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40k For Adults on FB is literally tearing itself apart over the most inane poo poo. It's as if people don't realise that there is more than one game to play, and HOLY poo poo THEY CAN JUST KEEP PLAYING 7TH!?! Looking at the/this/any game through the lense of historicals where basically you can go from playing with chits representing legions to 54mm skirmish with dozens of rulesets/etc. it makes the blind adherence to what a given manufacturer thinks is official (in terms of models, rules or whatever) so stupid. For example, I played a demo game of a patrol gone awry, I couldn't find any rules for bringing on reinforcements so I just winged how much, which table edge, etc. - and it was fine. Like, I was expecting there to be this massive upset victory and gnashing of teeth but whatever, the game played out and was fun and so on. I didn't NEED to get the official ruling, I didn't NEED to know if it was 100% tournament-ready balanced. I would imagine that 99% of the people in this thread don't play "competitively"-seriously and as such most of the "official" stuff is just a framework to build from. Have a smaller board? Use CM instead of Inches. Have Empire Handgunners? Use them as Basiliean archers. Want to model your gretchin with autoguns instead of pistols? Just ensure your opponent knows ahead of time. Who really honestly gives a poo poo? Soulfucker posted:Look man I have the rulebook already I'll check it out further when they relase the not!Tyranids army okay? Do you mean Plague by this? TBH the models are a complete poo poo-show IMO so I would probably use Veer-Myn as any non-horde army - small-ish unit sizes, most of which can have short range/close-combat weapons to represent biomorphs. I wasn't sold at all on firefight until I actually tried playing it and holy poo poo it's amazing. Exactly how you wanted 40k to be if you enjoyed the game before you got superheavies, gargants and armoured marine-baby walkers. With FF in mind, Renegade guard/Beastmen/Abhumans - GCPS with Ogryn and Minotaurs represented by Striders. Genestealer Cultists - Plague if you have lots, Veer-myn if you have some or GCPS with Marauder allies for a more elite force. Space Marines - Enforcers Tau/Necrons - Asterians
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Jun 1, 2017 15:04
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Ashcans posted:Yea, I think its weird to charge people for interim rules and then again for the real ones - either have the real ones available to buy immediately/soon, or let the interim ones be free until that happens. I mean, that's even what they have done in the past so its not even asking them to make some leap or change direction, whenever they changed the basic mechanics they usually provided at least some sort of minimal ruleset for people to use. I suspect that many armies will be relying on these rules for a long time
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Jun 1, 2017 15:04
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TheChirurgeon posted:I suspect that many armies will be relying on these rules for a long time Weren't the Chaos Dwarf rules from Ravening Hordes at the release of 6e technically tournament legal through at least 7th edition and maybe even into 8th? Southern Heel posted:Do you mean Plague by this? TBH the models are a complete poo poo-show IMO Plague are more like Genestealer cult than traditional Tyranids. There's another army being worked on that will be released later this year that is like space C'thulu that will be more like monster horde Tyranids. As to your other points, how do you know you're having fun if you're not having official fun?
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Jun 1, 2017 15:14
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Wait, what? You actually have to buy the indices to get the basic rules? I thought it was all free online?  Southern Heel posted:40k For Adults on FB is literally tearing itself apart over the most inane poo poo. It's as if people don't realise that there is more than one game to play, and HOLY poo poo THEY CAN JUST KEEP PLAYING 7TH!?! Diegetic thinking is the worst. This is also how you get RPG "rules as physics" and dumb star wars EU (fan)fiction. I play x-wing for my tournament need, but that game actually has tournaments in mind. The fact that 40k nowadays requires you to have a dolly to move your minis from place to place makes me wonder how people even have tournaments with that game.
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Jun 1, 2017 15:27
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Chill la Chill posted:Wait, what? You actually have to buy the indices to get the basic rules? I thought it was all free online? Yes, apparently. Most people thought they were going to be free online like AoS and that the books were just a convenience for people who wanted the rules in print, but no, it turns out the only way to get the placeholder lists is to purchase them. The lists in the 3e book weren't great, but at least at any point during that edition you could buy that book and have an army list for every main faction that you could use immediately. They weren't tournament legal after their respective codexes came out, but that hardly mattered if you were just playing at home.
