elected Donald Trump as president. And maybe, just maybe, we can move this country leftwards. And for those of you who think that all we need to do is revolt and magically leftist policies will appear, it is far more likely that the better funded and more powerful far right will simply dispense with any pretense of democracy and just take over.
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May 31, 2017 20:04
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Peachfart posted:Sure. If you want full communism now, consider not immediately attacking the regular left as these people usually agree 90% with you.
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May 31, 2017 20:08
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I always say if someone is not interested in policies or practices that will cause the redistribution of wealth, they are not on the left. At best these are people who can be persuaded, at worst, they are obstacles whose sympathies ultimately lie with the ruling class. If a person goes on an internet forum to poo poo talk the left, odds are they are not the former type of liberal. Or, at least, they're not the kind of person who soothing, cajoling words should be wasted on.
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May 31, 2017 20:13
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Peachfart posted:Sure. If you want full communism now, consider not immediately attacking the regular left as these people usually agree 90% with you. Who attacked you? Who is attacking the left at all? What about a socialist platform is so unreasonable to the "regular left"? Are you sure you don't mean the "right" when you say "regular left"? I'm not really sure how you expect liberal/progressive socialist programs will magic into existence if people like you keep shooting them down as unrealistic. What is your proposed solution if any attempt to move left will just be quashed by the "powerful far right"? To me it just seems like you're saying there is no solution and any movement towards a solution is pointless.
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May 31, 2017 20:14
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ElCondemn posted:Who attacked you? Who is attacking the left at all? What about a socialist platform is so unreasonable to the "regular left"? Are you sure you don't mean the "right" when you say "regular left"? I'm not really sure how you expect liberal/progressive socialist programs will magic into existence if people like you keep shooting them down as unrealistic.
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May 31, 2017 20:27
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ElCondemn posted:Who attacked you? Who is attacking the left at all? What about a socialist platform is so unreasonable to the "regular left"? Are you sure you don't mean the "right" when you say "regular left"? I'm not really sure how you expect liberal/progressive socialist programs will magic into existence if people like you keep shooting them down as unrealistic. Come on, the last few pages have been nothing more than a giant, circular firing squad. We have people seriously talking about full blown revolution while making GBS threads on those who are actually in the government actively working to make things better. Why are folks so concerned about trying to score rhetorical points and verbally burn people who likely agree on 99% of poo poo to begin with? What does that loving accomplish?
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May 31, 2017 20:54
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who was making GBS threads on people in government working to make things better I must have missed that also, https://twitter.com/dirquez/status/870000914928619520 unfortunate but unsurprising I wish I wasn't working that day so I could attend the counter-rally. if you're going please be safe. I have a pretty bad feeling about it.
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May 31, 2017 20:58
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In spite of Friday's murders, the nazis will get their rally this weekend https://twitter.com/dirquez/status/870001828984897536
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May 31, 2017 20:58
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Solkanar512 posted:Come on, the last few pages have been nothing more than a giant, circular firing squad. We have people seriously talking about full blown revolution while making GBS threads on those who are actually in the government actively working to make things better. Maybe you're reading something I'm not? I'm not sure what "firing squad" you're talking about. Be explicit, cite examples, I honestly am not sure who you think is being attacked. Who's asking for points? What is disagreeable about what is being said? anthonypants posted:In spite of Friday's murders, the nazis will get their rally this weekend Meanwhile they cancel BLM protests because scary black people might be there...
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May 31, 2017 20:59
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Liberals have historically always, and likely will always, ally with fascists against leftism. And no amount of handwringing about purity or circular firing squads will change that fact. Materially the space between you whatabouters and the people cheering on murderous pieces of poo poo is pretty thin, and shrinking every day Y'all wanna stop being treated like an obstacle? Then stop being an obstacle.
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May 31, 2017 21:10
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there absolutely is a contingent of (largely very young) leftists that do the ~purity~ bullshit (see leftbook) but lol if you think this thread is any of that
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May 31, 2017 21:15
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Error 404 posted:Y'all wanna stop being treated like an obstacle? Then stop being an obstacle. I recently saw this oatmeal comic that explains in a simple way why these people feel like they're being attacked. They're being faced with information that's contrary to their belief so they interpret it as an attack and lash out. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe I'm assuming these people are just having trouble coming to terms with the fact that their point of view is flawed and they need to start getting on board with the reality of what's happening.
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May 31, 2017 21:31
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ElCondemn posted:Maybe you're reading something I'm not? I'm not sure what "firing squad" you're talking about. Be explicit, cite examples, I honestly am not sure who you think is being attacked. In the last several pages there were folks who believed that anyone who wanted decent wages to be maintained for police were a traitor to the cause, RuanGacho in particular was poo poo on for trying to talk about community policing where he works. Then we had others who screamed about meltdowns when I pointed out the Sawant was an imperfect actor and advocated that unionized blue color labor needs to revolt against their employers and armed guards and unionized white color labor should be left to the wolves. We get it, lots of you think Everett is a complete shithole filled with rednecks and 4x4 trucks but maybe if you got to know a few of these folks you'd realize it's a lot more diverse than it first appears and you could gain a whole lot of needed support. I mean come on, we're all leftists here. Not everyone is going to be living in downtown Seattle or Portland, but that doesn't mean they don't hold leftist views.
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May 31, 2017 22:39
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Solkanar512 posted:I mean come on, we're all leftists here. That's where you're wrong kiddo. 
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May 31, 2017 22:51
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Error 404 posted:That's where you're wrong kiddo. I'm totally down with punching Nazis, so where are we disagreeing again?
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May 31, 2017 23:07
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