|
Minrad posted:And I think when people play MMORPGs, they're mostly playing them with friends, which again means dungeons, battlegrounds, whatever group content the game offers. Believe it or not, that's not really the case. Yes, lots of people play with friends or guilds, but tons of people just solo and that's it. Guild Wars 2 tries to cater to both, to varying degrees of success. The overwhelming majority of GW2's content is meant for solo play or ad hoc groups--that is, you run around with a bunch of people in the open world without necessarily communicating with them or actually forming a group. You just follow the blob to do big group events. And when I say the "overwhelming majority" of the content is like that, it's extra true if you look at content added in the last four years or so. They've added few enough 5-person dungeons (actually mini-dungeons, called fractals) that you could count them on one hand, and a few raid bosses. Everything else they've added has been solo or open-world stuff. Ultimately, I agree with you that the most fun to be had in an MMORPG is when you play with friends, but the fact is that's not how the majority of players experience them, hence the ever-increasing focus on solo play or content like GW2's open world events that sort of trick you into playing with other people. And I want to clarify that when I say that MMO quests should take their cues from games like Witcher 3, I don't mean that I think MMOs need to cater even more to solo players, just that if an MMO wants to have a story (as so many do), they might do better to focus on small-scale, self-contained stories like Witcher 3's most compelling side quests, rather than the big save-the-world plots where your character is the most important person ever that many MMOs try to have. I'd adore an MMO that somehow managed to capture the joy of open-ended exploration you can have in Zelda: Breath of the Wild, by the way, especially if it managed to keep that up while exploring with a group of friends. I really, really, really don't think that's actually possible in an MMO, especially over the long term, but if somehow, by some game design magic, it could happen, it'd be insanely good.
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 15:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 04:31 |
|
|
I feel like I'm in the opposite camp. I cannot stand MMOs following the Everquest/WoW/Wildstar formula anymore, because it essentially boils down to either running the same group of dungeons over and over or grinding daily quests. Even playing with friends, that gets really really old. Also exploration is a joke, because 95% of the open world is trivial because only the endgame matters in these games, not to mention the thrill of discovery is dampened by the fact that datamining/wikis are a thing. Monster Hunter and PSO scratch an entirely different itch for me, because I feel like I'm more involved with the combat. And they both drop the pretense of an open world. Hell, I was annoyed at Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate for making me do the solo content main thing before I could progress any further in multiplayer (I hate wystones). I'm not sure, but I feel like games have progressed to the point where just regular multiplayer games do small-group content way better than theme park MMOs these days.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 17:11
|
|
|
Probably one of the reasons the Secret World reboot is being billed as an ARPG.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 17:14
|
|
|
Colgate posted:I'm not sure, but I feel like games have progressed to the point where just regular multiplayer games do small-group content way better than theme park MMOs these days. That is extremely true, and one of the reasons why MMOs aren't really the giant force they were for that short time after WoW exploded. (Well, that, and a lot of really lovely ones came out, and even most of the theme parks that aren't lovely are still pretty boring.) I wonder if there's a great small-group action-RPG out there that I'd enjoy. Something not necessarily in the Diablo vein. (I've tried Monster Hunter and I just can't get a handle on the controls, unfortunately.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 17:24
|
|
|
Colgate posted:I feel like I'm in the opposite camp. I cannot stand MMOs following the Everquest/WoW/Wildstar formula anymore, because it essentially boils down to either running the same group of dungeons over and over or grinding daily quests. Even playing with friends, that gets really really old. Also exploration is a joke, because 95% of the open world is trivial because only the endgame matters in these games, not to mention the thrill of discovery is dampened by the fact that datamining/wikis are a thing. I definitely agree that nowadays, I'm favoring games that encapsulate a part of MMOs rather than playing the MMO itself, as the MMO gets bogged down in a lot of unnecessary baggage. (Irony alert: I am still playing a lot of FFXIV:ARR with my friends, and I have constant battles in my mind as to whether I'm actually having