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Deptfordx posted:Everybody hates the Mutilator model anyway, just get rid of them. Enh; I'm not a fan of solutions that aren't realistic--GW just promised to support every model. I'd rather make them good. Would also consider just making Mutilators into "Possessed Terminators" in the system I proposed panascope posted:I like this, and I think a few armies could benefit from this kind of consolidation. Thanks. I like it as a way to give Chaos the ability to immediately create fluffy, super-elite units Also I agree--there's no reason that poo poo like Sternguard/Vanguard Vets have to be separate units and not just a Veteran upgrade for marine squads. 40k's oldest armies have too many units.
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May 31, 2017 21:24
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So, here's a 2500 point list I plan on trying out once my friends have finished with their lists. We're talking about doing some big games in late june or early july with battle reports. Could get it down to 2000 by dropping a razorback, predator, and maybe the terminators. Battalion detachment: HQ: Captain (98) Terminator librarian (161) Troops: Tactical squad (175) Tacitical squad (179) Infantry squad (60) Elites: Vanguard squad (163) Sternguard squad (114) Cataphractii terminators (245) Contemptor dreadnought (165) Guard veteran squad (127) Heavy support: Predator (171) Predator (171) Leman Russ (190) Dedicated transport: Razorback (100) Razorback (110) Chimera (93) Auxilliary support detachment: Devastator squad (178)
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May 31, 2017 21:25
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The Bee posted:Yeah, Primaris not using transports is either a hamfisted way of keeping them from replacing the rest of a Marine army, or an even more hilariously hamfisted attempt at forcing you to replace the rest of your army. I am getting a kick out of GW's horrible lack of subtlety here. Their transports will be out soon enough. I posted this in the death thread but here is their 
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May 31, 2017 21:31
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Genghis Cohen posted:I'm still trying to get my bearings on what the new rules mean (it's impossible to take in all the changes to tactics and strategy without playing some games) which is not bad any easier by the atrocious new manner of noting and assembling points costs. Is it just a sinister coincidence that this system makes it slightly harder for an experienced player to tot up his list, but orders of magnitude harder for a player reading leaked jpg files to figure out what the gently caress stuff costs? Actually, they specifically say you can't name your regiment the Militarum Tempestus. You could name them the Ringling Bros. Circus or the Booty Brigade, but not the Militarum Tempestus.
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May 31, 2017 21:31
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Cross posting from the oath thread. I loved painting this guy. When the dust finally settles he will be a giant spawn.  
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May 31, 2017 21:33
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Sharks Dont Sleep posted:Their transports will be out soon enough. I posted this in the death thread but here is their Looks like a Primaris Razorback, most likely. Would make sense, given their unit sizes and the lack of sponsons JackMack posted:Cross posting from the oath thread. I loved painting this guy. When the dust finally settles he will be a giant spawn. This is loving cool! Reminds me of Bumpy from the old claymation cartoon
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May 31, 2017 21:36
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Dark Apostle seems a decent cheap HQ. Hit's on a 2+, 4+ Invulnerable, plus a use his leadership and reroll hits buff for units in his bubble, and he only costs 76 points Vanilla.
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May 31, 2017 21:42
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Genghis Cohen posted:But yeah, IG structure is boned for the moment. Good. Platoons were a pain in the rear end and no one actually wanted the platoon command squad tax. If you want a 50 man blob bring conscripts. I did some list building this morning. No chapter tactics sucks. Mechanized space marines still seem alright, but marine spam should probably be done by jumpers unless we get some scouting rhinos at some point. Plasma will probably be the special weapon to spam. Pods are super over cost now that you can't deep strike an inch away and be safe most of the time and can't hold dreads. Stormtalons are trash on a stick with all their weapons being heavy. Calgar, Bobby G, and Lysander look pretty good. GK being 25 points a model hurts pretty bad. Vets in Chimeras seem ok, but not being able to shoot plasma out the top hatch makes them way worse (and all guns being heavy on the ride sucks). All the assassins look pretty ballin and seem dirt cheap. Inquisitors can hop in allied rides which is cute. Having to take 2 HQs in the main detachment thing is kind of lame, furthering my thought that Jumpers will be the way to go unless you sneak in a HQ that is also valuable.
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May 31, 2017 21:56
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Just double-checking my work here; there's currently no way to unlock Bikes as Troops for SM, is there? I imagine that would come in the Battletome equivalent.
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May 31, 2017 22:04
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PantsOptional posted:Just double-checking my work here; there's currently no way to unlock Bikes as Troops for SM, is there? I imagine that would come in the Battletome equivalent.
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May 31, 2017 22:12
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Safety Factor posted:There's a detachment that is centered around fast attack. You can totally run a biker army without anything to alter the FOC. Yeah, the fast attack one works great for that. It's a shame that you give up 2 command points but hopefully there'll be a white scars detachment down the road.
