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oliwan posted:lol dude, the finale isn't even trying to go for ambiguity -- it's super obvious that Nora's is lying, that's the whole point, and it makes the finale so much better for it. The thematics, the plot, the whole narrative works towards this climactic scene with Nora's story, and none of it works if you take Nora's story at face value. If they wanted to make it ambiguous, they would've at least filmed or showed part of the story she tells. Remember that time you complained about 302 by saying that the show should've been co-written by a 'real writer' like Perrota, who literally co-wrote the episode you were complaining about?
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Jun 6, 2017 17:15
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Even if you ignore all the evidence to the contrary that multiple posters have offered in this thread, and you somehow still believe Nora's story... why would you? The lie is so much more beautiful for Nora, Kevin, and the whole show. Believing the story is doing the show a huge disservice, and that's coming from me.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:20
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oliwan posted:Even if you ignore all the evidence to the contrary that multiple posters have offered in this thread, and you somehow still believe Nora's story... why would you? The lie is so much more beautiful for Nora, Kevin, and the whole show. Believing the story id doing the show a huge disservice, and that's coming from me. Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Remember that time you complained about 302 by saying that the show should've been co-written by a 'real writer' like Perrota, who literally co-wrote the episode you were complaining about?
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Jun 6, 2017 17:21
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Remember that time you complained about 302 by saying that the show should've been co-written by a 'real writer' like Perrota, who literally co-wrote the episode you were complaining about? lol who loving cares. Maybe try to discuss what I and multiple other posters are saying, instead of pulling a post about ambiguity out of your rear end that doesn't make sense in the slightest?
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Jun 6, 2017 17:26
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I find these arguments not compelling enough to make the leap from Nora could be lying to Nora must be lying. On top of that, your shitpost style makes people reluctant to interface with anything you say at all.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:30
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Boris Galerkin posted:Your next thoughts should be: "I need to do more tests. Where am I? Can I go back? How is this possible? How can I explain this? Can I take things back with me?" Your next thoughts should be: "Holy poo poo it worked now let me find my wife/husband/son/daughter".
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Jun 6, 2017 17:31
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Can't we all just let the mystery be.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:32
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I have no problem admitting that there are plot holes in the show WRT the scientific method. I hope this brings you peace.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:33
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Saying "the ending of LOST meant they were dead all along" is a Literally Incorrect Interpretation. Saying "the end of Leftovers is intentionally ambiguous as to whether Nora was lying or not" is a Literally Correct Interpretation. You can read any one of the interviews with Lindelof wherein he, verbatim, confirms that. Now you can think the execution was unsuccessful, or you can think there's only one clear answer, but the intention was ambiguity, period, end of story.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:37
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oliwan posted:and that's coming from me. I get why you said this here, but you should stop this.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:37
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Boris Galerkin posted:It makes no sense that it's real.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:40
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Saying "the ending of LOST meant they were dead all along" is a Literally Incorrect Interpretation. Saying "the end of Leftovers is intentionally ambiguous as to whether Nora was lying or not" is a Literally Correct Interpretation. You can read any one of the interviews with Lindelof wherein he, verbatim, confirms that. Now you can think the execution was unsuccessful, or you can think there's only one clear answer, but the intention was ambiguity, period, end of story. Ah yes, authorial intent 
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Jun 6, 2017 17:40
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Yeah I immediately was like "why wouldn't this guy immediately build a bridge back" in the moment of Nora's story, but the answer is really simple: Why would he? He literally was the guinea pig of his invention, if he really wanted to test to ensure it worked he would probably send someone else, not himself. And that's not even taking to account complacency/inertia, which combined with how difficult life would be in 2% world means he might lose the desire to build a way back, even assuming he wanted to in the first place.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:45
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Ashrik posted:I find these arguments not compelling enough to make the leap from Nora could be lying to Nora must be lying. Also, in Nora's story, she mentions a man who was in a grocery store and then suddenly all alone. Isn't that the parallel to Grace's story about being a grocery store and then having the cashier depart in front of her? It's not confirmation one way or the other, but like David Burton appearing in Kevin's journeys to the "Other Side," it's just enough to sow the seeds of belief. I think it was Grace's story anyway, I need to rewatch this season (and series) now that it's all wrapped up.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:50