fun or if it's just obligation nowadays) I generally like playing MMOs that have a lot more 'action'-based combat, like TERA. TERA had really impressive combat and fighting dungeon bosses or BAMs was so thrilling, more so than any other MMO I've tried. However, the rest of the game was incredibly boring: constant 'kill 5 this and that, go to next camp, collect 5 things, etc'. It was a hassle to go through that to get to the good stuff (this phrase comes up a LOT for MMOs, I find). Then I realized that I'd have a much funner time playing Dark Souls or Monster Hunter instead, because that captures the best part of TERA without any of the boring stuff (well, apart from the tutorial and occassional egg quest, but you can't win 'em all). Similar thing for stories in MMOs: while FFXIV:ARR has an engaging story, it constantly dilutes itself by having a crowd of fellow 'warriors of light' surrounding the quest NPCs and objectives. The medium it is presented in works against the story, since it assumes that you are 'the one' and has to constantly make pitiful excuses to rationalize the appearance of your party members in group content. I'd prefer playing a single-player story like Witcher or Fallout where it actually works, or to have MMOs actually embrace the fact that you are one-in-a-million instead of some false sole savior (I feel like there may be a few MMOs that have done this? Most MMOs seem to only embrace the fact that you are just a person in the very beginning and then drop it). Another thing I like doing is group content like dungeons or raids in MMOs. But again, in MMOs, they can become very boring. It's more like a synchronized dance routine with very little randomness or variance, leading to boredom and frustration. Compare that with coop games like Payday, Diablo, and so on: they generally have a more loose, random feel to them, allowing more freedom and variance, and even if you lose you don't really since the actual gameplay itself at it's core has a greater feel of satisfaction and engagement. I could keep going on like this: I like the exploration of GW2 but I think games like Fallout and Deus Ex have more constructed, detailed worlds that are fun to explore for rewards, and so on. Point is that MMOs have a problem of not focusing on what they can do well with the genre and instead create a game where 90% of it is getting to the part you like, whereas most single-player games are concentrated affairs where 90% of it is what you want.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 19:03
|
|
|
Bieeardo posted:Probably one of the reasons the Secret World reboot is being billed as an ARPG. I think the main reason for this is that investors want absolutely nothing to do with MMOs and the companies that make them at this point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 22:15
|
|
|
FutureCop posted:Similar thing for stories in MMOs: while FFXIV:ARR has an engaging story, it constantly dilutes itself by having a crowd of fellow 'warriors of light' surrounding the quest NPCs and objectives. The medium it is presented in works against the story, since it assumes that you are 'the one' and has to constantly make pitiful excuses to rationalize the appearance of your party members in group content. I'd prefer playing a single-player story like Witcher or Fallout where it actually works, or to have MMOs actually embrace the fact that you are one-in-a-million instead of some false sole savior (I feel like there may be a few MMOs that have done this? Most MMOs seem to only embrace the fact that you are just a person in the very beginning and then drop it). This is basically why I haven't played ESO yet. I'm actually interested in the game, but I keep second-guessing myself, and then end up going to play Skyrim instead. I've had the game steam-gifted for me for awhile now, and I've read the OP of the thread but I don't know.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 22:55
|
|
|
I like playing with others, just not the organizing aspect of it. GW2's open word content is the ideal way to do it imo, you just run into people doing things at random, don't even need to group up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 07:18
|
|
|
Colgate posted:This is basically why I haven't played ESO yet. I'm actually interested in the game, but I keep second-guessing myself, and then end up going to play Skyrim instead. I've had the game steam-gifted for me for awhile now, and I've read the OP of the thread but I don't know. ESO is a way better single player game than Skyrim believe it or not and the savior of the world stuff is limited to solo instances so while there are other people around for your story they are just the other people who got sprung from hell prison when you did and regular adventurers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 08:27
|
|
|
I really liked playing rogue in WoW circa wotlk, I went back recently and the playstyle is completely different, what's a good game for standing behind stuff and doing fun DPS rotations now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 09:56
|
|
|
