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SleepCousinDeath posted:If saving the world makes you a sociopath, sure. *moves out of the way of a truck instead of stopping it* Guy A. Person posted:So Judakel are you planning to see the movie? Yeah, it sounds like it will be better than the other two.
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Jun 1, 2017 01:58
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Judakel posted:Because that writer's point is that wonder woman is different because she isn't human. Follow the thread. No, that isn't the writer's point. The writer's point is using the concept of the DC Trinity to show that Wonder Woman having a different tone/point of view than either MoS or BvS is neither a flaw nor a reactionary sea change in the DCCU. Wonder Woman being different because she has a non-human point of view is simply part of the construction of that point. Other than using the comic terminology of the Trinity, that is all quite clearly and directly laid out. You don't have to agree with the author that Snyder Superman and Batman aren't wrong to accept the fairly innocuous point that a movie where Zack Snyder has writing and producing credits isn't a refutation of Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder also has a cameo role in the movie that really shows Zack Snyder what for.
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Jun 1, 2017 02:30
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Judakel posted:*moves out of the way of a truck instead of stopping it* You linked a screen cap from the animated series as some sort of proof as to what superman is supposed to be like or w/e so how do you say poo poo like this and reconcile with him doing this poo poo all the time in the cartoon and sometimes worse??? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LpwA-OTaY24 Right in the beginning of that clip he just folds these dudes guns onto their hands and watches them writhe in pain like jesus christ superman what's your problem? Let's not forget the fan favorite darkseid episode where superman is just casually knocking him through buildings. That's okay but the fight scene in MoS isn't because...? Ghosthotel fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 03:35
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Ghosthotel posted:Let's not forget the fan favorite darkseid episode where superman is just casually knocking him through buildings. That's okay but the fight scene in MoS isn't because...? Years of reading the same comic series has conditioned people to expect all of the violence and action but with zero long term consequences.
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Jun 1, 2017 03:47
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this is the first paragraph of IMDB's top review for Wonder Woman. quote:I had the honor of watching WW during a screening and was completely blown away! This isn't just the best DCEU movie ever made, this is one of the best movie ever made. Everything in this film is excellent, not one piece of annoyance.
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Jun 1, 2017 04:31
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Kind of wish that if they weren't willing to engage with the hopelessness/brutality of the setting that they had just gone in the complete opposite direction and had giant death wheels rolling through No Man's Land like on those covers someone posted a few pages back. If Ares can get people to make super soldier serums and magic mustard gas then we should've gotten death wheels imo.
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Jun 1, 2017 05:04
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Gyges posted:No, that isn't the writer's point. The writer's point is using the concept of the DC Trinity to show that Wonder Woman having a different tone/point of view than either MoS or BvS is neither a flaw nor a reactionary sea change in the DCCU. Wonder Woman being different because she has a non-human point of view is simply part of the construction of that point. That was the writer's point. Ghosthotel posted:You linked a screen cap from the animated series as some sort of proof as to what superman is supposed to be like or w/e so how do you say poo poo like this and reconcile with him doing this poo poo all the time in the cartoon and sometimes worse??? That is very true. Even animated Superman has some really dumb moments. The point of the screencap was to simply show this was an ongoing feature of Superman's character even as late as the 90s. The animated series did plenty of things that they just thought looked cool without thinking about the moral repercussions. All this while painting Superman as a pretty great guy, too. Judakel fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 06:05
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Ghosthotel posted:Kind of wish that if they weren't willing to engage with the hopelessness/brutality of the setting that they had just gone in the complete opposite direction and had giant death wheels rolling through No Man's Land like on those covers someone posted a few pages back. If Ares can get people to make super soldier serums and magic mustard gas then we should've gotten death wheels imo. This is what burns me out the most. If you're going to have a universe with all powerful superheroes, then gently caress it, let them gently caress up history in their own insane superhuman ways. Instead, we're shown that actually the horrors of man that are mustard gas and the brutality of trench warfare were all actually a trick of the ancient Greek God of War. Also I'm still mad we never got our modern day Kratos as God of War game. Actually, that would have been a better Wonder Woman movie than what we got. Kratos awakens in the modern day as the God of War and then that Tina Guo celloist punches the poo poo out of him as Wonder Woman. It would at least be weird and interesting, instead of "World War 1 wasn't actually a global warming of the nightmares man will inflict upon man over petty territory agreements, because Palpatine/Ares is behind it all!" Taintrunner fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 06:26
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Weren't the death wheels in WW2? There is still a chance for them in WW2(Wonder Woman 2)
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Jun 1, 2017 15:15
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Judakel posted:*moves out of the way of a truck instead of stopping it* Yea, he realizes his mistake and is pretty distracted, which leads to Zod beating the poo poo out of him.