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May 31, 2017 22:13
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TheChirurgeon posted:You know these lists are all placeholders right Having to play with a list from the last edition that barely works in the current edition is one of the stupidest things GW does. I was hoping that releasing rules for all the factions at the start of 8th would try to curb some of that stupidity. There's no reason not to just put 5 minutes into making Thousand Sons as good as Death Guard or Blood Angels or Grey Knights or Space Wolves or Dark Angels... except that Nurgle is the new hotness and Space Marines get all the love. Its just typical "GW doesn't give a poo poo about chaos" but man, it sucks and don't try to piss on my face and tell me its raining. S.J. posted:Don't worry, Tzeentch just got a book, so they're fine - they won't get another book for 4 years or so. 
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:22 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 22:19
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JackMack posted:Cross posting from the oath thread. I loved painting this guy. When the dust finally settles he will be a giant spawn. This is disgusting and unsettling. Good show.
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May 31, 2017 22:20
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Zaphod42 posted:Having to play with a list from the last edition that barely works in the current edition is one of the stupidest things GW does. I was hoping that releasing rules for all the factions at the start of 8th would try to curb some of that stupidity. Yeah, I definitely feel bad for chaos players. Luckily the chaos player in our group played death guard.
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May 31, 2017 22:21
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Some more thoughts... Warbike HQs make a lot of sense. The Warbike gives Bosses and Painboyz a lot of flexibility with respect to managing auras, toughness goes up by 1, and Warbosses still gets to throw pet attack squigs at people. What's not to like? Big Mek Bikers might also be useful for giving coverage to nearby units with a KFF. Or you can fit a loving bike with a Shokk Attack Gun why the hell am I even thinking when I could be doing this. I would love for someone to look at the "Keepin' Order" rule and tell me WTF it's supposed to mean. Individual models don't flee? I think GW hosed up; the Blitza-Bommer is better in all ways than the Burna-Bommer and is also cheaper.
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May 31, 2017 22:22
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So, now that we've had time to read the changes, who seem like the big winners and losers of this edition so far?
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May 31, 2017 22:25
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Zaphod42 posted:Having to play with a list from the last edition that barely works in the current edition is one of the stupidest things GW does. I was hoping that releasing rules for all the factions at the start of 8th would try to curb some of that stupidity. It's not "5 minutes to make Thousand Sons as good as Death Guard or whatever." If you're doing it right, it's hours of playtesting for every single army that could have just been spent on making the "real" books. Creating placeholder lists for every army is basically the only way to make a fresh start for the rules this edition and that means some stuff will get shortchanged in the interim. Would you be happier if Death Guard just didn't get their own discipline for the next 3 weeks?
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May 31, 2017 22:25
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chutche2 posted:Yeah, I definitely feel bad for chaos players. Luckily the chaos player in our group played death guard. Lucky him. I do like the new death guard sculpts a LOT but man I love my new Rubrics and Scarab Occult models, they JUST came out, and I am just completely 100% disappointed in those rules. I am pretty excited about the Tyranid rules though and I have more 'nids than any other faction, so I'll just focus on the buggers for now I guess. Especially being able to mix and match Tyranids, GSC and even AM/IG is really really cool. The real kick in the pants though is they did bother making a Tzeentch and Slaanesh discipline, but they're only for Tzeentch and Slaanesh daemons. It would have been so easy to just say "Scarab Occult Sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcerers generate their powers from the Tzeentch chaos daemon discipline" and boom, you're done. You don't even have to spend time coming up with powers. They already did the work! TheChirurgeon posted:It's not "5 minutes to make Thousand Sons as good as Death Guard or whatever." If you're doing it right, it's hours of playtesting for every single army that could have just been spent on making the "real" books. Creating placeholder lists for every army is basically the only way to make a fresh start for the rules this edition and that means some stuff will get shortchanged in the interim. Would you be happier if Death Guard just didn't get their own discipline for the next 3 weeks? I'm fine with the list as it is short of the lack of powers for anybody other than death guard. The powers already exist for chaos demons and giving them access takes 5 minutes of editing the pdf. 
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May 31, 2017 22:27
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Zaphod42 posted:Having to play with a list from the last edition that barely works in the current edition is one of the stupidest things GW does. I was hoping that releasing rules for all the factions at the start of 8th would try to curb some of that stupidity. I too cannot think of any reason that GW didn't do full codex level work for every single army in the game, while maintaining balance, in time for the release of the new edition and then put all of those rules into five £15 books.