Avalerion posted:I like playing with others, just not the organizing aspect of it. GW2's open word content is the ideal way to do it imo, you just run into people doing things at random, don't even need to group up. I found GW2 super boring after I finished leveling to cap on release, but man, that system really owns. I hope more games will pick it up someday.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 10:11
|
|
|
Brain In A Jar posted:I really liked playing rogue in WoW circa wotlk, I went back recently and the playstyle is completely different, what's a good game for standing behind stuff and doing fun DPS rotations now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 15:13
|
|
|
A Spider Covets posted:I found GW2 super boring after I finished leveling to cap on release, but man, that system really owns. I hope more games will pick it up someday. GW2's doing a better job with it too, nowadays. A lot of the newer zones they've added have these big, intricate map-wide meta-events, where events that happen all over the zone lead up to a big, climactic boss battle. Auric Basin, one of the expansion zones, has this great one that leads up to a four-front siege on a city in the center of the zone. It's a really great system and ArenaNet's clearly leaning into it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
GW2 is a game I really have to go back to at some point. Last I heard, they were focused on its dungeon/raid -game which really, really wasn't the game's strong suit. I can never decide on a class in that game either.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 17:05
|
|
|
I tried some GW2 dungeons and it runs into the same problem a lot of "we don't have party roles" MMOs do in that with no real tanks and so no method of aggro control they were just totally chaotic. I found TERA and Blade&Soul to be the same way. Also the GW2 story was just deeply fuckin' dull with that plant-messiah guy, which was a shame because I liked the idea of being able to customise your story somewhat with the char-creation choices. Then I heard they hosed up the story even more by making the main antagonist some Harley Quinn-style crazy plant girl. Like you I keep meaning to go back and check it out because some things it legit did really well, but 2017 has been insane for games. FutureCop posted:I generally like playing MMOs that have a lot more 'action'-based combat, like TERA. TERA had really impressive combat and fighting dungeon bosses or BAMs was so thrilling, more so than any other MMO I've tried. However, the rest of the game was incredibly boring: constant 'kill 5 this and that, go to next camp, collect 5 things, etc'. It was a hassle to go through that to get to the good stuff (this phrase comes up a LOT for MMOs, I find). Then I realized that I'd have a much funner time playing Dark Souls or Monster Hunter instead, because that captures the best part of TERA without any of the boring stuff (well, apart from the tutorial and occassional egg quest, but you can't win 'em all).
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 17:23
|
|
|
Pierson posted:I tried some GW2 dungeons and it runs into the same problem a lot of "we don't have party roles" MMOs do in that with no real tanks and so no method of aggro control they were just totally chaotic. I found TERA and Blade&Soul to be the same way. Yeah i dropped out of GW2 when the harliquin clone was in. I did 2? maybe 3 months of her bullshit (and now i cant even remember her name.) I tried to get back in a year or so ago, just before the expansion, but was hit with constant blackscreens. Which seemed to be a connection problem and not a video card problem, but no one was entirely interested in trying to solve (and i could play other mmo's fine at the time, no disconnections or blackscreens) Even though GW2 is solo, it is really boring solo. Its a good game with 2-3 friends, no static farming crap as you'll always be able to play together. Getting my legendary was easily the best part. me and 2 others all did it together and ended up going seperate routes. i got my precursor from the forge easily and farmed all the mats 1 guy was stupidly lucky with the forge and ended up making a huge fortune with all the precursors he got (then lost it all when his luck ran out) 2nd guy spent more in the forge than i care to say, ended up running every dungeon for a month and bought his precursor. Once we all had them i think we all took a break from the game :/
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 03:57
|
|
|
Wildstar outliving Black Baby Goku really needs to be mentioned somewhere in this thread title.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 04:44
|
|
|
Scarlet's been dead so long, she doesn't even show up in any of the old, repeatable content. Treesus Trahearne basically vanishes for the expansion content and dies irrevocably at the end. There's been some raid content added, but not a great deal. So far, during the current season of the ~Living Story~ each new episode has brought an entirely new PVE zone to screw around in. It stinks that some lore and gear is locked behind raiding, but it hasn't taken over the game the way some of us worried.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 05:05
