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Nickoten posted:Unless I'm misremembering, she never interacts with Dr. Poison nor has Dr. Poison pointed out to her during the gala. Is there a scene before that where people show her a picture or something? There's a picture of Dr. Maru sans mask in the intelligence room, but she doesn't acknowledge it.
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Jun 4, 2017 20:49
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Nickoten posted:Unless I'm misremembering, she never interacts with Dr. Poison or has Dr. Poison pointed out to her during the gala. Is there a scene before that where people show her a picture or something? Nope, the story of Deucalion and Pyrrah has Zeus being responsible for the creation of humanity. Ares is consistently depicted as inimical to humanity and as opposed by the rest of the Dodekatheon. Abrahamic religions don't really have figures actively working for the extermination of humanity. The imagery of apocalyptic war is associated with God delivering punishment onto a recalcitrant humanity, or with humanity attempting to fight God. Nor does the Devil seek to eliminate humanity to bring peace. All this is on top of the story we are told being explicitly said and shown to be untruthful at multiple points during the movie.
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Jun 4, 2017 20:50
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Brainiac Five posted:Nope, the story of Deucalion and Pyrrah has Zeus being responsible for the creation of humanity. Ares is consistently depicted as inimical to humanity and as opposed by the rest of the Dodekatheon. And another story features Prometheus being responsible for the creation of humanity. Also, does Zeus create a half-god specifically to save humanity Ares? Not saying this because I know it not to be true, but genuinely asking since you seem to be privy to versions of the mythology that I am not. And again, you're kind of ignoring the relationship between this movie and Batman vs. Superman. Also, what we're told is not truthful is that Diana is only "breathed life into" by Zeus and that he made a sword to kill Ares. The truth is that Zeus had sex to make her and that she is the weapon to kill Ares. It doesn't really change that aspect of the story much other than make her half-god. quote:Abrahamic religions don't really have figures actively working for the extermination of humanity. The imagery of apocalyptic war is associated with God delivering punishment onto a recalcitrant humanity, or with humanity attempting to fight God. Nor does the Devil seek to eliminate humanity to bring peace. Besides the antichrist playing a pretty prominent role in people's understanding of their relationship to Jesus in Christianity itself, Christian mythology does in fact portray Satan as adversarial to humanity. hiddenriverninja posted:There's a picture of Dr. Maru sans mask in the intelligence room, but she doesn't acknowledge it. I guess that's close enough. It was still kinda jarring in the moment though. Nickoten fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 20:55
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Nickoten posted:And another story features Prometheus being responsible for the creation of humanity. Also, does Zeus create a half-god specifically to kill Ares? Not saying this because I know it not to be true, but genuinely asking since you seem to be privy to versions of the mythology that I am not. There's nothing Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Bahai'i about demigods. This discussion is about whether the movie frames Hellenic mythology and religion through a Judeo-Christian lens, not whether it alters it at all. quote:Besides the antichrist playing a pretty prominent role in people's understanding of their relationship to Jesus in Christianity itself, Christian mythology does in fact portray Satan as adversarial to humanity. You do understand that Ares's goal in this movie is to exterminate humanity because he believes them to be fundamentally monstrous, not tempt them to damnation? There's kind of a big difference there.
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Jun 4, 2017 20:57
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Sir Kodiak posted:It never seriously occurred to me that Ares would be anyone but David Thewlis, from almost the moment he appeared, since he was over-cast for the role otherwise. It's like spotting the murderer on Law and Order. Well, first time I saw him was his minor cameo in Lebowski...
