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The big irony of Brexit is that the EU policies decried by brexiters were policies for which the UK had lobbied hard and long. So for this I see Brexit as a generous, selfless sacrifice from the Britons, who finally realized that their governments always suck and decided to save us from them. You know, like in those mountain climbing movies where someone cuts of their rope and plummets to their doom instead of dragging down the exhausted people that are barely hanging on to the cliff above them.
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Jun 1, 2017 11:13
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Deltasquid posted:The idea that the EU would somehow allow a deal of free movement for some EU members with the UK, and not with others, is completely insane. If that's what the British public or government wants, they can rest assured that it'll be torpedoed by - wait for it - Poland, Romania or Bulgaria. But similar deals used to be made. When Croatia entered the EU some countries (Netherlands comes to mind) had a grace period before they started giving Croatians all the EU citizens' rights.
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Jun 1, 2017 11:18
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Doctor Malaver posted:But similar deals used to be made. When Croatia entered the EU some countries (Netherlands comes to mind) had a grace period before they started giving Croatians all the EU citizens' rights. Grace periods yes, but those end pretty quickly and are rooted in making the transition into the "common economy" easier for both sides (or at least gives the richer states something to placate the fears of their voters over cheap labour flooding the market). The one for Bulgaria and Romania was 5 years, and ended 2012. Poland is now a EU member for 13 years. Those are the big three countries the UK as a problem with.
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Jun 1, 2017 11:44
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El Perkele posted:Was. Note the past tense.
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Jun 1, 2017 12:06
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jBrereton posted:Given that is not part of any party's manifesto, I don't think there will be any singling out of any existing member state's citizens when it comes to freedom of movement. Why do you think Britain is so strongly opposed to freedom of movement in the Brexit/post-Brexit negotiations? It has been one of the major, if not the major, points of contention so far. I'm sure everyone with half a brain cell has already learned how to use a dog whistle and would never call out specific groups by name.
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Jun 1, 2017 12:56
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Its pretty funny how ridiculously hung up on EU immigration the Tories/UKIP are given its almost entirely white, Christian/agnostic Eastern Europeans who are net tax contributors and socially assimilate rapidly. They're pretty much the ideal migrant group, in comparison to the troubles France Germany Sweden etc are facing.
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Jun 1, 2017 15:08
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Britain is absolutely fine with free movement of labour in general, they just want to exclude certain countries from it. Leave voters/UKIP racists (not 'Britain', please, there are quite a lot of us who are not that) don't want foreigners, period. They may be specifically het up about Polish plumbers and whatnot at the moment but they're not exactly raring to let French and German people in either.
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Jun 1, 2017 15:33
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Blut posted:Its pretty funny how ridiculously hung up on EU immigration the Tories/UKIP are given its almost entirely white, Christian/agnostic Eastern Europeans who are net tax contributors and socially assimilate rapidly. Politicians need a scapegoat for the fact that low qualified jobs pay less than they did decades ago, because of globalization and automation, which are elemental to today's standard of living. In southern Europe they blame the Euro/Germany, in the USA they blame Mexicans/China and in the UK it's the EU/Eastern Europe that gets blamed.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:24
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Why do you think Britain is so strongly opposed to freedom of movement in the Brexit/post-Brexit negotiations? It has been one of the major, if not the major, points of contention so far. Tories say they are opposed to freedom of movement because the party is run by nutters and Labour say that they're opposed to freedom of movement because their base is split on the issue and thus they have to thread the needle between both sides. That's also why Labour are talking a lot about prioritizing tariff-free trade with the EU post-brexit.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:13
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jBrereton posted:Given that is not part of any party's manifesto, I don't think there will be any singling out of any existing member state's citizens when it comes to freedom of movement. ... did you actually follow the Brexit debate back in spring 2016? Edit: Let me be clear: Phrases such as "take back control" and "eu immigration control" etc. while simultaneously newspapers and internet were talking about Bulgarians and Poles was super obvious. Not saying it out loud or not putting it in a party manifesto does not render the context of the discussion void. El Perkele fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 17:34
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Blut posted:Its pretty funny how ridiculously hung up on EU immigration the Tories/UKIP are given its almost entirely white, Christian/agnostic Eastern Europeans who are net tax contributors and socially assimilate rapidly. You are SO close all xenophobia is a scam, not just against white people 
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Jun 1, 2017 20:35
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El Perkele posted:... did you actually follow the Brexit debate back in spring 2016? He's an actual Briton who's involved with politics quite a bit, so I'd say yes. I mean yeah Britain definitely isn't happy about some countries, but Poland in particular actually doesn't score very low in favourability of immigrants globally speaking (Romania and Bulgaria do though). I can't find the survey now but it scored roughly around -4% favourable/unfavourable. Turkey was like -40 or something, Germany and France 20-35 and AUS/SA/Canada/US/NZ (and Japan I think too, weirdly enough) were in the forties and up. e: when I say favourability I mean it was a survey of UK citizens about which immigrants they like and dislike. it was called something like "Designing a new immigration system for Britain" and it was from sometime around 2014-15 or so Private Speech fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 21:56
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Private Speech posted:He's an actual Briton who's involved with politics quite a bit, so I'd say yes. All right, thank you. El Perkele fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 22:34
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:You are SO close Some immigrants are of more benefit to the host country than other immigrants. Its not xenophobic to look at the empirical economic figures and note this.