|
|
|
The problem with GW2 is they thought it was a good idea to put story content into one time events, so the entire first season of the story is gone and never coming back. You have to read a wiki to know what the gently caress is happening
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 06:20
|
|
|
The main problem with that game is that when you take out the trinity you actually have to offer up an alternative and not just hope that anybody can fill any given role at any given time while designing dungeons the way you would in a game with clearly defined roles. Honestly just cutting them is super lazy and I have no idea how anybody can actually stand that garbage game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 09:04
|
|
|
Has any game successfully offered an alternative to the trinity? Mobs have to target a person and this is going to be decided by a threat list of some description or pure random chance, so either they get stuck on the guy with the biggest spells/swords or they pinball around and you end up chasing them across a battle, which loving sucks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 11:59
|
|
|
Pierson posted:Has any game successfully offered an alternative to the trinity? Mobs have to target a person and this is going to be decided by a threat list of some description or pure random chance, so either they get stuck on the guy with the biggest spells/swords or they pinball around and you end up chasing them across a battle, which loving sucks. Not even GW2 did. There, stacking armour will make you a more likely target, so in the raids that are out now someone stacks armour out the wazoo and druids/elementalists are there to heal that guy and also people who gently caress up. It's trinity all over again, but way more obtuse in execution IMO. There's also DDO. Any class can heal or tank just fine if you put some effort in, almost all non-raid content gets soloed at max difficulty at level, most dungeons get run in a BYOH fashion, but as content became ever harder at higher levels, people just made tanks happen and clerics would spend most resources on heals despite having ridiculous offensive power, and eventually the developer put in skills for managing threat to facilitate this dynamic better. Same with Ragnarok Online. Multiplayer is entirely optional in the entirety of the game, but you can get poo poo done much easier/faster/better with a knight + priest + wizard than you would with 1-2 of those missing. Not that that's a bad thing. PVE MMOs are cooperative games first, it's only natural classes which complement each other should have easier time dealing with content. That was my main beef with gw2. It was just berserk meta, stack dps forever, because you can since the lack of real heals or tanks meant fights couldn't dump high damage. I like the idea of heals being optional, that's a good thing. But to just cut them out completely? No thanks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 13:42
|
|
|
CoH also didn't really use the trinity. I mean, there was classes like the Tanker, if you were into that sort of thing, but could also lock down enemies with the Controller. Healers weren't entirely necessary, and a properly played Defender focused on buffs and debuffs also worked. Of course everyone having healing/res inspirations also helped. Though the safety of the trinity meant that everyone wanted an Earth Tanker and an Empathy Defender in their group.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
DDO was an odd one and I would say it wasn't super on purpose but you could replace tanking and healing for 99% of the content with raw damage or, if that fails crowd control. Honestly back when the level cap was still 20 nobody would even dream about doing the hardest content without a decent control wizard and someone to disable traps.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 16:41
|
|
|
FutureCop made a really good point about most people only enjoying a single part of MMO gameplay and just slogging their way through the other content to get to it. For sure I get my "fighting huge bosses" small group fix from Monster Hunter these days, and Breath of the Wild has that exploration/discovery kick of just wandering around that WoW hasn't had since classic. Also I notice Black Desert Online crawled it's way onto the Steam bestseller list for a week or so, which is wild because 'weird and esoteric' is where that game begins.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 19:39
|
|
|
Pierson posted:Has any game successfully offered an alternative to the trinity? Mobs have to target a person and this is going to be decided by a threat list of some description or pure random chance, so either they get stuck on the guy with the biggest spells/swords or they pinball around and you end up chasing them across a battle, which loving sucks. Destiny does fine without a trinity.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 19:56
|
|
|
