anti_strunt posted:

Hello. Again though, I think this ties in with the generally greater tactical depth to Infinity. The equipment given to a single guy will have a far bigger impact than the equivalent in 40K.

anti_strunt posted:

The point is that when people talk about GW "missing out on the last decade of game design", the biggest thing is that today we known that the real core of game design is the action economy, not fiddling around in the barren design space of +/- gun stats.

quote:

The best loving book they ever put out. Good God, if Anvil Industry's Regiment Builder had been around then I've would've spent so much drat money...

tallkidwithglasses posted:

Texmo posted:

Honestly I'd be fine playing against that army too - it's just that, to me, Mantic models feel like you're paying money to receive a painting chore that will look ugly no matter what, so why spend your money on that instead of just papercrafting?
Those space marines vs warpath comparisons might as well be comparing space marines to those cheap rear end russian miniatures as far as I'm concerned, like, you could buy $100 for a handful of good looking miniatures that are worth spending time painting because you can make them look nice (or at least serviceable with a base color and wash) but GW is actually a rip off because for $100 you could instead buy a ton of ugly garbage.

Texmo posted:

Honestly I'd be fine playing against that army too - it's just that, to me, Mantic models feel like you're paying money to receive a painting chore that will look ugly no matter what, so why spend your money on that instead of just papercrafting?
Those space marines vs warpath comparisons might as well be comparing space marines to those cheap rear end russian miniatures as far as I'm concerned, like, you could buy $100 for a handful of good looking miniatures that are worth spending time painting because you can make them look nice (or at least serviceable with a base color and wash) but GW is actually a rip off because for $100 you could instead buy a ton of ugly garbage.

NTRabbit posted:

Except those Mantic Enforcer models are better looking than Space Marines, and the same production quality

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

Man, the real problem is this:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Imperial-Guard-Cadian-Shock-Troops?_requestid=3944251

48 dollary doos for 10 decent models but no heavy weapons.


And then this:

http://www.warandpeacegames.com.au/Perry_Miniatures_Afrikakorps_German_Infantry_2B_p/2bd-pwwii2.htm

80 dollarydoos for 76 models including a huge variety of heavy weapon options(LMGS, ATRs, mortars, SMGS!), 3 head options per model, and the sculpts are fantastic, the perrys are great.

Texmo posted:

I guess it's difference in opinion like Atlas Hugged said, because I think the Enforcers, and everything else I've seen by mantic, have intensely uninteresting designs.
Except for the 'same production quality' part, you either haven't touched a recent GW kit, or have a very interesting definition of 'the same'


Yeah I guess when you're literally competing against this, then it's not good business sense to have niche pricing.

Texmo posted:

Except for the 'same production quality' part, you either haven't touched a recent GW kit, or have a very interesting definition of 'the same'

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

Are you really comparing the Perry Brothers, who did the sculpting on the Green Knight, to loving army men?

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

Are you really comparing the Perry Brothers, who did the sculpting on the Green Knight, to loving army men?

It's also a bullshit point generally. Moving into niche products you can get a leman russ which is a lumpy dog turd of a kit or a premium tank kit with clear plastic parts, fully articulated track, fully detailed interior, more metal parts than the leman russ has parts and tons of exterior customization options for basically the same money. If you're willing to settle for just some metal etched parts and and a fully detailed interior it's like half the price.

It's close to home because some of my friends are picking up 40k again and I'm like... I could buy some GW kits or I could just buy some Perry dudes, call them IG and move on with my life.

Texmo posted:

If you compare the Perry Bros. sculpts with those Bucket Soldiers, you'll feel the exact same as I do when people compare GW kits to Mantic.
Perry's stuff is cheaper because they don't own the World War 2 IP, and since they're competing against anyone who feels like making some little army men, they can't price as they could if they owned the IP to their sculpts.
A more accurate comparison would be Wyrd, or Corvus Belli, or Privateer Press, where the prices start to look awfully similar.

muggins posted:

It's also extremely over complicated

tallkidwithglasses posted:

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

I'd accept a reasonable price premium to reflect the overheads, but it's not reasonable given how limited the product is. We're comparing $1.05 per figure including three head and weapon customization options vs $4.80 dollars a figure with none of that, though I do think they have more leg/torso flexibility (it's been a while since I made an IG kit). The Perry's stuff is awesome value yes, but seriously?

The comparison is sillier when you look at kits like the Lemon Russ. Compare the Leman kit to this https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6253.htm

Ilor posted:

Dark Eldar Slave Girls'.

Texmo posted:

You're missing the point. They are not the only miniatures company who produce 1/35 scale Tiger tanks; they are competing with Tamiya and plenty of other companies who produce WW2 tanks.
Games Workshop are the only company who can (legally) produce Leman Russ tanks, so have effectively no competition.
This is why you should be making comparisons to Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, other companies who own their IP and have effectively no competition.
They, along with GW, make attractive, distinctive miniatures, and price them accordingly, their main competition vector being the strength of their IP, not the price of their models.

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

I don't really agree? I mean, I see your point - you're saying that Perry WWII guys are an imperfect substitute for GW miniatures and the reduction in utility I'd get from a company of Perry dudes vs a company of IG is worth ~$550 dollars.

Which is, what, 5 triple AAA games and a trio of board-games?

Partly because I no longer really enjoy playing 40k (due to the fundamental failing of the game to have an central thesis/mission statement).

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

I don't really agree? I mean, I see your point - you're saying that Perry WWII guys are an imperfect substitute for GW miniatures and the reduction in utility I'd get from a company of Perry dudes vs a company of IG is worth ~$550 dollars.

Which is, what, 5 triple AAA games and a trio of board-games?

I don't see it.