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Jun 1, 2017 15:44
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Okay, I just got back from seeing the film earlier and lots of people seem to have gotten a mixed message about the villain was doing and the effect it had on the war. Ares didn't cause WW1 or impel the humans to keep fighting - he only gave them the ideas for the weapons, it was their choice how they used them. His goal was to prove that Zeus' creations were flawed so he sped up their weapons tech research to allow them to gently caress themselves over quicker and more efficiently. He did have some direct influence but as far as we know that was confined to pushing the armistice, the goal there being to stretch things out with a tenuous peace which could end at any minute rather than have the war end too quickly and decisively. The film also specifically explains why it had to be set during WW1 The Amazons have a prophecy about Ares returning during the war to end all wars. The sudden change in the way battles were fought was also supposed to be a sign that Ares was back in the game, it was a major factor in Diana deciding to leave Themyscira. The film doesn't explain WW2 or mention it at all. The part where Diana "leaves the world of man" also happened somewhat differently than what we were expecting but that involves spoilers on the end of the film so maybe we should hold off on that discussion for a week
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Jun 1, 2017 15:47
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Okay, I just got back from seeing the film earlier and lots of people seem to have gotten a mixed message about the villain was doing and the effect it had on the war. The movie directly contradicts this though. When Diana thinks she's killed Ares she's confused as to why the fighting keeps going and then when she actually kills him it straight up stops altogether. The movie definitely sets up the first part of your post and I wish that's where it had actually gone but then we got soldiers smiling at each other like old friends moments after Ares died. Also him pushing for the armistice was just what he was doing on the British side of things. He clearly wanted the war to continue with the super mustard gas and likely would have whispered something even more hosed up to the other side to keep it going. He literally tells Diana his goal is to have a world without humanity. Ghosthotel fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 16:14
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Okay, I just got back from seeing the film earlier So the movie handles itself pretty well? It sounds like your view is contradicted by others, though, regarding the war stuff. All this earlier talk had me kinda down on seeing it. I really enjoyed the soul searching of the first two films, but I'm down for new themes in a new movie if it's done well.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:27
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Drifter posted:So the movie handles itself pretty well? It sounds like your view is contradicted by others, though, regarding the war stuff. The ending doesn't quite stick the landing but the first act is solid and the middle act has lots of fun character moments. If you're a Wonder Woman fan then all the stuff on Themyscira is about the best you could expect in a WW origin movie, from what I hear on social media the WW fans are over the moon. As far as the soul searching goes in comparison to the other films, it's pretty much the inversion of Superman's arc in MoS and the flipside of Batman's arc in BvS where she starts out super positive and certain of her role and what she needs to do and that slowly gets that stripped away until she's not sure of anything. It gets resolved in the final confrontation but that felt rushed and overcooked to me. Ghosthotel posted:The movie directly contradicts this though. Yeah but Diana is still operating under false information at the point where she kills the other guy and expects everything to stop, she doesn't understand what Ares was actually doing and she thinks that men are all good at heart. Also at the end of the battle when Ares has been killed all the remaining humans have survived a battle between two massively powerful supernatural forces that had been tearing up the earth and throwing lightning bolts at each other with explosions happening all around them and their buddies being torn apart before their eyes, they're just really fuckin' happy to be alive.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:48
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She's still ultimately proven right though. She acknowledges a darkness exists in men's hearts but that the power of ~love~ is much stronger. It was only through Ares influence that the darkness took over in men's hearts so at the end of the day he's still responsible for everything. They don't show him starting the war but it's not much of a reach to assume he's responsible when you find out he's playing the sides against each other in his goal to wipe out humanity. It's basically applying "a wizard did it." to the whole war and it's pretty lame.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:58
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SleepCousinDeath posted:Yea, he realizes his mistake and is pretty distracted, which leads to Zod beating the poo poo out of him. So he is just an idiot, then?