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Jun 4, 2017 21:01
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Brainiac Five posted:There's nothing Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Bahai'i about demigods. This discussion is about whether the movie frames Hellenic mythology and religion through a Judeo-Christian lens, not whether it alters it at all. Your argument was that anyone who believes this movie could be framing Greek mythology through a Jeudo-Christian lens cannot possibly be familiar with either of them. I'm fine with people having different interpretations; that was just a personal attack against a bunch of people's intelligence without much ground. Also yes Christianity has arguably one of the most popular demigods of all time. The scripture doesn't literally call him this, but it sure creates a similar character to demigods of other mythologies. quote:You do understand that Ares's goal in this movie is to exterminate humanity because he believes them to be fundamentally monstrous, not tempt them to damnation? There's kind of a big difference there. Not really, because Ares reveals in the movie that he simply has to give them the means to destroy themselves, and the actual conflict of the movie at that point becomes not whether Wonder Woman can save humanity, but whether she actually believes they're worth saving. Steve's sacrifice makes him the lamb that redeems humanity in her eyes. The point isn't about Ares's character in terms of his own motivations; it's about his character in relation to Wonder Woman's motivations. Sometimes you can play a similar role to a mythological figure without literally being that person in every way possible. Nickoten fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 21:02
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Cute https://twitter.com/hachinana87/status/871187915480588288
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Jun 4, 2017 21:03
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Satan has the most adorable moustache. What a stupid fun dumb wonderful movie. A million miles ahead of all the other DCCU films. I forgot what it was like to have a plot structure or characters in these things.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:04
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Nickoten posted:Your argument was that anyone who believes this movie could be framing Greek mythology through a Jeudo-Christian lens cannot possibly be familiar with either of them. I'm fine with people having different interpretations; that was just a personal attack against a bunch of people's intelligence without much grounds. But that's not a Judeo-Christian interpretation to see Jesus as a demigod. Furthermore, saying someone is wrong isn't a personal attack. This is why I said people can't be familiar with either religion/mythology in order to make the claims they're making. It is, somehow, Christian to have a mortal sacrifice themselves totally and utterly to redeem humanity? Some of the earliest forms of Christianity, docetism and adoptionism, affirmed a mortal Jesus, but they maintained the Resurrection. Forms that denied the Resurrection maintained a divine Jesus. Furthermore, you really don't understand Christian cosmology if you think the struggle is over humanity's material existence like it is in Wonder Woman.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:08
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Brainiac Five posted:But that's not a Judeo-Christian interpretation to see Jesus as a demigod. Furthermore, saying someone is wrong isn't a personal attack. But that's not what Wonder Woman is ultimately about. That's what it appears to be about at the beginning, but the movie then subverts that. Also, yes, it is very much a Christian story to have someone sacrifice themselves to morally redeem humanity. It really just sounds like you are defining "familiarity with a mythology" to mean "never comparing it to anything that has any differences to it whatsoever." Which is fine, but you should know that many people don't really see allegory and metaphor in such strict terms. For example, Frankenstein can be a Modern Prometheus despite being a human and decidedly not a titan! Imagine that!
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Jun 4, 2017 21:14
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Ares is blatantly depicted as a fallen angel, whispering into men's hearts to inflame their worst impulses. The movie isn't exclusively using Judeo-Christian imagery, but it's not ignorant of it.got any sevens posted:Well, first time I saw him was his minor cameo in Lebowski... This isn't that sort of movie and his role wasn't that sort of role.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:14
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Nickoten posted:But that's not what Wonder Woman is ultimately about. That's what it appears to be about at the beginning, but the movie then subverts that. It is absolutely about humanity's continued material existence. Humanity as a whole is not more spiritually redeemed at the end of the movie than at the beginning. Steve Trevor didn't die for people's sins. At the end, everyone is still nationalistically cheering for victory in the War. In fact, what you're doing is defining Christianity as incorporating anything where a sacrifice happens, which means that the story of Isaac and Abraham is no longer Jewish or Muslim, but solely Christian! EDIT: The traditional Greek understanding of Ares was as a force driving humanity towards barbarism and violence, and it's far more of an eisegesis to read him as a fallen angel than as an Olympian god. Brainiac Five fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 21:16
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Steve's sacrifice isn't Christian, it's Captain American 
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Jun 4, 2017 21:18
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Brainiac Five posted:The traditional Greek understanding of Ares was as a force driving humanity towards barbarism and violence, and it's far more of an eisegesis to read him as a fallen angel than as an Olympian god. I was referring to the sequence in the movie where he's explicitly struck down from the heavens and falls to Earth.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:20
