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For_Great_Justice posted:I'm not sold on this edition. I'm going full grog I'll admit it, its not what I enjoy and it is not what I want and it'll go right back to rule bloat and codex creep eventually while they push buying new stuff. Holy poo poo, the new army with new models they're using as a selling point has more rules available than the stopgaps printed for all the other armies with 'Codex Soon(TM)' plans. How can it be. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 23:02
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I'm laughing pretty hard at the idea that GW shouldn't bother releasing rules for free because piracy exists. Did I time travel to 2004?
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Jun 1, 2017 23:14
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The bait and switch with free rules is really funny because the exact same thing happened with Kings of War. Exactly.
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Jun 1, 2017 23:16
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It's not really a bait and switch cause we knew what we were getting.
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Jun 1, 2017 23:23
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TheChirurgeon posted:I have no idea. Though it's not as though $50-60 is well above market value for full-color hardcover nerdgame rulebooks with 100+ pages. I don't think GW is significantly overcharging for those comparatively, they should just do softcover because it's cheaper and easier to transport
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Jun 1, 2017 23:29
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MonsterEnvy posted:It's not really a bait and switch cause we knew what we were getting. I don't think that's true for most people.
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Jun 1, 2017 23:40
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muggins posted:I don't think that's true for most people. They said the core rules were 12 pages. It contains how to play, one mission and the core stategems. It's pretty much what was expected as this is what they said we were getting.
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Jun 1, 2017 23:46
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MonsterEnvy posted:They said the core rules were 12 pages. It contains how to play, one mission and the core stategems. It's pretty much what was expected as this is what they said we were getting. "core rules are free" Oh yeah but that doesn't really help anyone who wants to play the game the same way they have been for 20 years, so essentially not free anything
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Jun 1, 2017 23:52
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Terrible Opinions posted:Making their rule books full color hardbacks is a part of the problem with them. ...which is also the point I made Atlas Hugged posted:I'm laughing pretty hard at the idea that GW shouldn't bother releasing rules for free because piracy exists. Did I time travel to 2004? It's less that--they should definitely release the core rules and warscrolls online for free (I think it's OK to include optional rules for poo poo like cityfight and stronghold assault as paid supplements)--and more that if you are sitting around saying that the "only thing keeping you from getting into 40k is paying for rules" then yeah, just fuckin pirate them. They're already everywhere for free right now pre-release There's more than a few good reasons to not play 40k but "I don't want to pay for the rules" isn't really one of them muggins posted:"core rules are free" lol at the mythical gamer who has been playing 40k for 20 years but is now balking at spending money on rules
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Jun 1, 2017 23:56
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They said New Games Workshop© m8
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Jun 2, 2017 00:03
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TheChirurgeon posted:It's less that--they should definitely release the core rules and warscrolls online for free (I think it's OK to include optional rules for poo poo like cityfight and stronghold assault as paid supplements)--and more that if you are sitting around saying that the "only thing keeping you from getting into 40k is paying for rules" then yeah, just fuckin pirate them. They're already everywhere for free right now pre-release To be clear, I was more laughing at this: Liquid Communism posted:Y'all say this as if the indexes aren't already online before preorder starts, much less release. Than the idea that someone would think paying for something was a line too far. Just because something can be pirated doesn't justify GW charging people for something that should be free. It's not what's keeping me from trying new 40k, it's me pointing out GW still has a boneheaded approach to their product. But whatever I'm sure they'll make a million billion dollars so my complaints don't add up to much.
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Jun 2, 2017 01:21
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Atlas Hugged posted:To be clear, I was more laughing at this: More like Atlas GW Hate Hugged Box 
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Jun 2, 2017 01:25
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Terrible Opinions posted:Making their rule books full color hardbacks is a part of the problem with them. http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/books/product/armies-of-mantica-kings-of-war-collection.html
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Jun 2, 2017 01:35
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Imagine being a Whfb player, but you had to pay for the free Sigmar rules to find the how poo poo was. That's 8th edition 40k. Hope this helps.
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Jun 2, 2017 01:42
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Atlas Hugged posted:To be clear, I was more laughing at this: Fair enough. I agree that GW not including the mission rules in their free core rules is bad, though if they put the warscrolls online for free, that'll be the only thing missing. I don't mind paying for high quality printed materials but I generally agree that the rules should be available free online, or as part of a subscription package that includes poo poo like White Dwarf. I was mostly confused by posts like Chill la Chills' where he was willing to buy the starter box and start playing, but the $25 rulebook for Tau was a bridge too far
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Jun 2, 2017 01:43
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TheChirurgeon posted:Fair enough. I agree that GW not including the mission rules in their free core rules is bad, though if they put the warscrolls online for free, that'll be the only thing missing. I don't mind paying for high quality printed materials but I generally agree that the rules should be available free online, or as part of a subscription package that includes poo poo like White Dwarf. I'm fine with the core rules being free as they are. More is better, but I don't think they were being cagey or sneaky about what the free rules would consist of. What they're releasing is inline with their competitors. Charging people for placeholder lists is really the thing that gets under my skin and I can at least understand why Chill would draw the line there as a moral if not practical stance. If you're already buying the rules, you should get the placeholder lists and GW has done this in the past. If he's not going to get the lists with that initial purchase, then he's not going to buy the starter/rules. I don't see that as unreasonable. Just because you're willing to spend money doesn't mean you're willing to spend more money. It's a pot committed fallacy when he hasn't even made an initial purchase into the edition yet.