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Jun 1, 2017 15:33
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Southern Heel posted:Do you mean Plague by this? I believe he means the Z'zor; insect people who are a little bit Klendathu bugs, tyranids, and Mass Effect Rachni, and currently only have a Dreadball team, but are somewhere on the list of expansion armies and have been forecast in the fluff, though they have fallen down the order a bit with Nameless coming first.
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Jun 1, 2017 15:50
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Atlas Hugged posted:Yes, apparently. Most people thought they were going to be free online like AoS and that the books were just a convenience for people who wanted the rules in print, but no, it turns out the only way to get the placeholder lists is to purchase them. This is what my friend and I thought and we assumed this was a reasonable place to try and play some 40k. Was going to split the starter and use them for skirmish games and maybe a 40k game once in a blue moon. Guess not. We both wanted the plague guys too so we're probably better off this way. I imagine that half will sell for a lot cheaper on ebay. That drone is gorgeous.
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Jun 1, 2017 15:55
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NTRabbit posted:I believe he means the Z'zor; insect people who are a little bit Klendathu bugs, tyranids, and Mass Effect Rachni, and currently only have a Dreadball team, but are somewhere on the list of expansion armies and have been forecast in the fluff, though they have fallen down the order a bit with Nameless coming first. Oh right these guys, I forget they exist even though I have a Dreadball team for them. Heh. Anyway, yeah they'll probably be more like 'Nids than Nameless.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:10
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I could be wrong but most game companies give free base rules to incentivise people getting into it yes?
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Jun 1, 2017 16:50
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For_Great_Justice posted:I could be wrong but most game companies give free base rules to incentivise people getting into it yes? I think, though I could be wrong, that the core rules themselves will be free.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:56
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It's very common, yes. Off the top of my head, you can get free rules (at least some sort of quickstart version to try the game) for Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Malifaux, Kings of War/Deadzone/Fire Fight, Firestorm Armada. Having said that, its not universal, and many companies still charge for rules - I know Dropfleet does, for example, and its also common for systems that aren't supporting their own miniature like, like Frostgrave. When games primarily dealt with printed products free rules were pretty rare - games like Warmachine would still give you the unit rules with the units, but you had to buy a book at some point. The only game I know that gave away free rules was Rackham's Confrontation, which included a tiny book of the entire rules with every single blister or box. But as most companies have moved into electronic publishing, they've also issued some sort of stripped down free rules with the option to buy a full book if you want that may have additional content. GW has never really jumped on this bandwagon. They have actually reversed course in some ways, because they used to provide basic unit profiles on their website so you could get an idea of what you would be buying and they seem to have eliminated even that.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:01
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Y'all say this as if the indexes aren't already online before preorder starts, much less release. The vast majority of grogs ain't gonna pay poo poo for em.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:13
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Atlas Hugged posted:I think, though I could be wrong, that the core rules themselves will be free. The core rules are free, but they quite literally boil down to "how to play." It's a bit disingenuous after hyping up free rules, imo, and I say this as a guy who was looking forward to the new edition.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:20
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The Bee posted:The core rules are free, but they quite literally boil down to "how to play." It's a bit disingenuous after hyping up free rules, imo, and I say this as a guy who was looking forward to the new edition. having seen the "extra rules" that come in the basic rulebook, most of it's optional, e.g. cityfight rules. The only thing you're missing that you "technically need" are the missions, and even then you'd be fine as a new player not having those for your first few games. The disappointing bit is that datasheets aren't available for free online, particularly if they plan to bundle them with models in the future.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:26