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May 31, 2017 22:27
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I too cannot think of any reason that GW didn't do full codex level work for every single army in the game, while maintaining balance, in time for the release of the new edition and then put all of those rules into five £15 books. But they basically did already? They just stopped short on psyker powers. I mean we don't have faction unique detachments or special artifacts for each sub-faction but I don't give a poo poo about that right now. I would be 100% fine with the current lists if not just for completely dicking over psykers with the "one power per turn" rule since you only have 3 powers total unless you're one of the special chosen few. (mostly space marines) EITHER: A ) allow me to use powers multiple times per turn OR B ) allow tzeentch and slaanesh access to the tzeentch and slaanesh disciplines that already exist so easy to fix and suddenly playing Thousand Sons would feel proper fluffy again. As it is, they're a shooty army and only Tzeentch Daemons give a poo poo about magic. Basically if we're limited to "one of each psychic power per turn" then really each faction should have the same number of powers (3 OR 6 for everybody; PICK ONE), or some factions are far more powerful at psykers than other factions. If you're going to have one faction be more powerful at psykers... maybe make it be the psyker faction? All of my complaints about this list are a consequence of the "one psychic ability per turn period" rule. If you get rid of that, all my complaints go away. Its a problem they created themselves and then didn't follow through on. Hopefully people will just houserule that we don't actually follow that rule and then I'll be a-ok. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:33 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 22:29
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More observations that have caught my eye from the chaos codex. - Daemon Princes can now get a ranged attack with a Warp Bolter. - Chosen can take a single Heavy Weapon as well as the usual upgrades. - Helbrues 'Crazed' rule, is now a flat buff, you get a bonus melee/ranged attack if you roll a 6 after taking damage. It's also 139 points Vanilla. - Typhus 'Destroyer Hive' is now a 2d6 Pistol attack, which means he's going to be incredibly nasty in melee. He gives Pox Walkers (Zombies) a good buff as well. - We finally see rules for the Blightbringer from the Starter set, and the giant bell is his melee weapon! Ok, I don't want to be obnoxious, so I'll stop there. All in all, not bad. Looks like a solid foundation on which to build a proper codex later if GW listens to feedback, and they do seem to be making an effort these days.
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May 31, 2017 22:30
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So it looks like Might of Heroes can target vehicles? I don't see anything that prevents it. I could give my contemptor dread +1 S, T, and A. Or a rhino for that matter.
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May 31, 2017 22:31
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Zaphod42 posted:Lucky him. I do like the new death guard sculpts a LOT but man I love my new Rubrics and Scarab Occult models, they JUST came out, and I am just completely 100% disappointed in those rules. Oh, wow, I completely missed those disciplines in my overview. That puts mixed-faction Chaos at 5 disciplines, ahead of mixed-faction Eldar by one and solidly in second place for sheer number of powers. That makes it all the weirder that Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children can't pick from their patron's lists, and that Nurgle inexplicably has two separate disciplines.
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May 31, 2017 22:33
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The Bee posted:So, now that we've had time to read the changes, who seem like the big winners and losers of this edition so far? I *think* jump packs got a huge boost this edition, between being able to deep strike with precision and being able to hit flyers. They seem like they're on par with Bikes now, which seem to give +1W in addition to +1T now. Zaphod42 posted:But they basically did already? They just stopped short on psyker powers. Lol no they didn't. There are no legion rules, no faction-specific strategems, and no vehicle upgrades. You can't just give Thousand Sons the daemon powers without testing them. Also seriously one of the powers only affects Tzeentch Daemons another is basically lovely smite, and the third is kind of neat but hard to pull off. You'll be OK until the real Codex hits.
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May 31, 2017 22:36
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Original google docs files aren't all working for me, anyone got another link?
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May 31, 2017 22:37
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Thinking about it, I guess there's no reason to need Bikes as Troops anyway since anything can score and there doesn't appear to be any form of ObSec any more.
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May 31, 2017 22:38
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Uroboros posted:Original google docs files aren't all working for me, anyone got another link? Reddit has everything.
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May 31, 2017 22:38
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If they just said "Death Guard replace all psyker powers with contagion discipline" it wouldn't be as awkward, but they can take both plaguecasters who have contagion spells AND they can take chaos sorcerers with the normal spells. Its that 3 versus 6 that really kills me. But like I said, I'll just play 'nids. They get some really cool toys from the look of things this edition. Not being in synapse is far less punishing, and being within synapse is very rewarding, hive tyrants get cool psyker powers, trygons and mawlocs are EXTREMELY dependable now... Trygons are basically my favorite model in the game and I haaaaaated how hosed up their reserves rules were in 7th. Thank gently caress. You can drop them first turn every time now if you want to, on your first movement phase!!! Terror from the deep indeed  PantsOptional posted:Thinking about it, I guess there's no reason to need Bikes as Troops anyway since anything can score and there doesn't appear to be any form of ObSec any more. I'm okay with this
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May 31, 2017 22:39
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Reddit has everything. Do they have a PDF link by chance?
