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What is the best flav... you all know what this question is: This poll is closed. |
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| Labour |
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907 | 49.92% |
| Theresa May Team (Conservative) |
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48 | 2.64% |
| Liberal Democrats |
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31 | 1.71% |
| UKIP |
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13 | 0.72% |
| Plaid Cymru |
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25 | 1.38% |
| Green |
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22 | 1.21% |
| Scottish Socialist Party |
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12 | 0.66% |
| Scottish Conservative Party |
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1 | 0.06% |
| Scottish National Party |
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59 | 3.25% |
| Some Kind of Irish Unionist |
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4 | 0.22% |
| Alliance / Irish Nonsectarian |
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3 | 0.17% |
| Some Kind of Irish Nationalist |
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36 | 1.98% |
| Misc. Far Left Trots |
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35 | 1.93% |
| Misc. Far Right Fash |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Monster Raving Loony |
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49 | 2.70% |
| Space Navies Party |
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39 | 2.15% |
| Independent / Single Issue |
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2 | 0.11% |
| Can't Vote |
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188 | 10.35% |
| Won't Vote |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Spoiled Ballot |
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15 | 0.83% |
| Pissflaps |
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312 | 17.17% |
| Total: | 1817 votes | ||
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MoaM posted:No way Labour wins even a minority after tonight/this week... I think them losing every seat is a bit bold.... Unless you mean them being the largest minority which was always really unlikely anyway. Anyway, one good thing happened yesterday at least: https://twitter.com/IndpndtLiv/status/871055139536240641 1984: Title of a book describing a dystopian future of the UK. Thankfully we haven't quite arrived there yet as the alcohol is still good and the TV doesn't spy on us really. namesake fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 11:23
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jabby posted:If he really did it (he won't) I hope he words it so badly that some scaffolder who accidentally drops a brick on his head gets a surprise 50k. The trial will be a lawyer showing a picture of that tweet to the jury, and asking if it is really likely that someone would kill this dickhead as an "accident". Guy gets convicted ten minutes later.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:23
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Angepain posted:The trial will be a lawyer showing a picture of that tweet to the jury, and asking if it is really likely that someone would kill this dickhead as an "accident". Guy gets convicted ten minutes later. Retrial is the new jury being shown the guys twitter history and jury nullification takes place.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:28
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https://twitter.com/sadladbukharin/status/870958942226173954
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Jun 4, 2017 11:32
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0omDY66Lxc
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Jun 4, 2017 11:35
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So a friend of mine has been talking to me about his political beliefs, and I have questioned him down from a Tory to a libdem. But while he's starting to see all the problems with capitalism, he's asked the dreaded question, what does a socialist society look like? The problem being is that I don't know. Anyone got any good YouTube videos or links to what a good socialist or Communist society looks like? I basically went something something worker coops something mondragon, I'll get back to you....
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Jun 4, 2017 11:41
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It's alright, lads. Tim Farron and Yvette Cooper are on the case.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:48
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BoneMonkey posted:So a friend of mine has been talking to me about his political beliefs, and I have questioned him down from a Tory to a libdem. Depends on what sort of socialist society you want, really. Libertarian Socialist Rants on youtube has a pretty comprehensive set of views on what a (surprise surprise) libertarian socialist society would look like, but that's a pretty far left ideology and not something most people would associate with socialism since it doesn't rely on a strong state. There are plenty of good examples of Democratic Socialist countries around the world or at least countries where Democratic Socialists have been in power, Scandinavia being a good example right now.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:50
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BoneMonkey posted:So a friend of mine has been talking to me about his political beliefs, and I have questioned him down from a Tory to a libdem. Maybe focus instead on the dangers and problems of true free market capitalism, and paint the benefits of a well-regulated capitalist/mixed system with built-in wealth redistribution through progressive taxation, and public services/infrastructure that are run for the people rather than for profit. That's something much more realistic to convince someone of (and is what Labour is aiming towards), and is much more relateable and easy to imagine than a full-blown Socialist utopia.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:50
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Overheard on the tube (yesterday, pre-attack): "Yeah Labour's policies seem pretty great, but the problem is how will they pay for them? There's no magic money tree." These bullshit lines work, goddammit.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:51
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MikeCrotch posted:There are plenty of good examples of Democratic Socialist countries around the world or at least countries where Democratic Socialists have been in power, Scandinavia being a good example right now. Social democrats are not democratic socialists.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:53
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BoneMonkey posted:So a friend of mine has been talking to me about his political beliefs, and I have questioned him down from a Tory to a libdem. My answer would be "before we worry about full-blown socialism, we really gotta get to a social democracy first - something like Norway"
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Jun 4, 2017 11:55
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Yeah, I'd probably aim for a society much like the one we have now, except with public control of all vital infrastructure in the country - roads, police, military, healthcare, fire services, rail, air links, ports, power generation, mining, farming... if it's vitally important to the functioning of the country, it should be controlled and financed by the state through progressive taxation. If you want to set up a cornershop or run a business selling apps online, go nuts with your free market capitalism. (though obviously robust workers rights would apply the moment you employ anyone else)
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Jun 4, 2017 11:56
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Orange Devil posted:Social democrats are not democratic socialists. Still the best examples that can presently be pointed at. I live in London, I "know" as much as anything that I am unlikely to be a victim to this sort of thing, but I do feel worried. But, if it comes right down to it, I realise the fear is irrational. I've been to those pubs, I was walking past parliament a day before the attack there. The thing is that I can't stop these things from happening, certainly not by getting scared every time it happens.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:58
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BoneMonkey posted:So a friend of mine has been talking to me about his political beliefs, and I have questioned him down from a Tory to a libdem. Well because it's supposed to be a genuine reflection of the desires of all the people there's not a definite image of what it'll look like because that's a collective decision and all an individual can do is have their own ideas and put that out to the group while they're building it. Liberals overthrew monarchies with the promise of elected officials in charge instead, they didn't go into it fully aware of how the legislature would actually work. The starting point is thinking about what meaningful worker control is and how estranged from direct control you'd allow before thinking that isn't worker control any more. Orange Devil posted:Social democrats are not democratic socialists. What about the Росси́йская социа́л-демократи́ческая рабо́чая па́ртия? 