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TheChirurgeon posted:having seen the "extra rules" that come in the basic rulebook, most of it's optional, e.g. cityfight rules. The only thing you're missing that you "technically need" are the missions, and even then you'd be fine as a new player not having those for your first few games. That's true. I think the main thing I'm finding egregious about the core rules is the complete lack of command point rules, which seem like an important balancing aspect and means of spicing up gameplay. Even if they don't want to include army comp rules in the core, they could at least give the 3 base stratagems and 3 command points each army gets for free. Some other missions besides Only War would've been nice too, if only to add some variety, and they could have always included the three free play ones even if they wanted to be stingy about anything with actual structure like narrative or matched play missions. That said, yeah, beyond battle-forging and command points basically everything you could expect out of a core game can be pulled together with free rules and an index.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:30
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I'm not sold on this edition. I'm going full grog I'll admit it, its not what I enjoy and it is not what I want and it'll go right back to rule bloat and codex creep eventually while they push buying new stuff. Plague marines have more access to psychic power off the bat because new. And scaled up figs. I don't really care to wait to when they get around to doing some sort of update for night lords or emp children. I just don't find new GW to be any different from old GW.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:34
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Honestly my problem with GWs rulebooks and codices isn't that I have to pay for them, it's that they're priced so absurdly. In most cases you could literally slice the prices in half and you'd pretty neatly land in line with what other manufacturers ask for equivalent products.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:36
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In the interest of healthy enquiry I decided to see about doing some Dark Elves for AoS JUST TO SEE and it's a loving shitshow. Google "Age of Sigmar Rules" and find nothing on army composition, just 'now you're ready to start. Find only linked document 'Dark Elf Warscroll'. It contains a bunch of units just listed out one by one with their stats. Find a PDF of the Generals Handbook. The Generals Handbook 'Pitched Battle Profiles' shows some faction lists which have various units in, but not all. Some factions (Man Eaters) only have a single unit listed. The Generals Handbook 'compendium' shows yet more values, but only for characters and bolt throwers. It turns out that the Warscrolls are just free/legacy lists from when AoS was released which cover all models in the relevant WHFB army. (Of course, the unit names have all changed apparently so there might not be any equivalent?) So I've got Book A for stats (which are legacy now apparently) Book B for points values for the race, broken up into factions that aren't mentioned in book A. It also has a bunch of units under 'Compendium' from Book A. At no point is 'this is legacy' mentioned anywhere. Book C (Order Grand Alliance)which I guess has stats which are also broken up into factions as per book B. Book D+ as 'battle tome' which I guess has more focus on given races in the Grand Alliance somehow? I've tried using Scrollbuilder to help out, but I'm just flummoxed. If I pick a faction, say 'Darkling Coven' then I can pick a bunch of units, but the special allegience from the Warscroll 'Exiled Warhost' isn't available. If I pick the 'Exiled' faction, then I can't add any of the units that the 'Exiled Warhost' allegience needs (which is now available). Then I read that there are unit keywords I can pick from - so infact the list in Book A is everything for my race (despite being legacy), it was just chopped up for no reason in Book B and C? What rubbish. I'm not a super-grog but I've been playing wargames on and off since I was a kid (now pushing north of 30) and if I can't figure this out EASILY, then what kind of barrier for entry is there to anyone who is considering it? NTRabbit posted:I believe he means the Z'zor; insect people who are a little bit Klendathu bugs, tyranids, and Mass Effect Rachni, and currently only have a Dreadball team, but are somewhere on the list of expansion armies and have been forecast in the fluff, though they have fallen down the order a bit with Nameless coming first. Wow - so I just checked out their models and they look bad. rear end. http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/dreadball/teams/product/kalimarin-ancients-nameless-team-14-figures.html Southern Heel fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 17:37
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Chill la Chill posted:This is what my friend and I thought and we assumed this was a reasonable place to try and play some 40k. Was going to split the starter and use them for skirmish games and maybe a 40k game once in a blue moon. Guess not. We both wanted the plague guys too so we're probably better off this way. I imagine that half will sell for a lot cheaper on ebay. That drone is gorgeous. The starter includes indexes for everything in the box.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:39