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May 31, 2017 22:44
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Good god I just realized the Obelisk... does mortal wounds to enemies with the Fly keyword within 18" and can deep strike 12" away from an enemy. Guess which army in this game has the Fly keyword now on all of their jet packs... 
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May 31, 2017 22:45
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Zaphod42 posted:If they just said "Death Guard replace all psyker powers with contagion discipline" it wouldn't be as awkward, but they can take both plaguecasters who have contagion spells AND they can take chaos sorcerers with the normal spells. Hear, hear, nid buddy. I'm glad a Trygon's going to be so much more than a cool centerpiece this edition.
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May 31, 2017 22:46
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Uroboros posted:Do they have a PDF link by chance? Yeah. Front page.
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May 31, 2017 22:56
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I wonder if the aura effects work on the unit generating the aura. For example does a Painboy ignore wounds on a 6+? Physician, heal thyself.
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May 31, 2017 22:59
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The Bee posted:So, now that we've had time to read the changes, who seem like the big winners Games Workshop The Bee posted:and losers of this edition so far? Their customers General Olloth posted:Good god I just realized the Obelisk... Yeah, this is rad
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May 31, 2017 22:59
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Ok, so If I wanted to form an old-fashioned command squad now. I'd have to take a HQ, then a Apothecary, a Comany Champion, a Company Ancient, and two Company Veterans. 5 Seperate units, including 4 Elite slots, who have to move, charge, and fight independantly. That seems clunky as hell.
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May 31, 2017 22:59
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The Bee posted:Actually, they specifically say you can't name your regiment the Militarum Tempestus. You could name them the Ringling Bros. Circus or the Booty Brigade, but not the Militarum Tempestus. How can this company be one step ahead of me in that regard (good spot btw) but still make a lascannon the same cost as a missile launcher, or fail to change the relative uselessness of mortars in any way at all for like the 4th edition in a row? The Taurox missile launcher is literally just 2 missile launchers, but costs 50pts to a missile launcher's 20. I love the playing around with new rules and trying to understand them, but it's all just so baffling. I fully agree with the people pointing out that these are just hold-you-over lists. But for most armies they'll be in place for at least a year. Not sure I really believe that competitive players tested them rigorously and failed to spot a lot of the obvious weirdnesses some changes bring (or maybe they just weren't listened to).
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May 31, 2017 23:00
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The Bee posted:Hear, hear, nid buddy. I'm glad a Trygon's going to be so much more than a cool centerpiece this edition. Have you tried making a list with them though? poo poo is crazy. Like, base points plus you have to add 60 points for three scything talons (that don't do anything past the first 2) and them like 21 points for the gun and 1 point for the tail unless it is a wednesday. There are like, 10 versions of the scything talon, all with different points depending on what model you buy them for.
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May 31, 2017 23:01
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Naramyth posted:Good. Platoons were a pain in the rear end and no one actually wanted the platoon command squad tax. I am not really complaining about change for the sake of it, just noting that the detachment system seems stretched by IG units. The Pl comd tax is now just odd units of 4 vets who can all take special weapons (so kind of a bonus I guess?) while we can get autocannon HW squads for 57ppm and PG/AC infantry squads (these are just what my models have as an example) for 62. It's strange for them to be counted in the same way as the other, far more elite armies in the game. Assassins do look clutch and chimeras seem clunky, I do agree with you there. EDIT: can anyone see any attached meaning to the 'Bike', 'Vehicle' or 'Cavalry' keywords? I assumed when the new edition first started to surface that they'd have some sort of truncated special rule (like how 'Fly' affects falling back. But all I can find is that lots of auras/psychic powers explicitly effect Infantry only; some weapons wound Vehicles differently. Damned if I can find out what Bikes do differently from anyone else (if anything). Is it now just a legacy thing? Genghis Cohen fucked around with this message at 23:09 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 23:06
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Genghis Cohen posted:I am not really complaining about change for the sake of it, just noting that the detachment system seems stretched by IG units. The Pl comd tax is now just odd units of 4 vets who can all take special weapons (so kind of a bonus I guess?) while we can get autocannon HW squads for 57ppm and PG/AC infantry squads (these are just what my models have as an example) for 62. It's strange for them to be counted in the same way as the other, far more elite armies in the game. They don't specifically do anything differently (I think Fly and Character are the only exceptions to this in the base rules) Sometimes stuff has auras that apply to specific keywords. IE you might have the named ork guy on a bike buff Infantry and Bike.
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May 31, 2017 23:14
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JackMack posted:Cross posting from the oath thread. I loved painting this guy. When the dust finally settles he will be a giant spawn. This is horrible. Well done! Can't wait to shoot it up next goonocalypse! 8th seems Cool and Good so far.
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May 31, 2017 23:23
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