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Jun 2, 2017 00:53
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Judakel posted:So he is just an idiot, then? You are not an idiot for not taking the correct decision after a series of new live or death situations.
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Jun 2, 2017 01:06
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Ghosthotel posted:She's still ultimately proven right though. Actually that is a reach, he outright says he didn't do that. And they even had the lasso of truth on him during most of that discussion to underline the fact that he wasn't just making poo poo up. Edit: but the ending was still pretty vague and felt like it had been written by committee which was the main reason I felt it let down the rest of the movie.
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Jun 2, 2017 01:41
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I actually liked everything but the fight climax in this, and feel the WW1 setting was at least more prevalent than the WW2 setting in Captain America. Also, the Aries reads seem kind of off given that he was behind the treaty that led to WW2, which still happened entirely with a dead Aries,meaning his speech about bringing out humanity's nature was correct.
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Jun 2, 2017 03:09
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hump day bitches! posted:You are not an idiot for not taking the correct decision after a series of new live or death situations. Sounds like it.
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Jun 2, 2017 03:17
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Ghosthotel posted:The movie directly contradicts this though. Eh, he said something like the armistice would lead to even greater destruction, which I took as WW2.
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Jun 2, 2017 03:17
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I understand why the did it but man oh man was I disappointed (ending spoiler) to see that you get to hear the last conversation between Diana and Steve. That first time it happens and she's still deaf from the blast while he desperately tries to say his goodbye was perfect. You didn't need to hear a single word to know exactly what he was saying. It was such a heartbreak moment where the severity of the situation doesn't give them the chance to have a proper goodbye but it's war and sometimes you don't even get a chance to say goodbye. Then you flashback to it and he's saying exactly what I thought he was saying! Having said that, I loving loved this movie. It was definitely better than the previous DC films and even though it loses some points on not really sinking into how loving terrible WW1 was, the movie was just fun to watch. Gal Gadot was just great as the fish out of water Diana AND loving badass as Wonder Woman even though they were forced to do the obvious "I have a sword but I can't chop people in half because of the rating so let's shield bash the gently caress out of everyone"
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Jun 2, 2017 03:21
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This is a good movie, but very predictable and the final act is a letdown after how good Wonder Woman's first action on the battlefield is. It also felt a little too long. Gal Gadot is really, really good though.
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Jun 2, 2017 03:56
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Darko posted:I actually liked everything but the fight climax in this, and feel the WW1 setting was at least more prevalent than the WW2 setting in Captain America. Also, the Aries reads seem kind of off given that he was behind the treaty that led to WW2, which still happened entirely with a dead Aries,meaning his speech about bringing out humanity's nature was correct. Sort of. Yeah he was behind pushing for the treaty but he was also putting the idea for the super mustard gas into Dr. Poison's, and Luddendorf's ear. Luddendorf made it clear Germany would not sign the treaty if it had a weapon that destructive on it's side. He was playing both sides against each other the whole time. If anything Ares also whispered into the allies ear how hosed up the treaty would be for germany lmao I actually enjoyed the movie it's just the ending is incredibly sloppy and fucks up some of the characterization for Diana and also makes a mess of the message it seemed to be building up to. Ghosthotel fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 04:24
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Just got back from the theater. Watched it in IMAX 3D which I can say with full confidence adds nothing. Even the IMAX poster's pretty bad. Aside from that I pretty much echo the general sentiment in the thread. Wonder Woman has a strong start and a stronger middle but kinda falls flat for the final act. Ares is pretty much a detractor from the film as a whole. Also I don't like Wonder Woman's theme in the action scenes. Rhygezenguro fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 04:32
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Put me down as someone who gets the criticism but enjoyed the movie and didn't think of the criticism till I read it here. I saw it earlier tonight and thought it was great, deserves success if it gets it (only opening night, weekend and total run numbers still to come). Only disappointments were a few things wrong with Ares' villain montage (they should have showed him as that German higher-up who resembled his English persona too, I felt) and the lack of my favorite Wonder Woman iconic toy (not that we would have been able to see it even if they included it, but still... any comic fan will know what I'm talking about). I look forward to the How It Should Have Ended when it hits YouTube. Possible trailer below. [Batman and Superman are sitting at their usual café table. Wonder Woman is standing nearby.] Batman: Hey, your movie was great. I liked it. Wonder Woman: Thank you. Batman: You totally cleaned up the battlefield in that one scene. Only I could have kicked more rear end there. Wonder Woman: Sure you could have. Batman: No, really, I could have. Know why? Because I'm... Wonder Woman: Shut up. I know a chick with an Alias who's kicked more rear end on screen than your latest actor has in all of his movies combined. [Batman grimaces] Too soon? [shakes her head at Batman and walks away] Superman: Dude, that's harsh. Batman: Shut up. [Fade to Black]
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Jun 2, 2017 07:05
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Darko posted:Eh, he said something like the armistice would lead to even greater destruction, which I took as WW2. He would be responsible for that by extension, too.