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The Bee posted:That's true. I think the main thing I'm finding egregious about the core rules is the complete lack of command point rules, which seem like an important balancing aspect and means of spicing up gameplay. Even if they don't want to include army comp rules in the core, they could at least give the 3 base stratagems and 3 command points each army gets for free. Some other missions besides Only War would've been nice too, if only to add some variety, and they could have always included the three free play ones even if they wanted to be stingy about anything with actual structure like narrative or matched play missions. There's a ton of command point stuff in the new rules tied to narrative play missions. It actually looks like a lot of fun to play. There aren't any army-specific strategems yet, as those are all planned for the codexes. That part's definitely disappointing, since it means strategems will be doled out unevenly as armies are updated. Hra Mormo posted:Honestly my problem with GWs rulebooks and codices isn't that I have to pay for them, it's that they're priced so absurdly. In most cases you could literally slice the prices in half and you'd pretty neatly land in line with what other manufacturers ask for equivalent products. Part of that is the insistence on printing bigass hardcover books. I'm hoping they go softcover with releases this edition for that exact reason.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:39
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TheChirurgeon posted:There's a ton of command point stuff in the new rules tied to narrative play missions. It actually looks like a lot of fun to play. There aren't any army-specific strategems yet, as those are all planned for the codexes. That part's definitely disappointing, since it means strategems will be doled out unevenly as armies are updated. I meant the free core rules, not the book core rules. The book core rule command point stuff looks awesome, and really helps make all of the developed missions feel more unique than "this time, the victory point is over here!" I agree with you on the stratagem point, though, as well as Justice's point on Legion-specific and other subfaction-based rules. These stopgaps are going to help compared to being stuck on a 6E codex, but once these stopgaps start shifting some factions are going to get very uneven. Honestly, if they offered a split rulebook option for, say, 20-25 dollars each, I get the feeling a lot of this would be easier to swallow. You could buy Lore, Core Rules, or Advanced Rules, or throw down for the hardcover all-encompassing release. As is, the jump from "free" to "sixty bucks and you use a third of it for actually playing the game" is a bit staggering.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:45
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TKIY posted:The starter includes indexes for everything in the box. Ok but I have this batch of tau minis IDK why I even care so much. It's GW being GW, and we'll keep playing scrappers and infinity.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:48
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Chill la Chill posted:This is what my friend and I thought and we assumed this was a reasonable place to try and play some 40k. Was going to split the starter and use them for skirmish games and maybe a 40k game once in a blue moon. Guess not. We both wanted the plague guys too so we're probably better off this way. I imagine that half will sell for a lot cheaper on ebay. That drone is gorgeous. I believe they've said the data slates in the indexes will be on the website just not the granular points values. It's just that going forward any new releases will be inside the box or codex only.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:52
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I believe they've said the data slates in the indexes will be on the website just not the granular points values. It's just that going forward any new releases will be inside the box or codex only. I thought I heard that too, but didn't want to assume without seeing anything first.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:53
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Chill la Chill posted:Ok but I have this batch of tau minis So just download the rules that were already put online in a pdf, if that's the only thing keeping you from playing
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Jun 1, 2017 18:33
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TheChirurgeon posted:Part of that is the insistence on printing bigass hardcover books. I'm hoping they go softcover with releases this edition for that exact reason. Are the codex and rule books also printed in the U.K. like the Black Library stuff? I always assumed that accounted for at least a small part of the GW tax since they're not reaping the sweet send-all-this-poo poo-to-China savings.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:37
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Shadin posted:Are the codex and rule books also printed in the U.K. like the Black Library stuff? I always assumed that accounted for at least a small part of the GW tax since they're not reaping the sweet send-all-this-poo poo-to-China savings. I have no idea. Though it's not as though $50-60 is well above market value for full-color hardcover nerdgame rulebooks with 100+ pages. I don't think GW is significantly overcharging for those comparatively, they should just do softcover because it's cheaper and easier to transport
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Jun 1, 2017 18:40
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TheChirurgeon posted:I have no idea. Though it's not as though $50-60 is well above market value for full-color hardcover nerdgame rulebooks with 100+ pages. I don't think GW is significantly overcharging for those comparatively, they should just do softcover because it's cheaper and easier to transport No I agree, that's pretty par for course on price for their production quality. I wait for softcover in just about everything to save money and also because hardcovers are a pain in the rear end in every day use anyway.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:44
