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NoDamage posted:If someone refuses to vaccinate their child because "vaccines cause autism", and the child subsequently dies, they should absolutely bear the blame for their poor critical thinking and decision making skills that led to the inevitable outcome. Same for voting Trump. They should have seen it coming. Maybe, but the left is supposed to be the side of empathy and standing up for the poor and exploited. When we say, "They deserve what they get, even if it's a slow, painful death that bankrupts their family," that's not being empathetic. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize that there are people who we will never convince to join us; of course there are. But when fewer Americans trust the Democrats than Trump, that is a bad place for us to be. E: be like the dog. Be empathetic. 
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Pokemaster #421 posted:It breaks my heart to see people give in to that kind of hatred. I don't actively wish death on anyone, but what do you do with people that not only refuse to examine issues and operate with any empathy, but actually celebrate their ignorance and wear it as a badge of honor. I mean that seriously, I have no idea how to approach people like that. Try and limit the damage they do clearly, but the only way I can think of to do that is to get down and dirty and try to marginalize their vote as much as humanely possible. AND TO BE CLEAR I'm saying that civil war is looking more and more likely by the day. Trump is isolating the US from the rest of the world politically now, but economic isolation will follow. I expect at some point we'll face sanctions because of our actions (and inaction) on climate change. And of course there is climate change itself. Our neighbors to the north and especially to the south hate our loving guts. China will take over leadership of Asia-Pacific, and Africa, and as for Europe and the Middle East I assume that will be dominated by European powers or by Russia. America has no friends left, and eventually that fucks you. Hard. Once that happens, people won't have enough left to lose that they prefer peace. There's going to be a lot more civilian casualties in this coming civil war than the last one as well. And our government will not survive intact. Hopefully the nukes stay on the ground and in the sea.
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Jun 8, 2017 06:57
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The vast majority of Canadians do not hate the USA and our government still sees you as a very important ally and partner. We might shift to being a little less reliant on you for trade and defence but its going to take more than reigniting the softwood lumber argument to make us hate you like, say, France or Mexico currently do. 
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Jun 8, 2017 07:08
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NoDamage posted:If someone refuses to vaccinate their child because "vaccines cause autism", and the child subsequently dies, they should absolutely bear the blame for their poor critical thinking and decision making skills that led to the inevitable outcome. Same for voting Trump. They should have seen it coming. There's no such thing as a purely Republican county or state, and there's no population of Republicans that are 100% irredeemable scum, no matter how satisfying it is to believe that. Start actively trying to gently caress these people over and you're going to gently caress over plenty of people who want the exact same things you do. If you can't admit that helping everyone is just the right thing to do, then at least realize that it's not actually practical to gently caress over the "wrong" people while helping the "right" ones. US politics don't break down as cleanly across geographic lines as electoral college maps may make it seem.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:08
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Majorian posted:Maybe, but the left is supposed to be the side of empathy and standing up for the poor and exploited. When we say, "They deserve what they get, even if it's a slow, painful death that bankrupts their family," that's not being empathetic. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize that there are people who we will never convince to join us; of course there are. But when fewer Americans trust the Democrats than Trump, that is a bad place for us to be. I'll vote in Democratic primaries for the leftist, but I don't expect I'll vote for Democrats in the general unless it's for the same leftist. There just isn't any point helping the Centrists cement their power over the party.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:08
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Burt Buckle posted:I'm ready to be completely underwhelmed by Comey tomorrow. That guy seems about as hyperbolic as a sloth. Dude's already given us a lot to work with in his opening statement. Obviously we should temper our expectations for tomorrow's testimony, but expect things to at least move forward a bit. We learned quite a bit from the sitting intelligence chiefs' non-answers; we will learn more from Comey, mark my words.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:08
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Burt Buckle posted:I'm ready to be completely underwhelmed by Comey tomorrow. That guy seems about as hyperbolic as a sloth. Didn't he kinda already with the pre-testimony document? That thing is a loving haymaker. e:f;b
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Jun 8, 2017 07:11
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empty whippet box posted:Hattiesburg, 45 minutes south, just elected an "independent" named Toby barker over democrat Johnny Dupree. He's supposedly a progressive. Oh man, I used to live in Hattiesburg, I've been getting mailers for Barker in spite of no longer living there. It won't surprise you that Toby Barker was a Republican until he ran for Hattiesburg mayor as an Independent. I'm also not surprised he ran as an Independent, as the last big Republican challenger was Dave Ware in 2013 who lost the ridiculous 2013 race for mayor against Dupree and then lost the re-do of the race that came out of that poo poo. In 2013 Dupree had already suffered a decade of smear campaigns against him for being I'm sure after over 15 years of Hattiesburg flourishing under Dupree only good things are around the corner with a crypto-Republican at the helm! It honestly is heartening the tea partiers didn't succeed, I guess. Unlike on the national stage.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:14
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Kilroy posted:I expect at some point we'll face sanctions because of our actions (and inaction) on climate change. Nah, most of the states that have a large impact on that sort of thing have already pledged to take steps. It's literally just Trump that is against it, not America. And a ton of states have already made that clear. quote:China will take over leadership of Asia-Pacific Everyone loving hates China, it's basically only a question if someone hates China or Japan more in that region. And the answer is usually China. quote:Russia Can't even manage Russia, hence this bullshit trolling by Putin. Which by the way the entirety of Russia isn't happy with, because they aren't stupid, and they know Trump isn't some forever deal. Eventually he'll be gone and the worm will turn, and then actual competent politicians will be at the helm again. And it's not like they'll magically have forgotten what Russia did.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:14