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Jun 1, 2017 23:05
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Blut posted:Some immigrants are of more benefit to the host country than other immigrants. Its not xenophobic to look at the empirical economic figures and note this. Making it the centre of your political program however, is.
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Jun 1, 2017 23:11
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Why do you think Britain is so strongly opposed to freedom of movement in the Brexit/post-Brexit negotiations? It has been one of the major, if not the major, points of contention so far. The current government's disastrous brexit minister (who I think was always meant to lose his job) couldn't say, when pressed literally yesterday, what the specific outcomes were wrt skilled vs. unskilled migration into the country after brexit outside of some "we'll bring it down to the tens of thousands but that will take time and effort" verbiage (aka they know in advance that it won't happen and probably don't want it to, just like when Theresa May was home sec and promised the same and never did it). I honestly don't know how much of a stumbling block freedom of movement is going to be. If it works out to be something pretty close to regulations the EU already put in place over a decade ago about asking people to find work within 3 months and the whole irish border thing gets worked out (I predict enhanced border checks in Northern Irish ports and airports but the maintenance of CTA), I think both sides will leave somewhat unhappy but not unhappy to the point a deal can't happen. I could be wrong, though. I think passporting of financial sector services is going to be the real stumbling block, since Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt are going to fight to the death over it unless something is worked out quickly, as well as the divorce bill which is being done in a very Trumpy "it just got 10 feet higher" way at the moment. Nigel Farage complaining incoherently about Romanians blocking the M6 or whatever was classic catherine-wheeling directionless racism which is only shared some people here and I would say given the French voting 30% in favour of a woman whose entire policy was "gently caress off we're full, make France great again" this is not a uniquely British phenomenon. jBrereton fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 23:46
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lollontee posted:Making it the centre of your political program however, is. No party in the UK has done this, though. The Tories/UKIP have focused on "all immigrants = bad" which is rather ridiculous, instead of the more reasonable (and factual) "some immigrants good, some immigrants bad".
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Jun 1, 2017 23:47
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quote:The Latest: France says no trace of Russian hacking Macron lmao "Really, anyone could have hacked us. Some script kid on 4chan could have done it. Some guy with a gameboy plugged the wrong way into a wall socket. Hell maybe it was carrier pidgeons with a grudge, I don't know. My laptop is literally an exhibition of every type of computer virus known to man, and some that we're still discovering."
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Jun 1, 2017 23:48
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It's more like a cop telling you anyone could have stolen your car since you left the key in and the door unlocked in a busy street while you went shopping.
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Jun 2, 2017 00:51
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jBrereton posted:I honestly don't know how much of a stumbling block freedom of movement is going to be. If it works out to be something pretty close to regulations the EU already put in place over a decade ago about asking people to find work within 3 months and the whole irish border thing gets worked out (I predict enhanced border checks in Northern Irish ports and airports but the maintenance of CETA), I think both sides will leave somewhat unhappy but not unhappy to the point a deal can't happen. I could be wrong, though. Depending on how the freedom of movement is described, it can be anything from ~easy (maintaining the current state of things) to absolute nonstarter (preferential access to single market without free movement of people) and anything inbetween. Remains to be seen! El Perkele fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 07:53
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Given the context i think he meant the CTA - Common Travel Area.
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Jun 2, 2017 07:57
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Pissflaps posted:Given the context i think he meant the CTA - Common Travel Area. Thank you.
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Jun 2, 2017 07:58
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I did mean that, sorry, I did the post pretty late in the day.
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Jun 2, 2017 09:05
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jBrereton posted:I did mean that, sorry, I did the post pretty late in the day. No problem, it made me actually read about CTA and EU statements regarding it!
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Jun 2, 2017 09:16
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Blut posted:No party in the UK has done this, though. The Tories/UKIP have focused on "all immigrants = bad" which is rather ridiculous, instead of the more reasonable (and factual) "some immigrants good, some immigrants bad". That is indeed what I was talking about. You can read those immigration statistics and deduce that refugees from war-torn countries like Syria indeed have a higher chance to commit violent crime than polish potato washers (and a hearty congratulations for noticing such a fact), but it's the conclusions you draw from that fact that matter. So what are your conclusions then?