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Jun 2, 2017 07:07
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Doflamingo posted:Personally I think killing Zod was fine but the overall script was bad and the acting was bad and even the best action scenes just felt like video game cutscenes. The movie was not good for a whole bunch reasons other than "NOT MY SUPERMAN" bullshit. Except it was good so I'm confused by your post. Also, very excited to see Wonder Woman Saturday!
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Jun 2, 2017 07:53
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I really, really enjoyed it. I do agree about the final third, but I also agree with achtungnight that I probably wouldn't have noticed if not for this thread mentioning it. CGI "final bosses" are pretty much the norm for superhero films these days, sadly. It didn't seem all that jarring after just coming from the same thing in GotG2. Plus, the first two acts are so solid as to be well worth it. There was surprisingly less action than I thought, but the action that was there was really fun and gave a great view at what WW can do. Same with the rest of the Amazons, really. There really was a sense that these women really are super-loving-incredible. I want to see it again this weekend. The entire No Man's Land+town sequence is just one of those things I don't think I could ever get tired of watching.
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Jun 2, 2017 08:20
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It was pretty great, not as grim-dark as the rest of the DCEU even with the whole WW1 setting. The last part could've used a little more build-up from going to the gassed village and then 5 minutes later she's at the weapons factory? Eh, why not. And ofr everyone complaining that Ludendorff didn't give the Super Soldier Gas to his troops, you should brush up in your WW1 history: You want to give a super-weapon to the common soldiers, the same ones that have been hungry, barraged by artillery, lived in trenches from months on the orders of some fat-cat aristocrat general who spends his time behind a desk and throwing balls? That's what leads to  .
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Jun 2, 2017 09:42
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Ghosthotel posted:The movie directly contradicts this though. See, I think a better conflict would be to borrow from the Perez run his scheme there is to start WWIII to gain power, and Diana stops him by using the Lasso of Truth to make him realize that by wiping out humanity, there would be no more war and as such he would be the lone god-king of a dead and empty world. He's actually the one who gives Diana the mission of peace as a result. I feel that would have really worked as a conflict rather than the simplistic 'Ares wants to kill everybody, Diana kills him'. And then Diana can walk away from Man's World in disgust because even without Ares' involvement, the victors put together the Treaty of Versailles and set the stage for WWII, because humans are kind of bastards.
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Jun 2, 2017 10:25
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I enjoyed the movie overall and as far as I can tell I agree with the criticism that the last part was kind of off. Most of the time I didn't actually have a grasp of what was going on in the sense that it felt more like an after thought. At the point that there's smoke signals, everything kind of goes out the window and you'd think you fell asleep (which may have actually happened, maybe that's to blame). But it was still entertaining. My favorite part of Batman v Superman was the intro, which put a context that addressed an unsettling feeling Man of Steel gave me while watching it. Just a "what you're doing is horrifying" kind of thing. And it opened and said, "yeah, horrifying". So I started in high hopes for that movie. This movie didn't have the same function for Batman v Superman. That movie established Wonder Woman in the least heroic way possible, suggesting she willingly avoided WW2 despite serving in WWI. It would be a tough hill to climb to justify that kind of stance. And they really didn't. As a standalone superhero film, this one is structured pretty standard. She has doubt but gets a serious taste of heroism and gets a practically magical result when allies and germans are hugging in the wake of Ares's death. And saw the celebration of armistice. So they kind of had an opportunity to leave WW disappointed with humanity enough to sideline herself but didn't really use it. So she's an even greater turd than before because she beat the literal god of war and released germans from his mind spell and still will watch the holocaust on newsreel and shrug her shoulders. Honestly, that single line in BvS really soured me on Wonder Woman. Perhaps irredeemably. A shame, because her standalone is good fun despite always thinking "you're going to not fight Nazis". Fight the Kaiser but not the Nazis. For what it's worth, the 3D is strong in the first third and then not much of anything after that.