Der Waffle Mous posted:

Aren't those sculpts like literally 30 years old were originally from a Thrud the Barbarian thing?

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

and move on with my life.

Texmo posted:

You can see that maybe it's worthwhile to buy Perry army men instead of Bucket army men due to the value in the quality upgrade right?
Intellectual Property inherently makes things more valuable, because people want their Guardsmen to look like Guardsmen and not Historical Soldier, and so GW can charge more for their Unique Product.

edit: Yeah, also what Atlas Hugged said.

Atlas Hugged posted:

I think he's more saying that Perry should be compared to other historicals and not to GW because they face different types of competition. It's not a question of utility. Comparing Perry to GW is kind of like comparing EA to GW. Perry and GW are only superficially making the same product.

Atlas Hugged posted:

Alternatively we can use Perry as something of a baseline for what well designed, high quality plastic miniatures can be produced and sold for presumably at a profit. If anything it demonstrates how dumb GW fans are for purchasing hover-sled-trucks at whatever that's being sold for all in the name of chasing an IP.

Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:

like a better way to mock infinity would be pointing out its eurotrash anime knockoff aesthetic

Texmo posted:

I don't really think it's the network effect, because that doesn't really explain how stuff like this for a nowhere-near-as-popular game costs $135
https://us-store.warlordgames.com/products/us-konflikt-47-starter-set

especailly when you compare it to, say, the new 40k set which is $160, and has two factions.

Atlas Hugged posted:

I'd love to see sales numbers on that.

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

someone with the aesthetic sense of a teenage boy

Texmo posted:

Yeah i was looking to make some other point which I promptly forgot when I saw the ridiculous price

Texmo posted:

Yeah i was looking to make some other point which I promptly forgot when I saw the ridiculous price

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

modern gw stuff feels like watching a trailer for a transformers movie, it's obvious that all that stuff requires a high level of technical skill but it still looks like garbage

having access to fancy tools is great if you have the talent and self-restraint to use them well but they just make things worse when you put them in the hands of someone with the aesthetic sense of a teenage boy

Ilor posted:

And that is exactly the defense people give of CB - the sculpts are old, yadda yadda. There's new cheesecake too, for both companies. Boobie-daemonettes, anyone?

Also, I'll take cheesecake minis over fluff that involves women being only good for pure-blood sacrifices for psychic uber-menschen any day of the week.

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

Yeah, but I obviously disagree - I feel they are competing in the same market segment. I mean, this is the death thread. A lot of people here have probably stopped playing 40k at some point. What they did they do instead? In my case it was take up other hobby activities (RPGs/computer games/board games) and play other wargames (both hex and chit and model based). In a very real sense 40k (which is GW rules + GW models) is competing against Chain of Command (which is Two Fat Lardies Rues + whoevers models) as well as Warmahordes. The big difference is more people play 40k and that is a big advantage.

So this is where the 'GW is charging a premium price for a premium product' hits a wall for me. The value isn't the IP - it's the network effect. It's a lot easier to get a game of 40k than a game of Chain of Command. That's real and that has value, but you cannot really sell me that it has that much value because the game.. just isn't that exciting as a piece of tactical gameplay.


Edit: Yeah, this is how I was looking at it - is the network effect worth literally paying a 350% price premium?

Hamshot posted:

Woah woah woah, don't get too crazy now.

I'd like to listen to the thought process of goons that hate everything GW but can't stop posting about it. Do they wake up with an urge to go onto the internet and tell everyone how much they don't like a toy company they've had nothing to do with for the past 4+ years, or does it slowly seep into their mind as the day progresses?

Do they see things in their day to day life that triggers off this hatred, such as the array of GW product squatting on their nerd store shelf space that could otherwise service perfectly good Pop! Vinyl figures?

Perhaps they're disgusted at how their friends like one clearly inferior toy tank that has a host of rules over a different toy tank for the same price but features photo-etched parts they could let their imagination run wild inventing rules for!

Then, hark! While angry glaring at a toy company's range that inexplicably refuses to die in their accustomed position they assume for half an hour every day they hear something: the sounds of wargaming! They spin around, luxurious locks of long hair (carefully restored to a fine grease sheen as nature intended) gently brushing gathered dust off the warmachine boxes to spy upon the game. What could it be, a fine game of Infinity miniatures with its incredible depth? Perhaps they are playing a pick-up game of frostgrave as is so common in his headcanon?

No! No! No!

It is the terrible game, the wretched game, it is W A R H A MM E R!

The nerve! The folly! Do they not see the mistake? Look at how they move their models in this most shallow and depthless of games! Spy upon them looking up and using rules for their units in this most bloated and overcomplex of games! Don't they know they could be playing with a free unpopular and untested ruleset they got online, moving tanks of all makes and time periods and scales instead!? Why this makes the goon so mad! Merely marching right over to the players and preaching the folly of their ways would be insufficient and require human interaction, no sir, this requires more drastic action! He must post in the Death Thread of Something Awful Dot Com!

Moola posted:

Is this post real???

Pidgin Englishman posted:

Is any of this real? Did they really throw the IP for the best selling fantasy game in the bin? Does anyone care?

Skulls.

Lord_Hambrose posted:

Lol if you think people who want to play 40k has that much overlap with people who want to play historicals. You need to remember that every historical game is just an insect compared to the might of Games Workshop.

I like historicals personally, and I love Perry Brothers minis and Too Fat Lardies to death, but try asking the average 20 something if they want to get a game of Sharp Practice in.

This is also setting aside the section of people who think playing a fun game about real people who have been killed in horrible war is deeply disturbing. No matter how cool the tanks are, if you play Germany in WW2 games there is just a little part of you that is OK having fun as the "systematic atrocity" guys.

Indolent Bastard posted:

Don't quote him, it defeats having him on ignore. TIA.