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I feel like practically speaking the scientist couldn't build another machine in the 2% world just for Nora, at least not quietly, with how much more effort it would take to get the resources for the machine and how much more desperately people would probably want to go back from that world. In fact, even if he got where he was trying to go, and was happy, he probably would quickly catch on that most people there were struggling dealing with an empty world. It would surely cross his mind that he could unite families and people here on this side of the world with the prime world before Nora came asking.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:51
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Fast Luck posted:I fully agree with your thinking, but devil's advocate, this dude went through a machine that might kill him because he was depressed and broken, not because he was a scientist passionate about a discovery. Yeah, which dovetails nicely with correct answer to the question being who cares about babies or cancer, I want out of here. Plus the process requires a suspension of irradiated metal particles, right? I'm guessing that kind of stuff isn't easy to gather with only 2% of the population, it probably couldn't be done to scale even if they wanted too. Plus might the visitors in 2% land either be lying about how they got there to the departed or not believed by anyone even if they were telling the truth? Most people probably had no desire to risk the machine again if they found who they were looking for. Nora is the only one who didn't have a reason to stay in 2% world.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:51
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Wow, curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough! While hammering out what I thought was a good post I can see I am late to the party.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:53
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When Nora meets the scientist he asks her why she would possibly want to go back after managing to get there. Make of that what you will.
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Jun 6, 2017 18:13
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Finally caught the last ep and need to roll things around in my mind and read the rest of the takes here and elsewhere, but kinda wished they had ended 15 mins earlier in the wedding, because that gave me the greatest upswell of emotion, and they had tried to start their relationship over with a very obvious lie at its center.
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Jun 6, 2017 18:15
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Escobarbarian posted:When Nora meets the scientist he asks her why she would possibly want to go back after managing to get there. Make of that what you will.
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Jun 6, 2017 18:19
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Niwrad posted:My only gripe is Laurie still being alive. The suicide was kind of a perfect tragic farewell for her. Now just comes across as a big fake-out. Disagree, I think it's a nice cap for a character that has struggled throughout the show, but always managed a way to defeat her demons by helping others. The bits we got at the last ep with her might be some of my fav parts, which include the only wedding speech unhackneyed enough to make me tear up.
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Jun 6, 2017 18:20
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Has anyone anywhere pointed out the similarity between this and the end of Life of Pi?
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Jun 6, 2017 19:14
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SLOSifl posted:This mirrors Kevin's journey perfectly. Her answer was Kevin, and his answer was Nora. Yeah this is great, and as someone earlier touched on, it's another great little point that for a relationship that has been so dysfunctional til now, the vehicle for them coming back together and being happy is them lying to each other to try and get past what has happened. I am mulling on how the show capped Nora's personal struggle though. By the end, has she moved past the need to feel like a victim? Did the "machine" resolve this for her? Or is her isolation another form of being separate or distinct and drawing the pity of nuns or what have you. Maybe I missed a resolving note on this. Canadian Surf Club fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 19:32
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Rocco posted:I think that last episode was a great episode, and I think it ending with her story was really cool and probably the best way to end the show. However, parts of me still feel weirdly unsatisfied. I loved Kevin's poo poo not being explained. It's a microcosm (well a medium-cosm considering how central he is) of the larger show's thesis: crazy poo poo happens, then you deal. I love the idea of Kevin being a literal Jesus (or more likely Lazerus), then deciding to say gently caress to preaching and converting, and choosing to have a happy life with the people he loves instead. He fully committed to it too, so you can't even say that he was running away from anything considering how much he's sacrificied to be with Nora. EDIT: Reminds of Job: A Comedy of Justice, the best thing Heinlein ever wrote.
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Jun 6, 2017 19:36
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Show good. I love that bearded Justin Theroux playing a more subdued Kevin accidentally mastered the Louis CK "ah, gently caress, this is uncomfortable and I have no agency" look. Seriously, he was basically a hot Louie all season. I can't be the only person who kept seeing this. Also the PhD fancy-pants poster is really embarrassing.