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Friends, let's examine the character of Dr Maru. Dr Maru is disfigured. She finds meaning in her work, which involves death and destruction. She is the confidante of a German general who loves killling people. They have a few laughs while killing German officers. So in strolls this handsome stranger at the gala who lavishes her with attention and praise that she's rarely gotten before, but then Wonder Woman strolls in and catches his eye, and Dr Maru resigns herself to the fact that she's ugly before walking away. The camera lingers on her forlorn face deliberately. At the climax of the film, she is cowering helpless before this goddess of a woman who has everything. She's beautiful, she's powerful, earlier she stole a man away from her and now she holds a tank held above her head and is ready to squash her. Steve saw her face and knew to prey on her need for attention and affirmation. What is going on with Dr Maru's character? Dr Maru in the comics is not disfigured, so there was a deliberate change and that change is tied to her confidence about herself. Was there a theme of womens' poor self-image that the film was exploring? What is it saying? Is it fully developed in the film or did the film not follow through on this idea? Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 21:21
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Sir Kodiak posted:I was referring to the sequence in the movie where he's explicitly struck down from the heavens and falls to Earth. That's kind of a weak connection, because it's not connected with any change in his status. He's a god before and a god after, and the implication is that he's destroyed the heavens, since he killed the rest of the gods.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:23
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Brainiac Five posted:It is absolutely about humanity's continued material existence. Humanity as a whole is not more spiritually redeemed at the end of the movie than at the beginning. Steve Trevor didn't die for people's sins. At the end, everyone is still nationalistically cheering for victory in the War. I learned a new word just now, but isn't using mythology as a basis for your fictional work eisegesis to begin with?  Also is there a reason why Isaac and Abraham can't be Muslim, Jewish, and Christian stories ideologically? Maybe it seemed like I'm arguing the movie has nothing in common with Greek mythology, but that's not what I was implying. More that I think it's being portrayed in a way that suits its connection to its franchise. hiddenriverninja posted:Steve's sacrifice isn't Christian, it's Captain American Sadly this is probably more accurate. 
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Jun 4, 2017 21:24
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Brainiac Five posted:That's kind of a weak connection, because it's not connected with any change in his status. He's a god before and a god after, and the implication is that he's destroyed the heavens, since he killed the rest of the gods. He's shown being struck down and falling to Earth, at which point he loses his helmet, his face as a god, and shows his human face. He then stops acting openly as a god and switches to secretly corrupting men by tempting them with power.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:24
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Steve2911 posted:Satan has the most adorable moustache. 
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Jun 4, 2017 21:25
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Brainiac Five posted:It is absolutely about humanity's continued material existence. Humanity as a whole is not more spiritually redeemed at the end of the movie than at the beginning. Steve Trevor didn't die for people's sins. At the end, everyone is still nationalistically cheering for victory in the War. The traditional Greek understanding of Ares was that he was a careful plotter constantly hiding behind facades and using cunning and guile to achieve his ends? You're making poo poo up and using words like eisegesis to hide behind a facade of learning.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:25
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Sir Kodiak posted:He's shown being struck down and falling to Earth, at which point he loses his helmet, his face as a god, and shows his human face. He then stops acting openly as a god and switches to secretly corrupting men by tempting them with power. But that's what he was doing beforehand. The order of the story as we are told it is: 1. Zeus creates humanity. 2. Ares corrupts humanity. 3. Olympian gods fight Ares 4. Ares kills them 5. Zeus fights Ares, seals him away, creates Godkiller, dies. And Ares doesn't say "Oh I went around stomping Godzilla-like" to correct Diana, he corrects her by saying he doesn't control humanity's minds, that he wasn't sealed away, and that she's the weapon Zeus made to kill him. Furthermore, Ares puts his helmet back on freely very shortly afterwards. The mask of divinity isn't presented as a thing he's lost at any point. Nickoten posted:I learned a new word just now, but isn't using mythology as a basis for your fictional work eisegesis to begin with? You're saying that sacrificial actions are automatically Christian symbolism, which denies sacrificial actions in other religions and mythologies. farraday posted:The traditional Greek understanding of Ares was that he was a careful plotter constantly hiding behind facades and using cunning and guile to achieve his ends? That's also not the traditional Christian understanding of the Devil, either. You seem to be arguing that any deviation from Hellenic religion and mythology is automatically Christian in nature.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:29
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Brainiac Five posted:The mask of divinity isn't presented as a thing he's lost at any point. Lucifer is still a godlike being, so I'm not sure why you think this is important.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:31
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Brainiac Five posted:That's also not the traditional Christian understanding of the Devil, either. You seem to be arguing that any deviation from Hellenic religion and mythology is automatically Christian in nature. mmmhmmm The devil in Judeo-christian myth is not portrayed as a careful plotter constantly hiding behind facades to achieve his ends through cunning and guile?