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Jun 2, 2017 01:54
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sure but then if you want to play but don't want to pay for the placeholder rules for an army you've already bought, then I don't see why just using the leaked rules is an issue
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Jun 2, 2017 02:00
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Probably a combination of not wanting to pirate something and thinking if this is how GW is going to treat customers there's no point in getting back into the hobby.
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Jun 2, 2017 02:09
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If they put the index data sheets on the webstore for free (which I think I heard they were doing?) then the index is just 25 dollars for the convenience. If they don't, then charging for the placeholders is pretty crap. Even then, I get the feeling point values aren't included, which is the real dealbreaker imo.
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Jun 2, 2017 02:17
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The Bee posted:If they put the index data sheets on the webstore for free (which I think I heard they were doing?) then the index is just 25 dollars for the convenience. If they don't, then charging for the placeholders is pretty crap. Even then, I get the feeling point values aren't included, which is the real dealbreaker imo. Point values will be in the indexes only as far as we're aware yeah, so that's the lynch pin to make them a must buy.
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Jun 2, 2017 02:35
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RagnarokAngel posted:Point values will be in the indexes only as far as we're aware yeah, so that's the lynch pin to make them a must buy. Matched Play points anyhow. The whole Narrative Power Points thing might be more popular than we think and they are on the datasheets.
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Jun 2, 2017 02:40
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Pretty sure the Index idea was tacked on when they saw how bad the reception for Sigmar was, when it launched without points. They'll probably do the profiles and points better going forward because it won't be a reflexive panic move; at least for the units and armies that they continue to support.
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Jun 2, 2017 02:46
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Atlas Hugged posted:Probably a combination of not wanting to pirate something and thinking if this is how GW is going to treat customers there's no point in getting back into the hobby. More or less this. I mean, I was wrong about a certain set of assumptions. My friend might still want to get the starter just for the minis and sell the rule book, but now neither of us really care about trying the game again.  E: ok yeah he said what a joke and ..... and implying we should split one of those cheap infinity army sets instead Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 03:53
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The indexs are at least pretty cheap (By the standards of Warhammer) and have decent rules.
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Jun 2, 2017 04:02
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40k is definitely a bigger game than it was when they jumped from 2e to 3e, so maybe that's their justification for not releasing for free what was in the past. Just to be clear, the Indexes have lists for the individual chapters and not just a generic marine list?
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Jun 2, 2017 04:09
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Atlas Hugged posted:40k is definitely a bigger game than it was when they jumped from 2e to 3e, so maybe that's their justification for not releasing for free what was in the past. Yes, but it's pretty clear from looking at everything that this is placeholder stuff. Granted, it's placeholder stuff that will take multiple years to replace for some of it, and it's possible that the datasheets will remain unchanged through codex releases, but there's enough missing stuff that it's clearly not meant to be the final rules for these factions. Also yeah, the game is much, much bigger in terms of factions and units than it was going from 2e to 3e. Too much baggage from being around 30 years and trying to keep everyone's models playable
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Jun 2, 2017 04:19
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Atlas Hugged posted:40k is definitely a bigger game than it was when they jumped from 2e to 3e, so maybe that's their justification for not releasing for free what was in the past. Yeah a decent number of chapters. Lots with some different units and restrictions. And slightly different options for regular Marines that are part of those chapters. TheChirurgeon posted:Yes, but it's pretty clear from looking at everything that this is placeholder stuff. It's mainly placeholder that we don't have the unique stratagems, Keyword benifits and some extra psychic powers for some groups. They are still solid and are probably the best a lot of the armies have been in years. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 04:20
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MonsterEnvy posted:Yeah a decent number of chapters. Lots with some different units and restrictions. And slightly different options for regular Marines that are part of those chapters. Yeah, I won't deny that. The game is much better and more streamlined than the garbage mess they just had in 7th edition. Plays faster too. Now whether it'll just bloat back up again, we'll have to see
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Jun 2, 2017 04:51
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Sir Teabag posted:Pretty sure the Index idea was tacked on when they saw how bad the reception for Sigmar was, when it launched without points. They'll probably do the profiles and points better going forward because it won't be a reflexive panic move; at least for the units and armies that they continue to support. If you look at the absolute loving mess trying to figure out the points of a single model in your army, you are absolutely right they are just working towards dumping them. They can't even include the default equipment in the models! A Haruspex has three weapons, all unique, with two of them costing 0 points and 1 of them costing 11 points on a 267 point monster. It is like a car company not wanting to sell motorcycles, so they keep the motorcycles locked in the basement.