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Jun 4, 2017 11:59
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Ewan posted:If you yourself don't know what it looks like (and hence are in no position to judge whether it would be good/bad), why do you want to convince someone else that it's good? I know what I'm fighting against, but not so much what I'm fighting for. I also know that capitalism is bad, but due to its structure it also remove or circumvent any barrier placed apon it. You can't well-regulate a capitalist society for long. So if that doesn't work what are we actually fighting for? We should still keep fighting though. Edit: what's to stop a social democracy sliding back to what we currently live in. You know like they are doing? I'm not trolling here btw, capitalism is poo poo for everyone but the few. BoneMonkey fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 12:02
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Orange Devil posted:Social democrats are not democratic socialists. This has come up in discussions I've had elsewhere, would you mind clarifying the difference?
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Jun 4, 2017 12:03
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Such a blatant dick move by May to suspend campaigning and then come and give a campaign speech from the Prime Minister's podium. I mean in what universe is talking about how you'd give terrorists harsher prison sentences remotely relevant to the security situation rather than a policy announcement for your own party?
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Jun 4, 2017 12:03
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BoneMonkey posted:I know what I'm fighting against, but not so much what I'm fighting for. You don't even need to look at Scandinavia or whatever always gets cited. Just look at the UK in the 70s.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:03
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BoneMonkey posted:So a friend of mine has been talking to me about his political beliefs, and I have questioned him down from a Tory to a libdem. You ask 5 leftists this question and you'll get 15 answers, it's more important that he do his own research and consider what rings truest to his ears, because there are fundamental and irreconcilable differences on the left - particularly when the question of the purpose and continued existence of the state comes up. to my mind the one thing that's worth remembering above all is that any particular political or economic programme should and has to be nothing more than a means to guaranteeing a free society. Too many people on the left get married to a specific ideological platform (the means) and lose all sight of what the actual ends (freedom and equality) are, which is how you end up with tankies defending Stalin in tyool 2017. I think the best thing you can do is point him to a few primers on different strains of leftism (if he's prepared to do a bit of his own reading) and let him form his own clonclusions.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:04
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Maugrim posted:This has come up in discussions I've had elsewhere, would you mind clarifying the difference? Social democracy is basically saying "keep capitalism, tax the poo poo out of it". Democratic socialism is saying "socialise everything, ensure democratic control", but there's a lot of space within both of those terms for some pretty varied specific programmes to arise within each.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:07
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https://twitter.com/sam_kriss/status/870999588806766592 Related: does anyone have links to the three fanfics written about Corbyn becoming Prime Minister back during the original leadership election? There was a Daily Mail one where the country becomes Venezuela and Trump sends in peacekeeping troops, a loving hilarious Guardian one where Corbyn becomes a milquetoast liberal and fires McDonnell to make Chuka Umunna chancellor and everyone loves him and then a parody one where the Labour right form a resistance to Corbyn who has switched the national anthem to a dubstep version of The Internationale and everything catches fire.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:07
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https://twitter.com/fcuk81v4/status/871119552276570112 expert troll
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Jun 4, 2017 12:07
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Yeah Theresa May was explicitly pushing Conservative manifesto pledges like her Orwellian internet plans in that speech (whrn we don't even know if that had anything to do with the attack). It's disgusting and I hope she's called out for it.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:08
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namesake posted:
I get this reference. Also Social Democracy is the Big Lie.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:12
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I already had zero confidence in the Highlander remake, don't make it worse. Also it's illegal to carry a bladed weapon of that size in public, so hopefully someone has notified the Peelers.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:19
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MoaM posted:No way Labour wins even a minority after tonight/this week... I dunno, third attack within two months with Theresa May as PM and previous six years in charge of moving funds from frontline services to centralised snooping doesn't look good for her.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:20
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Jedit posted:Also it's illegal to carry a bladed weapon of that size in public, so hopefully someone has notified the Peelers.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:22
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jabby posted:Such a blatant dick move by May to suspend campaigning and then come and give a campaign speech from the Prime Minister's podium. I mean in what universe is talking about how you'd give terrorists harsher prison sentences remotely relevant to the security situation rather than a policy announcement for your own party? How dare you politicise this tragedy by questioning the Prime Minister!