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Jun 6, 2017 19:39
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androo posted:Also the PhD fancy-pants poster is really embarrassing. This is 75% of the post grad landscape, don't worry about it.
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Jun 6, 2017 19:46
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btw, answering my own question above, Sean Collins has a great write-up on the episode and is well worth the read:quote:Tellingly, Nora starts breaking down only when she gets to the most recent development: Kevin’s return to her life forces her to face the fear that kept her away from him all this time, the fear that he wouldn’t believe her. Here’s where “show, don’t tell” comes into play again. As we’ve seen, Nora has long since come to terms with her astonishing journey to another world and back again, in search of a lost family she now chooses to leave behind after years of grief over having that decision taken out of her hands. That’s not really what this conversation is about, for her. It’s about whether she can ever get close to anyone again, or whether her peerless pain has rendered her separate from all of humanity basically forever. To find out, she has to face her fear of rejection by the human she once cared about most. She has to find out if Kevin Garvey believes her. quote:Here, we’re put in the same position as Kevin, whose own alternate-reality experiences the show has depicted in lovingly bizarre detail, enhancing the contrast with the finale’s approach to Nora’s. We’re presented with the same information and asked to make the same decision. That, not the trip from world to world, is what The Leftovers wanted to show: a desperate person asking to be believed, and another desperate person believing. http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/the-leftovers-series-finale-recap-the-book-of-nora.html
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Jun 6, 2017 19:51
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Canadian Surf Club posted:btw, answering my own question above, Sean Collins has a great write-up on the episode and is well worth the read: 
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Jun 6, 2017 19:56
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Has anyone figured out how much older everyone really is? Kevin looks maybe 15 years older at most, but Nora looks another 15-20. And Kevin says his father is now 91...
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Jun 6, 2017 20:00
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androo posted:Has anyone figured out how much older everyone really is? Kevin looks maybe 15 years older at most, but Nora looks another 15-20. And Kevin says his father is now 91... I think I saw only 10 years somewhere.
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Jun 6, 2017 20:05
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Dumping my thoughts so I can come back to them if this makes my top 10 tv shows at the end of the year. I watched the pilot when it aired and didn't like it. After seeing seasons 2 and 3 praised constantly on couch chat I thought about watching but had cancelled hbo after Westworld. Finally my cousin came through and asked if I was caught up for the finale so I binge watched the whole series for a week and a half catching up just in time to watch the finale live. The show definitely felt like Lost (flashbacks) to me, especially in seasons 2 and 3. Season 2's premiere felt like a Lost premiere with the prehistoric intro and the focus on a new cast of people tying in our gang at the end. The two hotel episodes didn't quite fit, to me. I enjoyed the first one, not so much the second one. But they both didn't seem to fit in the show to me, a little too out there. The intense and amazing well scenes saved the first one. The first season's GR plot was interesting and shocking when I saw where they were going with it. The second season, Meg's plan, was meh. Nothing big happened until the drone strike in season 3. That was my fault though, i went on wikipedia to check on an actor early on and got spoiled in the cast list that the missing daughter was in the GR with Meg and that Meg dies to a bomb at some point. So the Evie bombshell fell flat for me despite being like when the girl comes out of the barn in early Walking Dead. I was hoping Meg had more of a master plan like with the fake missing loved one mannequins. Favorite scene in Lost was Mr. Eko's confrontation with his "brother". Favorite scene in Leftovers was Kevin's family driving into Jarden in 2.2 and seeing all the craziness, while that somewhat ominous Ruelle song played. The finale was great. Part of me wants to hate it because not much happens. But it flowed really well, I liked all the scenes, and in the end I was happy with it. I always saw Nora and Kevin as the center of the show, with Matt and Patti as the only side characters playing at the same level as them. Laurie and Wayne below that, then everyone else. After hating the final seasons of Lost, BSG and Babylon 5, I was happy with this one. It answered just enough and just vaguely enough that I was fine with it. Final comment is they say "...What?" way too much. In response to questions they weren't expecting, in response to questions they didn't hear, in response to completely hosed up things happening. It should be a drinking game to take a shot every time someone replies with that. If I was smarter I'd try to figure out if that was one of the themes and if it meant something. I assume it's not bad writing. But its one of those things that happens a lot in real life and almost never in scripted fiction, so it feels uncanny valley or something. I dunno. Rupert Buttermilk posted:Nora: So I looked up the doctor, and that doctor's name... was Rick Sanchez. Fixed that for you.