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Jun 4, 2017 21:33
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Brainiac Five posted:Furthermore, Ares puts his helmet back on freely very shortly afterwards. The mask of divinity isn't presented as a thing he's lost at any point. The mask he's wearing is clearly linked to a time of divinity, while the scene you're referencing is Ares forming new armor from the munitions surrounding him at the site of the final battle. We're also told by Hippolyta that, paraphrasing to the best of my memory, not everything about the story was true. Which is why Ares stating that he "didn't corrupt humanity" is very much in the vein of Lucifer. The story states that Ares corrupted humanity, which is Diana's argument. That if she kills Ares that people will return back to normal. Ares counters this statement by arguing from his own perspective that he knew humanity was inherently evil, and he was merely "suggesting" things at them. The film seems to imply that Diana and Ares were somehow simultaneously correct, since Ares dies and we get magic hugging but then World War 2 still happens and we can presume that more human conflicts happen. Ares' direct influence was there, but there's no going back once ideas are learned and behaviors are established. As many people have said, I don't think this prevents a synthesis of Judeo Christian and Grecian mythological imagery.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:36
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Sir Kodiak posted:Lucifer is still a godlike being, so I'm not sure why you think this is important. I mean, this entire line of argumentation tells us that Journey to the West is a Christian story because Monkey, Pigsy, and Sandy are all creatures thrown down from Heaven. Either we take such a (uselessly) broad understanding of this symbolism, or we take a narrower one which understands Christianity as being more about "a guy fell from the perfect heavens to the flawed earth". farraday posted:mmmhmmm The devil in Judeo-christian myth is not portrayed as a careful plotter constantly hiding behind facades to achieve his ends through cunning and guile? No, he is not. Because Christianity is not about some all-powerful force of evil which no one can resist, but about humanity having an inherent inclination to evil which can be counteracted through divine grace. The Faust story is a classical example of this. Corrosion posted:The mask he's wearing is clearly linked to a time of divinity, while the scene you're referencing is Ares forming new armor from the munitions surrounding him at the site of the final battle. We're also told by Hippolyta that, paraphrasing to the best of my memory, not everything about the story was true. Which is why Ares stating that he "didn't corrupt humanity" is very much in the vein of Lucifer. The story states that Ares corrupted humanity, which is Diana's argument. That if she kills Ares that people will return back to normal. Ares counters this statement by arguing from his own perspective that he knew humanity was inherently evil, and he was merely "suggesting" things at them. The film seems to imply that Diana and Ares were somehow simultaneously correct, since Ares dies and we get magic hugging but then World War 2 still happens and we can presume that more human conflicts happen. Ares' direct influence was there, but there's no going back once ideas are learned and behaviors are established. Nobody said it was a "synthesis", but I don't think there's really anything particularly Christian (let's drop the Judeo-, since nobody is arguing for Jewish connections) about this except if we treat Christianity as imperialistically universal.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:37
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Guys, arguing over Greek mythology is boring, let's talk about womens' self-image issuesSteve Yun posted:Friends, let's examine the character of Dr Maru.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:38
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Brainiac Five posted:I mean, this entire line of argumentation tells us that Journey to the West is a Christian story That would be a weird result for this line of argument because I'm not even saying Wonder Woman is a "Christian story."