Colgate posted:This is basically why I haven't played ESO yet. I'm actually interested in the game, but I keep second-guessing myself, and then end up going to play Skyrim instead. I've had the game steam-gifted for me for awhile now, and I've read the OP of the thread but I don't know. Don't bother. I gave it a whirl when it first came out and it felt really stiff and clunky. I bought Morrowind hoping a new class and a new area and time might have been kind to it, but it's still clunky and stiff and not fun. Thankfully they gave me a refund.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
Pierson posted:
As one of the people who hoped onto the BDO band wagon this week Ive got to say it certainly does scratch a certain itch that I cant quite describe. The game's grinding sub is pretty entertaining due to the combat system(I hear this changes post level 50) and the game just has a crazy variety of different systems going on. Theres also not a huge amount of documentation easily available for the game so the need to explore and tinker is definitely there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 22:34
|
|
|
CoffeeBooze posted:As one of the people who hoped onto the BDO band wagon this week Ive got to say it certainly does scratch a certain itch that I cant quite describe. The game's grinding sub is pretty entertaining due to the combat system(I hear this changes post level 50) and the game just has a crazy variety of different systems going on. Theres also not a huge amount of documentation easily available for the game so the need to explore and tinker is definitely there. It really is a fun experience starting out. Playing at the launch with some friends as everyone is slowly discovering poo poo and the depths of what there is to do, the daunting quest to build the world's shittiest boat, going out to sea to explore the world. It's got this amazing up front premise of an open world with tons of stuff to do, and it actually looks like it delivers!!! ... and then it crumbles into the usual Korean grind tropes and open world PvP ganking based on who's invested more time into their gear. Doesn't surprise me that it's popular since I think it just released on Steam, but I imagine it's going to drop really hard.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 23:45
|
|
|
Andrew Verse posted:Destiny does fine without a trinity. CoffeeBooze posted:As one of the people who hoped onto the BDO band wagon this week Ive got to say it certainly does scratch a certain itch that I cant quite describe. The game's grinding sub is pretty entertaining due to the combat system(I hear this changes post level 50) and the game just has a crazy variety of different systems going on. Theres also not a huge amount of documentation easily available for the game so the need to explore and tinker is definitely there. Pierson fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Jun 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 08:25
|
|
|
Pierson posted:Has any game successfully offered an alternative to the trinity? I think pre raids GW2 did well in that each class is basically self suficient, while some classes do have buffs and heals everyone is supposed to dps and keep themselves alive, and tanking or dedicated healers are not a thing. They only hosed this up for raids because that's what some loud hardcore types were asking for and I asumme they tried to bring it that crowd even though raids were a mismatch with their design phylosophy up to that point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 08:26
|
|
|
Pierson posted:Has any game successfully offered an alternative to the trinity? Mobs have to target a person and this is going to be decided by a threat list of some description or pure random chance, so either they get stuck on the guy with the biggest spells/swords or they pinball around and you end up chasing them across a battle, which loving sucks. This was my experience 7+ years ago, but Maplestory kinda did this I guess? Not that it did it well, in any capacity. There basically weren't raids or anything of the sort but you could do literally everything in the game with basically any group or even solo. The problem is that every class was basically the same in execution and patches only made them more similar over time. You had your movement/flash step/double jump abilities, your buffs, your CC, and your Hurricane which was your primary damage skill dealing a metric ton of hits per second at a reduced damage multiplier. There were Tank/DPS/Healer classes, but they were all kind of garbage outside of whatever the latest overtuned DPS character was because the design philosophy of the game was about making GBS threads out as much damage as possible as quickly as possible, with no cooldowns on potions. It doesn't really matter if Tanks or Healers exist when you can just guzzle potions down as quickly as you want, although Clerics were always somewhat desirable since they were the only class with a skill that boosted EXP gained. I quit before I got to that point, but the only thing that really mattered was if something oneshot you or not. If you had enough health to survive a hit, you could tank literally anything. Hell, you could even buy pet equipment to automate it for you when your health dropped past a certain point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 08:43