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Jun 2, 2017 09:45
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jBrereton posted:I think passporting of financial sector services is going to be the real stumbling block, since Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt are going to fight to the death over it unless something is worked out quickly God I loving hope so. If Amsterdam gets the financial sector the city is done for
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Jun 2, 2017 10:14
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lollontee posted:That is indeed what I was talking about. You can read those immigration statistics and deduce that refugees from war-torn countries like Syria indeed have a higher chance to commit violent crime than polish potato washers (and a hearty congratulations for noticing such a fact), but it's the conclusions you draw from that fact that matter. The conclusions depend entirely on whether your goal is to keep Syrian refugees fleeing barrel bombs and gas safe until Syria gets fixed (probs like a decade or two at least) or to make your own country greater by brain-draining (or generally well-adjusted citizen-draining) other countries.
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Jun 2, 2017 10:35
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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The Puppet Master posted:God I loving hope so. If Amsterdam gets the financial sector the city is done for Destroy it before it has a chance to infest any other cities.
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Jun 2, 2017 10:40
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His Divine Shadow posted:Destroy it before it has a chance to infest any other cities. And people say we don't need nuclear weapons 
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Jun 2, 2017 10:41
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lollontee posted:That is indeed what I was talking about. You can read those immigration statistics and deduce that refugees from war-torn countries like Syria indeed have a higher chance to commit violent crime than polish potato washers (and a hearty congratulations for noticing such a fact), but it's the conclusions you draw from that fact that matter. It's really two different types of hate: Polish potato washers: They're taking our jerbs! And they're bringing their weird language and culture! Refugees from war-torn countries: They're bringing their weirder language and culture! And they're not doing any jerbs!
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Jun 2, 2017 11:00
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lollontee posted:That is indeed what I was talking about. You can read those immigration statistics and deduce that refugees from war-torn countries like Syria indeed have a higher chance to commit violent crime than polish potato washers (and a hearty congratulations for noticing such a fact), but it's the conclusions you draw from that fact that matter. quick drive-by comment: IRC Syrians, Afghans and Iraqis are below average Germans in the crime statistics.
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Jun 2, 2017 11:31
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blowfish posted:And people say we don't need nuclear weapons You can destroy the financial sector via liberal application of economic regulations and mass production of guillotines.
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Jun 2, 2017 11:41
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lollontee posted:That is indeed what I was talking about. You can read those immigration statistics and deduce that refugees from war-torn countries like Syria indeed have a higher chance to commit violent crime than polish potato washers (and a hearty congratulations for noticing such a fact), but it's the conclusions you draw from that fact that matter. My conclusions are that some immigrants groups have been shown to be a net positive economic contributor to their host countries, while others have shown to be the opposite. And it makes no sense to treat them equally when discussing immigration policy given that. As I stated in my original post.
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Jun 2, 2017 12:09
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Blut posted:My conclusions are that some immigrants groups have been shown to be a net positive economic contributor to their host countries, while others have shown to be the opposite. And it makes no sense to treat them equally when discussing immigration policy given that. As I stated in my original post. european immigration policy is that nobody gets in, unless they have STEM degrees and a job lined up or through marriage. it doesn't give a poo poo about nationality
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Jun 2, 2017 12:11
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:european immigration policy is that nobody gets in, unless they have STEM degrees and a job lined up or through marriage. it doesn't give a poo poo about nationality Where was nationality ever mentioned? You realize the discussion is on the Tory policies relating to EU migrants to the UK... right? Or are you not only too busy to use punctuation, but also to read actual posts before replying to them?
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Jun 2, 2017 12:46
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The Puppet Master posted:God I loving hope so. If Amsterdam gets the financial sector the city is done for Don't worry, Amsterdam is pretty much out of the running because of our laws restricting bonuses.
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Jun 2, 2017 13:13
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Orange Devil posted:Don't worry, Amsterdam is pretty much out of the running because of our laws restricting bonuses.
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Jun 2, 2017 13:52
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Blut posted:My conclusions are that some immigrants groups have been shown to be a net positive economic contributor to their host countries, while others have shown to be the opposite. And it makes no sense to treat them equally when discussing immigration policy given that. As I stated in my original post. EU citizens have the immediate right to reside, work and study in any EU country. They're hardly just regular "immigrants" and have massive advantages over actual immigrants much less refugees (who again, are not regular immigrants either) kind of the whole point of EU. It makes no sense not to take any of that into account.
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Jun 2, 2017 14:04
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His Divine Shadow posted:mass production of guillotines. That's gonna create jobs!
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Jun 2, 2017 15:06
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Cat Mattress posted:That's gonna create jobs! I could've sworn it was either here or in the pictures thread that someone posted a diagram for a 10-person guillotine. Industrialization will never stop eliminating jobs, kitty friend 
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Jun 2, 2017 15:17
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