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Southern Heel posted:40k For Adults on FB is literally tearing itself apart over the most inane poo poo. It's as if people don't realise that there is more than one game to play, and HOLY poo poo THEY CAN JUST KEEP PLAYING 7TH!?! If a new edition is out it gets much harder to find pick-up games outside your core group of gaming buddies, assuming you have those in the first place. I expect a ruleset to be fully functional and reasonably balanced. I don't want to wing anything midgame and i don't want to have to tweak the rules myself either. In my local group we're mostly playing competitively and strictly by the up to date rules/errata, we're not stuck up about it or some waac caricatures it's just what we consider fun. And yes, we travel to tournaments as well if things line up. I don't begrudge you your way of having fun, so don't tell me my fun is wrong. It's been mentioned before, if rules are "tournament ready" that doesn't hinder casual or scenario play at all but if they are not it does hinder competitive play.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:04
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Bistromatic posted:If a new edition is out it gets much harder to find pick-up games outside your core group of gaming buddies, assuming you have those in the first place. I'd argue non tournament-ready rules hinder casual play, too. An experienced player fighting a broken army would realize there's a problem with the army. A casual player in the same circumstance might jump to thinking either they suck or the game sucks. It's part of why I have my reservations about Power, because despite being promoted as the easy option it seems way easier to game and min-max than actual points. A new player who doesn't immediately jump to replacing all their pistols with hand flamers is going to be in for quite a shock when fighting someone who goes whole hog on their wargear list.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:07
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Avenging Dentist posted:This is a good thing though. Well yeah, just not for GW's business.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:14
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The Bee posted:I'd argue non tournament-ready rules hinder casual play, too. Yeah, the idiots who defend some of the choices GW makes always tend to try to make it out that only over-competitive assholes want tight rules and balance. But the reality is if you're a casual player it's super important to your gaming experience to have sound rules. Who wants to spend a casual friday night arguing about rules or getting stomped by imbalanced poo poo where you lost during the list-building phase?
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Jun 1, 2017 19:27
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Bistromatic posted:If a new edition is out it gets much harder to find pick-up games outside your core group of gaming buddies, assuming you have those in the first place. I don't disagree on any of these points and frankly have no interest in 8e or AoS because of the complete ineptness of GW for more or less the same reason. This wasn't a dig at you per se, but rather at people who feel the need to toe the company line for some reason?
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Jun 1, 2017 19:51
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Southern Heel posted:I don't disagree on any of these points and frankly have no interest in 8e or AoS because of the complete ineptness of GW for more or less the same reason. This wasn't a dig at you per se, but rather at people who feel the need to toe the company line for some reason? Yeah. I have a friend who insisted AoS didn't squat anything and that you could totally still play games in the Old World. I don't think he got how a completely unsupported range with nobody around for pick up games anymore would differ from a proper new edition.
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Jun 1, 2017 20:03
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"Hurr durr your books don't burst into flames you can play the old editions just fine" is the worst fallacy in mainstream wargaming. Model support, communities and your pool of players dries up almost immediately.
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Jun 1, 2017 20:08
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TTerrible posted:"Hurr durr your books don't burst into flames you can play the old editions just fine" is the worst fallacy in mainstream wargaming. Model support, communities and your pool of players dries up almost immediately. Quoted for truth. Move forward or rot in your Grog Tomb.
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Jun 1, 2017 20:33
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Whoops looks like GW was bad all along!
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Jun 1, 2017 21:18
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Crackbone posted:Whoops looks like GW was bad all along! psych
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Jun 1, 2017 21:32
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Crackbone posted:Whoops looks like GW was bad all along! 
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Jun 1, 2017 21:36
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the free* rules being a technicality is hilarious also lmbo at "gw rule pricing is fine because you can just pirate em!" 
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