|
|
|
Avalerion posted:I think pre raids GW2 did well in that each class is basically self suficient, while some classes do have buffs and heals everyone is supposed to dps and keep themselves alive, and tanking or dedicated healers are not a thing. They only hosed this up for raids because that's what some loud hardcore types were asking for and I asumme they tried to bring it that crowd even though raids were a mismatch with their design phylosophy up to that point. gently caress no. They hosed this up in every way since the beginning. No dungeon I've ever played there has been done the way it was meant to, everybody would use glitches and exploits out the rear end because just playing was insufferable, mobs were tuned to the trinity where you have a dude that can take tons of damage and someone else to keep that guy alive, dungeons you couldn't easily glitch were virtually never played and you had to beg forever for some guildies to actually do them with you. Seriously that game if probably one of the best examples on how to not do it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 14:49
|
|
|
Morglon posted:DDO was an odd one and I would say it wasn't super on purpose but you could replace tanking and healing for 99% of the content with raw damage or, if that fails crowd control. Honestly back when the level cap was still 20 nobody would even dream about doing the hardest content without a decent control wizard and someone to disable traps. DDO was also super comformant to d&d tropes, where you'd jump over all the melee rabble and hit that caster in the back asap, because a single lightning bolt could kill just about anything if it rebound from the walls just right, or a shaman landing hold person on you meant you got autocrit to death in 2 seconds by those x4 crit multiplier spears kobolds use. And yeah, the meta for fast clears at 20 was a wizard to cast mass hold on groups of enemies, and then autocrit them to death. I kinda liked the super deadly traps on elite though. On normal and hard, they were just kinda there and annoying at best, but for elite they're just there to destroy people outright and it's great. "No! Stop!" Ding~.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 15:03
|
|
|
Colgate posted:GW2 is a game I really have to go back to at some point. Last I heard, they were focused on its dungeon/raid -game which really, really wasn't the game's strong suit. I can never decide on a class in that game either. They've pretty much abandoned dungeons completely. They do sporadic updates to Fractals of the Mists, which are essentially short dungeons with multiple difficulty levels each where, the higher you go, you start to run into special effects like Diablo 3's rifts. Things like "if you stand too close to your party members you take damage" or "a mini-boss is stalking you the whole time." I like them, but they can also be a bit grindy, because to do the highest-level ones, you need to have ascended armor so you can resist the special Agony status effect or you'll just melt. These days, their PvE updates are focused on open-world PvE and sometimes raiding. Each new chapter of the "Living World" story adds a new open-world zone with new events and world bosses, which is pretty neat, and they're often adding new ways to traverse the maps with different masteries like gliding, launching yourself out of thermal tubes, stuff like that. Morglon posted:gently caress no. They hosed this up in every way since the beginning. No dungeon I've ever played there has been done the way it was meant to, everybody would use glitches and exploits out the rear end because just playing was insufferable, mobs were tuned to the trinity where you have a dude that can take tons of damage and someone else to keep that guy alive, dungeons you couldn't easily glitch were virtually never played and you had to beg forever for some guildies to actually do them with you. Seriously that game if probably one of the best examples on how to not do it. I have to agree with this. To a certain degree, I enjoyed dungeons, but they weren't really engaging PvE challenges. You blob up, stack might, and attack poo poo until it dies. They did a very poor job of making them actually interesting to play. Fractals are better, and so are raids. They've gone a little harder on their "soft trinity" design philosophy, in that your raid will probably have a tank and a healer, but at the same time, most experienced raid groups don't have dedicated healers, and the most common tank is actually a Mesmer whose actual job is to give everybody lots of Quickness but just happens to also be good at not dying. I wish they hadn't thrown out dungeons entirely--I like the idea of longer five-player PvE stuff--but the dungeons they did have were not good examples of how to design group PvE without a role trinity. The newer Fractals are a better example of that, actually. They manage to have good combat