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Jun 4, 2017 21:39
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Sir Kodiak posted:That would be a weird result for this line of argument because I'm not even saying Wonder Woman is a "Christian story." Okay, so let's amend that to the precise terminology that will allow you to engage with the question: Is the symbolism of the Monkey King being tossed down from the heavens after fighting the gods Christian?
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Jun 4, 2017 21:40
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Corrosion posted:The mask he's wearing is clearly linked to a time of divinity, while the scene you're referencing is Ares forming new armor from the munitions surrounding him at the site of the final battle. We're also told by Hippolyta that, paraphrasing to the best of my memory, not everything about the story was true. Which is why Ares stating that he "didn't corrupt humanity" is very much in the vein of Lucifer. The story states that Ares corrupted humanity, which is Diana's argument. That if she kills Ares that people will return back to normal. Ares counters this statement by arguing from his own perspective that he knew humanity was inherently evil, and he was merely "suggesting" things at them. The film seems to imply that Diana and Ares were somehow simultaneously correct, since Ares dies and we get magic hugging but then World War 2 still happens and we can presume that more human conflicts happen. Ares' direct influence was there, but there's no going back once ideas are learned and behaviors are established. Ares confirmed everything was true while being bind by the lasso of truth, plus Diana's closing monologue has her stating she's aware now that both darkness and love are within mankind's heart, basically giving the reason to Ares.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:40
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Brainiac Five posted:Okay, so let's amend that to the precise terminology that will allow you to engage with the question: Is the symbolism of the Monkey King being tossed down from the heavens after fighting the gods Christian? I'm not familiar with Journey to the West, so I don't know. Is there a popular film adaptation that depicts him on-screen floating before god, then literally plummeting to Earth, stripped of his full godly glory?
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Jun 4, 2017 21:44
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Brainiac Five posted:Nobody said it was a "synthesis", but I don't think there's really anything particularly Christian (let's drop the Judeo-, since nobody is arguing for Jewish connections) about this except if we treat Christianity as imperialistically universal. I don't think it's hard to grasp that it's implicit to the reading people were making, which, again, implies that the Grecian imagery is often a vector for other types of imagery. quote:Ares confirmed everything was true while being bind by the lasso of truth, plus Diana's closing monologue has her stating she's aware now that both darkness and love are within mankind's heart, basically giving the reason to Ares. Ares confirmed what he was saying was true, but remember that Hippolyta also told a story. I think it's important to realize that it can be possible to tell the truth without necessarily explicitly contradicting what Diana thinks is happening. Diana never asks him to "Tell me if what I believe is true or not." We get enough visual confirmation that some notion of what Diana believed was correct once Ares dies. My point was that Hippolyta's childhood stories were what Diana had to be at odds with, that's what necessitates Steve Trevor to do what he does, to show Diana "The Light." Because what Hippolyta said was at that moment in question, precisely because of what you point out. If it wasn't clear, I was implying that Hippolyta sowed a particular direction in Diana while also planting the doubt. "They don't deserve you." She doesn't believe what she's saying.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:48
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'm not familiar with Journey to the West, so I don't know. Is there a popular film adaptation that depicts him on-screen floating before god, then literally plummeting to Earth, stripped of his full godly glory? A key part of the original novel does depict him getting thrown down to Earth and sealed in a pile of rocks. Corrosion posted:I don't think it's hard to grasp that it's implicit to the reading people were making, which, again, implies that the Grecian imagery is often a vector for other types of imagery. Ah, the implicit reading of "they made it Christian" is actually that it was an egalitarian synthesis of the two materials? I don't think so, buddy.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:51
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Brainiac Five posted:A key part of the original novel does depict him getting thrown down to Earth and sealed in a pile of rocks. So, no.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:53