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Jun 6, 2017 20:11
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androo posted:Has anyone figured out how much older everyone really is? Kevin looks maybe 15 years older at most, but Nora looks another 15-20. And Kevin says his father is now 91... Well, Scott Glenn is 76 at the time of filming, so 15 years it seems like.
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Jun 6, 2017 20:20
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Well Nora has spent all her time in potentially multiple post-apocalyptic hellscapes [The other world, and the boonies of Australia], and Kevin has died like 5 times had had a massive heart attack. It'd age them a bit.
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Jun 6, 2017 20:57
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In another universe, 98% of goons hated this show and did nothing but complain about the ambiguity-for-ambiguity's sake, the repetitious music, the dropped plot lines and characters, the obvious themes, the symbolism that smacked you in the face, and the show's incessant plea to "let the mystery be" because the writers couldn't figure out the mystery themselves. The thread became legendary, surpassing even Sons of Anarchy for the scope and virulence of the hatewatching. But 2% of goons really liked it, and they were able to move on from the detractors and live happily without worrying about the other 98%. At least, that's the story I'm telling myself.
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Jun 6, 2017 21:40
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Nothus Infelix posted:In another universe, 98% of goons hated this show and did nothing but complain about the ambiguity-for-ambiguity's sake, the repetitious music, the dropped plot lines and characters, the obvious themes, the symbolism that smacked you in the face, and the show's incessant plea to "let the mystery be" because the writers couldn't figure out the mystery themselves. The thread became legendary, surpassing even Sons of Anarchy for the scope and virulence of the hatewatching. But 2% of goons really liked it, and they were able to move on from the detractors and live happily without worrying about the other 98%. wat
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Jun 6, 2017 21:45
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Don't waste your breath.
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Jun 6, 2017 22:43
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Nothus Infelix posted:In another universe, 98% of goons hated this show and did nothing but complain about the ambiguity-for-ambiguity's sake, the repetitious music, the dropped plot lines and characters, the obvious themes, the symbolism that smacked you in the face, and the show's incessant plea to "let the mystery be" because the writers couldn't figure out the mystery themselves. The thread became legendary, surpassing even Sons of Anarchy for the scope and virulence of the hatewatching. But 2% of goons really liked it, and they were able to move on from the detractors and live happily without worrying about the other 98%. Do u even have a postgraduate degree in literature??
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Jun 6, 2017 22:57
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Nothus Infelix posted:In another universe, 98% of goons hated this show and did nothing but complain about the ambiguity-for-ambiguity's sake, the repetitious music, the dropped plot lines and characters, the obvious themes, the symbolism that smacked you in the face, and the show's incessant plea to "let the mystery be" because the writers couldn't figure out the mystery themselves. The thread became legendary, surpassing even Sons of Anarchy for the scope and virulence of the hatewatching. But 2% of goons really liked it, and they were able to move on from the detractors and live happily without worrying about the other 98%. Same. The music was so absolutely atrocious and undercut half the drama of the series.
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Jun 6, 2017 23:02
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theflyingexecutive posted:Same. The music was so absolutely atrocious and undercut half the drama of the series. True, of course. What did you make of the music in the finale? It was different because now it actually followed the plot, but it was so on the nose that it just made me cringe every time a song came on.
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Jun 6, 2017 23:28
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Nothus Infelix posted:In another universe, 98% of goons hated this show and did nothing but complain about the ambiguity-for-ambiguity's sake, the repetitious music, the dropped plot lines and characters, the obvious themes, the symbolism that smacked you in the face, and the show's incessant plea to "let the mystery be" because the writers couldn't figure out the mystery themselves. The thread became legendary, surpassing even Sons of Anarchy for the scope and virulence of the hatewatching. But 2% of goons really liked it, and they were able to move on from the detractors and live happily without worrying about the other 98%. A good post.
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