challenges that ask players to play different roles in a fight, but not necessarily the classic MMO trinity roles, and your role might change per fight depending on what that fight requires. That was what they wanted dungeons to be, and it only took them goddamn near five years to get there with Fractals  I was worried about raids in GW2 at first but I really don't think they hosed anything up by adding them. The game needed good group PvE and the raids, against all odds, are filling that role pretty well. PvE class balance is perpetually hosed and a few of the classes are just loving pariahs, unfortunately, but that's a separate issue. Harrow fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jun 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 15:12
|
|
|
Morglon posted:...mobs were tuned to the trinity where you have a dude that can take tons of damage and someone else to keep that guy alive... It's been a while since I did dungeons but don't remember this ever being a thing.  Instead i think the "meta" just shifted to whatever comp had the highest dps, but any group could do them, it would just take longer. Speccing for tanking or healing was a mistake because the best way to stay alive was to know how to dodge.I do agree with your other points, dungeons weren't very good but that was due to their design themselves, personally I think they shouldn't have had dungeons at all, just go full in on the open world stuff - that's the meat of the game and where the lack of trinity came over for the best too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 16:00
|
|
|
By that I mean they had way too much HP and some of them hit like trucks. Yeah it was doable but everybody having to dodge all the time did nothing to make it less tedious.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 16:14
|
|
|
That's what ended up pushing the overall meta to "just do as much damage as possible" in pre-HoT GW2. What you wanted was to just stack a shitload of damage and burn down bosses before they killed you, and the focus on bosses having huge HP and doing damage in such large chunks that you couldn't really mitigate reinforced that. If you didn't stack crazy damage, boss fights took loving forever; if you focused on defense, nothing you could do would ever be enough to meaningfully increase your survivability. They really have improved on that design with Fractals, I think, where support actually has a place and bosses manage to be more interesting than "stack Might, output damage."
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 16:20
|
|
|
Avalerion posted:I like playing with others, just not the organizing aspect of it. GW2's open word content is the ideal way to do it imo, you just run into people doing things at random, don't even need to group up. This is me, too. I recently got back into GW2 pretty hard and have really enjoyed just loving around in all the new zones and getting pulled into things. One thing leads to another, and then another, rewards rain down on you, and before you realize it, it's like 2 hours later. Morglon posted:... Yeah it was doable but everybody having to dodge all the time did nothing to make it less tedious. <controversial_opinion> People who complain about the lack of trinity in GW2 all eventually come down to this: they don't want to take responsibility for their own survival and want someone else to carry them. GW2 provides active evasion and invuln frames, you just have to use them. </controversial_opinion> Honestly, though, they are a bit too obtuse about aggro mechanics. Once I learned that characters with the highest toughness and who are closest to the target tend to draw aggro, the game went a lot smoother. It's a little counter-intuitive, so they should really shout it to the hills: If you dress like a tank, you'll be better at tanking.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 16:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 04:31 |
|
|
Blasphemeral posted:<controversial_opinion> People who complain about the lack of trinity in GW2 all eventually come down to this: they don't want to take responsibility for their own survival and want someone else to carry them. GW2 provides active evasion and invuln frames. You just have to use them. </controversial_opinion> I think for me, it isn't so much the lack of a hard trinity in GW2, but rather the lack of interesting roles that really killed it for me. Having no hard trinity is great, I like that. But the original crop of dungeons didn't really give you much do to other than stack Might, dodge telegraphs, do damage. Once they started adding fights with more mechanics, where players need to care about CC for example, or value support like the Chronomancer's Quickness or Tempest's occasional ability to save people from death, or react to other kinds of enemy abilities than just "dodge out of the circle," I think it got a lot more fun. The hard trinity isn't necessary at all for that--I just wanted more to do and more incentive for teamwork beyond "blast fire fields for more Might."
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 16:27
|
|