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Brainiac Five posted:Ah, the implicit reading of "they made it Christian" is actually that it was an egalitarian synthesis of the two materials? I don't think so, buddy. It's ironic you used a term about "personal agenda" in readings. Because it's very clear you have a rigid notion of how texts can work, or how something can have partial echoes and allusions to other works... which, again, was something someone told you much, much earlier. I didn't say it was "egalitarian", I said it was a synthesis. You're presuming what I think about Wonder Woman's use of the cinematic medium and how it seems to feel required to shoehorn a story about gods because the first and last scenes of the movie make a very direct gesture towards Batman vs Superman and, by extension, Man of Steel. Which are using similar imagery in much more competent ways. But yes, yes I'm sure you think I'm thinking some kind of thing. Corrosion fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 21:54
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Sir Kodiak posted:So, no. Please elaborate, I can't tell if you're saying "no, it's not Christian" for an unexplained reason, or if you're saying "no, you didn't agree with my exact wording, therefore it's not Christian", or what. I mean, Pigsy is someone who did get stripped of his divine glory and tossed down to Earth, but I suspect you will continue to avoid engaging with the underlying argument that "this motif is not uniquely Christian or Abrahamic in origin". Corrosion posted:It's ironic you used a term about "personal agenda" in readings. Because it's very clear you have a rigid notion of how texts can work, or how something can have partial echoes and allusions to other works... which, again, was something someone told you much, much earlier. I didn't say it was "egalitarian", I said it was a synthesis. You're presuming what I think about Wonder Woman's use the cinematic medium and how it seems to feel required to shoehorn a story about gods because the first and last scenes of the movie make a very direct gesture towards Batman vs Superman and, by extension, Man of Steel. Which are using similar imagery in much more competent ways. It's explicitly clear you're a condescending dickhead, since your entire argument is to spit on me, then declare that Christianization should be primarily understood as a synthesis rather than an imposition, then write an incoherent sentence, then talk about how, in your opinion, the movies which are explicitly Christian have much better Christian imagery. Like, no poo poo, dumbass. Brainiac Five fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 21:56
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Steve Trevor tells Diana precisely what she needs to know prior to her conversation with Ares: it would be nice if there was a big bad that she could kill and wipe away all this hatred in humanity but there is not. Instead, people caused the war and continue fighting because to some degree, humanity is warlike. Hell, Luddendorf glories in war and believes it brings the best out of humanity and this was not under any influence of Ares but Luddendorf's own bloodlust. Diana didn't know it yet but she was fighting human nature, not Ares. Steve knew it but as this is a coming-of-age story for Wonder Woman, it makes sense that her naivete would eventually be exposed. As for the syncretism of Greek/Judeo-Christian mythology, it seemed pretty blatant to me. Zeus came across as far more Abrahamic God than Greek, though the story that was being told was whitewashed so that Diana didn't know her true purpose. Ares as a subtle influence that just pushes people a little further than they know they ought is pretty close to the evangelical view of the devil. Diana even had a few cruciform poses after killing Ares. I think the imagery was close enough that a Christian who little to nothing of Greek mythology would get the symbolism. All that said, from the very beginning, we're given an out: there's a scene where Earth is shown. The planet is covered in high clouds, many contintenal features are muted, and the whole thing looks ethereal. Yet, it zooms in on Paris. I was struck how non-Earth like the Earth looked, if that makes sense. From the opening shot, we're visually told that this is a mythological tale and that we need suspend some disbelief. Wonder Woman (the movie) explicitly makes a point of this as a foil to MoS and BvS's gritty realism.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:58
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WW isn't real Greek mythology because they just gave lightning bolts to everyone who bothered to show up but that's supposed to be Zeus's thing. Unless Thundaga is just contagious?
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Jun 4, 2017 21:58
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Ferrinus posted:WW isn't real Greek mythology because they just gave lightning bolts to everyone who bothered to show up but that's supposed to be Zeus's thing. Unless Thundaga is just contagious? Obviously thunderbolts transfer if you kill the person who has them, like in the masterpiece Chronicles of Riddick.
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Jun 4, 2017 22:00
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Ferrinus posted:WW isn't real Greek mythology because they just gave lightning bolts to everyone who bothered to show up but that's supposed to be Zeus's thing. Unless Thundaga is just contagious? Not contagious, hereditary!
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Jun 4, 2017 22:00
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DC Murderverse posted:Not contagious, hereditary! Oh yeah thanks Jean-Baptiste Lamarck that makes perfect sense.
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Jun 4, 2017 22:02
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