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George posted:This thread is super ridiculous lately. Folks are being competitive and hostile when they'd have got better results being explanatory. Nobody wants to say they misread each other's intentions, so they're spiraling tighter toward the parts they disagree on trying to demonstrate how those parts demonize the whole. This isn't an unreasonable view.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:33
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Javid posted:Watching people who agree on almost everything call each other Nazis over relatively minor differences in how they want to achieve the same goals is pretty much how this thread rolls now, I guess.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:36
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seiferguy posted:I feel like there were a decent amount of Boeing machinists who voted Trump because "globalization bad" and masculinity issues. I doubt we'll ever get a true number but I remember the Seattle Times doing articles on people like that. I talked to the ones I knew back in 2016 and they all planned to vote Trump. One guy is also known for wearing a gaudy ISIS HUNTER t-shirt to work.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:45
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George posted:This thread is super ridiculous lately. Folks are being competitive and hostile when they'd have got better results being explanatory. Nobody wants to say they misread each other's intentions, so they're spiraling tighter toward the parts they disagree on trying to demonstrate how those parts demonize the whole. It is hostility toward the jackasses that act like they are the only people being reasonable. The hostility is just online though, and not happening between people actually doing poo poo. I am seeing more of the petty fights fading away and groups coming together.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:08
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DevNull posted:It is hostility toward the jackasses that act like they are the only people being reasonable. Yet you can't even be bothered to say why someone is acting like a jackass. You just declare it by fiat and continue refusing to discuss any of the issues being brought up, just like George pointed out. anthonypants posted:More of concern is the drive-by posters who see a bunch of unread posts and check out the thread, only to throw their hands up at reading all those words and decide they must've been called a Nazi in there somewhere. Hmm... DevNull posted:No, we just get a little upset after a neo-nazi murders two people and a bunch of liberals are more concerned with "hearing both sides" It's pretty loving clear that DevNull is conflating my call for people in this thread to take a moment and listen to each other with a more general "hearing both sides" that somehow includes neo-nazi murderers. What part isn't clear to you? Why do so many presume the worst in others rather than just asking for clarification?
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Jun 1, 2017 18:13
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I will post things all us left people can agree on in hopes of deescalation. More needs to be done to help homeless people. Washington's minimum wage laws are good(or at least better than nothing) Nazis are bad. Trump is bad.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:20
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Bigots are bad
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Jun 1, 2017 18:27
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Capitalism is bad.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:29
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Hunting for sport is bad.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:30
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Unions are awesome Feminism is awesome
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Jun 1, 2017 18:32
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Taxing the rich is good.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:39
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Public transit should be better funded.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:40
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Solkanar512 posted:It's pretty loving clear that DevNull is conflating my call for people in this thread to take a moment and listen to each other with a more general "hearing both sides" that somehow includes neo-nazi murderers. What part isn't clear to you? Why do so many presume the worst in others rather than just asking for clarification? I never even mentioned you, stop thinking I give a gently caress about you. I was referring to assholes like the ACLU being quick to jump to the defense of nazis, but are silent when Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor has to cancel talks due to said nazis making death threats.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:41
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DevNull posted:It is hostility toward the jackasses that act like they are the only people being reasonable. yeah its weird how the concern trolling that happens online doesn't materialize in public I wonder where those guys are??? Last night I listened to some dude talk about POC arming themselves in the dark heart of liberal seattle and I didn't hear one yes but in the entire crowd! Also I've come to agree with him and now I'm thinking about buying a gun again. But seriously you guys can you BELIEVE what Sawant said about Boeing 3 and a half years ago?????
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Jun 1, 2017 18:42
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:yeah its weird how the concern trolling that happens online doesn't materialize in public I wonder where those guys are??? I'm not a giant fan of guns, but if anyone needs them for protection it is POC. Though I don't see what this has to do with your other topic. On continuing good things chat: Minorities need to be served by the police, not be made afraid by racist police behavior.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:46
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Peachfart posted:On continuing good things chat: Minorities need to be served by the police, not be made afraid by racist police behavior. This will never happen. It is the very opposite of what police exist for. They are a tool of oppression. People can ensure the safety of their own community without the police.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:49
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Eggnogium posted:Public transit should be better funded. That's where you're wrong, buddy. LTD In Eugene is overly funded and incredibly inefficient. I'm not against funding, but you sure as poo poo better use those funds properly.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:50
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DevNull posted:I never even mentioned you, stop thinking I give a gently caress about you. I was referring to assholes like the ACLU being quick to jump to the defense of nazis, but are silent when Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor has to cancel talks due to said nazis making death threats. That's not really the ACLU's mission but okay.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:52
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DevNull posted:This will never happen. It is the very opposite of what police exist for. They are a tool of oppression. People can ensure the safety of their own community without the police. Many countries manage to have police departments that don't carry weapons and terrorize minority populations. And I don't think 'remove all police departments' will get much traction outside of the radical left or libertarians.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:52
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Peachfart posted:Many countries manage to have police departments that don't carry weapons and terrorize minority populations. And I don't think 'remove all police departments' will get much traction outside of the radical left or libertarians.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:56
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anthonypants posted:Are you suggesting that disarming the police would be a viable alternative in this country? More viable then trying to get rid of them. .01 is larger than 0.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:59