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Jun 4, 2017 12:22
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Guavanaut posted:If the pigs shoot him in public does that mean they get the £50k? I don't think they are allowed to accept a reward for doing their job.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:24
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Since they seem to have the three attackers bodies and a vehicle I'd imagine that IDing them is nearly done already but I guess if we're no longer telling the Americans anything they'll probably remain secret until after the election so the reporting on this will be really different from the Manchester coverage. That'll mean it'll probably be rehashing many of the mistakes and cuts that the Tories have made regarding that.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:25
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Gonzo McFee posted:I dunno, third attack within two months with Theresa May as PM and previous six years in charge of moving funds from frontline services to centralised snooping doesn't look good for her. That bit didn't happen, by the way. Well, removing them from frontline services did but the intelligence services had the exact same pay and budget freeze, and they even did the NHS trick of dumping more responsibilities on to them without increasing the budget, by putting certain police budgets into the new Joint Security Fund which comes out of the Single Intelligence Account.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:26
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Maugrim posted:This has come up in discussions I've had elsewhere, would you mind clarifying the difference? Also, I don't know if you're familiar with other terms, but assuming you're not, they're usually easy enough to dissect when you figure out that these word-salad terms are often a combination of an economic and political component. For example: Marxism-Leninism combines Marx's economic critique with Lenin's political program, Anarcho-Communism combines the Anarchist political component with Communist economic organisation, Anarcho-Syndicalism is anarchist politically, but with the economic sphere organised around trade union organisation, and then there's Anarcho-Capitalism, which is for pants-making GBS threads morons. This isn't the whole story, since the political component often includes a lot of economic aspects, and vice versa, but as a rule of thumb it's fine enough.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:27
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Flayer posted:I live in London and so do my family. My sister was locked down during the Westminster attack and earlier this evening my girlfriend and I passed through London Bridge. We often shop in Borough Market, we've eaten in Brindisa, we've been to Katzenjammer. There is a very real possibility that people I know and love could be the victims of Islamic terror. You're a disgusting individual telling us that we are we are more of a danger to ourselves than these monsters are. This guy is literally shaking
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Jun 4, 2017 12:27
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Peston also taking the opportunity to ask Emily Thornberry if 'now is the time to ask questions' about people in Labour 'sharing platforms' with terrorist groups. Such an unbelievable oval office.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:28
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Flayer posted:We often shop in Borough Market, we've eaten in Brindisa, we've been to Katzenjammer. There is a very real possibility that people I know and love could be the victims of Islamic terror. And for 20-34 yo men (which I assume most of this thread fits into), that possibility is somewhere on par with 'victim of falling off things'  http://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-are-the-top-causes-of-death-by-age-and-gender/
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Jun 4, 2017 12:32
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freebooter posted:You don't even need to look at Scandinavia or whatever always gets cited. Just look at the UK in the 70s. quite. this is one of those areas where the quirks of history plays a role - the Labour Party in the UK is slightly older than its Norwegian comrade; in that span of time the ideology du jour shifted from democratic socialism to pre-war social democracy. Concretely this meant that Labour UK had Clause IV and the Norwegians did not and thus by the inflationary malaise of the 1970s, despite the best efforts of Gaitskellites, the UK Labour Party was unable to sustain the legitimacy of an incomes policy, unable to sustain the legitimacy of political independence amidst organisational affiliation with organised labour, and indeed unable to realize any outcome in place of industrial strife. at its core was the question of what worker democracy should actually look like. and this question was never successfully answered for the better part of a century - it's not a trivial problem. if at best all one can say is, well, it probably shouldn't like like a worker's soviet, then that still leaves a host of terrible alternatives. the best way to think about this problem in a relevant, contemporary context IMO is to read the entire Myners corporate governance review into the Co-operative Group. It doesn't really matter what your politics is - the point is to reflect upon how you would respond to the actual governance problems that a large mission-oriented organisation would face.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:32
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It is really important to take the incredible emotional response that terrorism prompts, and compare it against your response to fears of many other things that you don't really think about day-to-day. If you find yourself worrying far more about your loved ones dying from terrorism than dying from a car accident, then you should consider worrying more about car accidents or less about terrorism.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:35
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At the Lycee Français waiting for the bf to vote. Never seen armed cops guarding a school before
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Jun 4, 2017 12:35
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Mays speech is littered with dogwhistle Islamophobia to boot. "British values are superior" 
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Jun 4, 2017 12:38
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