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Jun 2, 2017 10:54
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Maybe she just won't OVERTLY fight the Nazis. Or she''ll be completely out of touch with humanity when WWII happens for (comic book reasons, could be any goddamn thing, war with another dimension or aliens or take your pick.) Superheroes naturally run into the problem where if you run them into the real world you have to ask why they allowed Hilter or whatever, and the answer is never good. Either you rewrite all history and end up with a mess, or you hand-wave it with something like "She was busy keeping the unspeakable evil from beyond our universe from destroying all of existence" or some poo poo.
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Jun 2, 2017 14:58
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I believe DC actually had a reason why the superheroes of that era couldn't kill Hitler, and it had to do with him having the Spear of Destiny or some other magical artifact.
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Jun 2, 2017 15:10
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Snowman_McK posted:I mean, currently, there's a computer game, which boils down a hellish conflict into "Throw grenades at zeppelins while you're on a horse" That's the most fun part of the game!
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Jun 2, 2017 15:26
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Steve Rogers got close enough to punch Hitler but didn't manage to actually kill him, despite being 'stronger than any human' ie. he has the punch of Mike Tyson at his prime, with an armoured glove. This stuff just can't touch 'real world' events at all. Dr. Doom cried about 9/11 and it was the silliest thing ever committed to paper.
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Jun 2, 2017 16:03
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well why not posted:Steve Rogers got close enough to punch Hitler but didn't manage to actually kill him, despite being 'stronger than any human' ie. he has the punch of Mike Tyson at his prime, with an armoured glove. This stuff just can't touch 'real world' events at all. Dr. Doom cried about 9/11 and it was the silliest thing ever committed to paper. I truly believe Marvel believes that Laughter is the Best Medicine, and was trying to heal us all through humor by writing that scene.
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Jun 2, 2017 16:55
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sean10mm posted:Maybe she just won't OVERTLY fight the Nazis. Or she''ll be completely out of touch with humanity when WWII happens for (comic book reasons, could be any goddamn thing, war with another dimension or aliens or take your pick.) The chose to write themselves into a kind of gross corner with BvS though. Like there's an infinite number of ways to write BvS so that Wonder Woman is barely glimpsed through history. As mentioned, be outside of the universe during WW2, frozen, depowered and forced to live as a human, needed back in Amazonia to teach young recruits like her mentor and oblivious due to the shield, amnesia, punishment for breaking some Amazon law for helping in WW1, whatever. Hell, in all of the comic book examples, either the heroes tried but just couldn't defeat Hitler or they were taken forcibly out of the fight. They had a decision, and it's an interesting one, to make Superman the first observed superhuman in their universe. It gives them a clean slate on origin stories because nobody makes a splash at all until present day. They don't have to deal with any nonsense about continuity or tie backs. But then you do want a Wonder Woman WW1 movie, which again was fun to see and you could hide small scale heroics in the fog of that war. But when you bring it back to the original goal of making superheroes a modern thing, they had to make a choice. They made Wonder Woman capable of being a superhero, willing to be one, and having experienced nearly magical victory over a literal god that made enemies hug each other. And then had her match their desired grittiness by making the Godwin's Law of character rock bottoms that they could come up with. Batman was turned into an assassin because of the mathematical possibility of human extinction in the face of the unknown and Wonder Woman sat and watched the worst conflict of humanity and it's most evil personification because mankind couldn't come together. In terms of an event for someone to make up for in future deeds, that's literally the worst one we've got historically. I actually hope they toss it away and retcon her future solo movies to being frozen in ice because that seems vastly preferable to having that in the back of the audience's mind. I'd almost wager they keep having her fight through history and then gas the towns she's helped to hide the evidence. Just ignore that one gross line in BvS.
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Jun 2, 2017 17:24
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Ape Agitator posted:Just ignore that one gross line in BvS. Why did you say that name?
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Jun 2, 2017 18:47
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Could they explain why she left humanity to rot in a theoretical sequel or is the ending to this one that concrete?
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Jun 2, 2017 18:48
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