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anthonypants posted:Are you suggesting that disarming the police would be a viable alternative in this country? Liberals look at me wide eyed any time I make that kind of suggestion in person, they say things like "oh, you're SUPER liberal" like it's an insane thing to not be ok with hundreds of people being killed by police every year.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:00
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Eggnogium posted:That's not really the ACLU's mission but okay. Those two events are linked. The actions of the ACLU have consequences. There are all sorts of civil liberties/free speech issues that they don't take up. They don't have to protect hate speech, but they choose to on a regular basis. Their actions are not as neutral as they claim, and the myth that they are apolitical is a way to narrow the conversation to set of arguments that liberalism defines as acceptable.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:02
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Seattle and Portland police are... not good.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:07
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DevNull posted:Those two events are linked. The actions of the ACLU have consequences. There are all sorts of civil liberties/free speech issues that they don't take up. They don't have to protect hate speech, but they choose to on a regular basis. Their actions are not as neutral as they claim, and the myth that they are apolitical is a way to narrow the conversation to set of arguments that liberalism defines as acceptable.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:10
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Portland has a deep-rooted racism and white supremacy problem that every white person living here has complicity in but which typical Portland leftists find deeply uncomfortable to acknowledge.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:13
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twodot posted:No, the ACLU aren't local prosecutors, so it makes sense that they don't prosecute death threats. This doesn't have anything to do with politics, and just what is physically possible for a bunch of defense lawyers volunteering their time. I'm also not sure why you think they are claiming their actions are neutral, if you go to their site, they have a big list of issues, prosecuting death threats isn't on there. I don't expect them to. I would just like them to not bend over backwards to protect the fuckers making the death threats.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:13
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ElCondemn posted:Liberals look at me wide eyed any time I make that kind of suggestion in person, they say things like "oh, you're SUPER liberal" like it's an insane thing to not be ok with hundreds of people being killed by police every year. Like, sure, have them in your car if you are approaching a situation where it might be needed but don't just default to guns out on every stop.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:17
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The city granting permits for an assembly or not is an ACLU thing. Private citizens affiliated with a group harassing another group is not an ACLU thing. They've represented NAMBLA, it's not like them defending a group's speech rights is an endorsement.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:18
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Javid posted:The city granting permits for an assembly or not is an ACLU thing. This argument only works if you think there is no connection between these neo-nazi rallies and a neo-nazi murdering 2 people.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:21
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DevNull posted:This argument only works if you think there is no connection between these neo-nazi rallies and a neo-nazi murdering 2 people.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:23
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DevNull posted:This argument only works if you think there is no connection between these neo-nazi rallies and a neo-nazi murdering 2 people. No it doesn't. The ACLU doesn't believe that speech can't influence or cause violent criminal acts that they would condemn and consider illegal. But they do believe that our understanding of that influence is necessarily subjective and tenuous and something that bad government actors could exploit if given precedent.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:26
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The ACLU supported Citizens United. They are not beyond criticism.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:31
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anthonypants posted:Maybe they're a nihilist. At which point dialogue is impossible, and then you just point and laugh. A succinct summary of the last few pages.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:41
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Meanwhile here's what's happening at the Evergreen State College today:The Olympian posted:“In response to a direct threat to campus safety, the college is closing immediately for the day,” college officials posted on Evergreen’s website. “All are asked to leave campus or return to residence halls for instructions.”
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Jun 1, 2017 20:05
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Mr. Lobe posted:The ACLU supported Citizens United. They are not beyond criticism. The ACLU believes in total freedom of speech, including money in politics. I disagree, but it is consistent with their beliefs.
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Jun 1, 2017 21:01
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Peachfart posted:The ACLU believes in total freedom of speech, including money in politics. I disagree, but it is consistent with their beliefs.
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Jun 1, 2017 21:20
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Peachfart posted:The ACLU believes in total freedom of speech, including money in politics. I disagree, but it is consistent with their beliefs. If they were internally consistent in their beliefs, in acknowledging that money is speech, they should be fighting for massive redistribution of wealth and against capitalism in general. Capitalism consolidates wealth (i.e. "speech", if we are accepting their premise) in the hands of an increasingly smaller number of hands by extracting it from the masses. They don't of course, but even beyond this, this premise literally makes speech into a zero-sum quantity--worse, a zero-sum game in which disenfranchisement is accelerated by allowing allowing vested interests to be better represented within politics, and thus further plunder and hoard "speech" through legislative means.
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Jun 1, 2017 21:20
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anthonypants posted:Antonin Scalia was pretty consistent in his beliefs, too. It's almost as if a blind adherence to a single, extremely limited doctrine is a major moral failing, and not something to be respected or admired. Anyone who comes out of Philosophy of Law without coming to this conclusion is, hyperbolically speaking, a sociopath. Even my religious, math-loving rear end had to abandon this garbage once I actually studied it. gently caress Kant.
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Jun 1, 2017 21:22
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HEY NONG MAN posted:Like, sure, have them in your car if you are approaching a situation where it might be needed but don't just default to guns out on every stop. I would prefer if normal cops just didn't have them at all and would be prosecuted if they were caught using a gun in any official capacity. In the vast majority of active shooter situations police are calling for backup anyway, why not train a small percentage of the police force in firearms and de-escalation for those situations? We already have SWAT teams, why not just create some standards and use them only when necessary? DevNull posted:This argument only works if you think there is no connection between these neo-nazi rallies and a neo-nazi murdering 2 people. The ACLU is not a liberal organization nor a watchtower for injustice, they are literally only there to provide legal services in civil liberty cases. All of this is on their website and they are clear what their goals are.
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Jun 1, 2017 21:23
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