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Jun 2, 2017 05:17
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when they said free rules, the implication was that everything you need to play would in freely accessible, bare bones pdfs on their website. what it seems to actually mean is there will be free reference sheet pdfs available, but get hosed if you want to get unit profiles so you can actually, yknow, play their loving game but hey its ok because some guys took cellphone pics of the rules and posted them to imgur!
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Jun 2, 2017 07:01
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MonsterEnvy posted:It's not really a bait and switch cause we knew what we were getting. ahahahahahhahahh MonsterEnvy loving please. FREE RULES! Oh no no you see some rules are free, we never said all the rules 
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Jun 2, 2017 07:08
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:when they said free rules, the implication was that everything you need to play would in freely accessible, bare bones pdfs on their website. Honestly, they're not the only ones with a weird definition of "free rules". I recall some kerfuffle when Mantic said the KoW rules are "free to try", which to them meant "we will give you just enough rules from the main book to play a game" even though the most-obvious interpretation is that they are free, period. At least KoW was designed under the expectation that people would use non-Mantic models, so I can understand why they might want to prioritize charging for the full rules. I feel kinda spoiled by Dark Age where the books are just for collectors and people who like fluff. (And I could exchange my 2013 main rulebook for the new 2017 one for free if I see them at a con, although I'll probably keep the old one.)
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Jun 2, 2017 07:14
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Avenging Dentist posted:Honestly, they're not the only ones with a weird definition of "free rules". I recall some kerfuffle when Mantic said the KoW rules are "free to try", which to them meant "we will give you just enough rules from the main book to play a game" even though the most-obvious interpretation is that they are free, period. At least KoW was designed under the expectation that people would use non-Mantic models, so I can understand why they might want to prioritize charging for the full rules. This doesn't work when other game companies give out free rules and its actually the entire core rule set.
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Jun 2, 2017 07:16
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kingcom posted:This doesn't work when other game companies give out free rules and its actually the entire core rule set. Yeah, I totally get that when a company says "free rules" you expect that all of the rules will be free, but GW isn't the only one who likes to be a little tricky with their phrasing when it comes to free content.
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Jun 2, 2017 07:22
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The Mantic free to try stuff isn't even that bad. You get most of the core rules and you get most of the units for every army in the main book . You can definitely play Kings of War with just that. They've been a lot more careful since then and have made sure to use terms like "getting started" for Deadzone and Warpath to avoid backlash. But again Mantic puts much less emphasis on buying their models and everything they sell is orders of magnitude cheaper than GW.
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Jun 2, 2017 07:50
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some games that have official free rules pdfs available online: all quiet on the martian front dust tactics guild ball infinity malifaux mercs rune wars relic knights sails of glory spartan games (halo, firestorm, dystopian) star trek attack wing star wars armada/xwing warmachine/hordes warzone resurrection wrath of kings if the rules dont include unit profiles, theyre usually found in cards that come when you buy the model. some companies give you access to said cards as pdfs for free to print out. all of these companies are mainly interested in you buying their models mantic provides a pretty good deal online for free, definitely enough to play, and even going whole hog will run you 60 bucks for all their printed rules and army lists. theres also the stripped down book for 20 bucks that gives you all the rules and 11 of the 20 lists gw wants 60 bucks for the actual rules, not the joke of a reference sheet they provide for free. then its another 25 bucks for one of five stopgap army books so you can actually play with your toys until they come round to bend you over again for the real book, which will probably be closer to 40 bucks. i thought gw claimed to be a model company that also wrote rules, which bears out when you compare the quality of their models (good to great) and the quality of their rules (mediocre to poo poo). if thats the case, their rules should be a loss leader, not another way to gouge their customers
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Jun 2, 2017 08:16
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Atlas Hugged posted:To be clear, I was more laughing at this: They don't have to justify anything. GW is a business for the purpose of making profit, and don't have to give away poo poo. Sure, it's not great customer service, and they might get even more players by making it free, but you and I both know the vast majority of their players aren't going to quit over $100 worth of rulebooks when they have four digits worth of plastic in boxes and want to play the new hotness. I don't even grump about it that much, because it looks like they actually tried to do some better game design this time, and I don't expect the writers and designers to work for free. It was a dick move to make a big deal about free rules and then have them just be the core rules and not the stuff to actually play the armies. I just don't think it'll put any significant number of their customers off. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 09:12
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Liquid Communism posted:They don't have to justify anything. GW is a business for the purpose of making profit, and don't have to give away poo poo. Sure, it's not great customer service, and they might get even more players by making it free, but you and I both know the vast majority of their players aren't going to quit over $100 worth of rulebooks when they have four digits worth of plastic in boxes and want to play the new hotness. Yeah and I've basically said as much. It's a dick move that doesn't win them any favors, but I doubt it will affect the bottom line.
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Jun 2, 2017 10:30
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GW is a business that wants to make money they don't have to give you scroungers anything for free if they don't want to Businesses are designed to make money and you should be happy to get ANYTHING for free
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Jun 2, 2017 11:47
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where do these conversions just keep coming from
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