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Majorian posted:Maybe, but the left is supposed to be the side of empathy and standing up for the poor and exploited. When we say, "They deserve what they get, even if it's a slow, painful death that bankrupts their family," that's not being empathetic. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize that there are people who we will never convince to join us; of course there are. But when fewer Americans trust the Democrats than Trump, that is a bad place for us to be.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:15
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Kilroy posted:At some point you have to start murdering them in large numbers. This is not the place to post your YA novel outlines
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Jun 8, 2017 07:16
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Ignore the hokey coal town interview articles, they're not representative. The people who were the core of the Trump support base weren't the impoverished white racists and sexists, it was suburban semi-wealthy racists and sexists. When articles talk about "economic anxiety" as a predictor of voting behavior in Trump supporters, the measures used were not measures of how poor voters were, or of how at-risk they were. They were measures of how much voters were worried that someone else would get their money. These concerns had no bearing on their actual income or status. The poorer people were, the more likely they were to vote Democratic. The "working class" Trump supporters aren't the main group of people who get hurt or die in the time ahead. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 07:18
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Mulva posted:Nah, most of the states that have a large impact on that sort of thing have already pledged to take steps. It's literally just Trump that is against it, not America. And a ton of states have already made that clear. e: WeAreTheRomans posted:This is not the place to post your YA novel outlines 
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Jun 8, 2017 07:19
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Burt Buckle posted:I'm ready to be completely underwhelmed by Comey tomorrow. That guy seems about as hyperbolic as a sloth. I've said it multiple times in this thread but Comey is if nothing else very good at playing to a crowd; whatever he does tomorrow, it'll be a fun watch.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:22
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The biggest thing to come of the hearing will be Trump's tweets, one way or another.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:24
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Burt Buckle posted:I'm ready to be completely underwhelmed by Comey tomorrow. That guy seems about as hyperbolic as a sloth. *the final 5 minutes of Comey's testimony* Senator Old gently caress: Well, Mr. Comey, do you have anything else to add before we adjourn? Comey: Well, I have just one thing for my buddy Burt Buckle and the Guys and Gals over in Nite Crew... *slams a VHS tape onto the table labelled "PЇSS TДPԐ"*
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Jun 8, 2017 07:26
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NoDamage posted:I agree that literally wishing death upon them is too extreme, but a lot of these people won't realize the consequences of their actions until it directly affects them. If Trump and the Republicans working to gently caress over their health care is the wake up call they need, then I'm not going to feel too bad about that. If that "wake up call" just meant a basic inconvenience for them or whatever, sure. But for a lot of them, it's going to mean bankruptcy, suffering, and death. We don't vote for good policy just because it benefits us, or because it benefits those who are deserving. We support good health care policy because we believe in helping all Americans, because good health care is a human right.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:27
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Bottom Liner posted:The biggest thing to come of the hearing will be Trump's tweets, one way or another. so not worth watching live at all? asking cause im tryna plan my day here :-\
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Jun 8, 2017 07:27
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What time is the Comey/Trump Comedy Hour due to start?
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Jun 8, 2017 07:28
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Paradoxish posted:Start actively trying to gently caress these people over... Of course we should support policies that benefit everyone, I'm just saying these people should bear the blame when the politicians they put in power inevitably gently caress them over. Claiming they got "conned" or "duped" by Trump absolves them of nothing (especially since they probably voted R all the way down-ticket as well)
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Jun 8, 2017 07:28
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Majorian posted:Maybe, but the left is supposed to be the side of empathy and standing up for the poor and exploited. When we say, "They deserve what they get, even if it's a slow, painful death that bankrupts their family," that's not being empathetic. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize that there are people who we will never convince to join us; of course there are. But when fewer Americans trust the Democrats than Trump, that is a bad place for us to be. Maybe you should stop seeing yourself as part of "The Left", or condescendingly assuming that people who vote Democrat should promote every single value "The Left" purportedly represents.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:30
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Majorian posted:Maybe, but the left is supposed to be the side of empathy and standing up for the poor and exploited. When we say, "They deserve what they get, even if it's a slow, painful death that bankrupts their family," that's not being empathetic. No they absolutely deserve that, of course they do. Because I am a leftist, it is my firm belief that they should not get what they deserve, and if it were up to me they wouldn't be getting what they deserve. But it's not up to me, because of the electoral college it's up to them and this is what they want. They were not duped, even if they really thought Republicans would give them free health care that didn't actually factor into their decision at all, because now they recognize that Republicans are at this moment trying their very best to kill them, and they are still planning to re-elect them because Republicans will kill the people they hate and despise along with them, and that is what is most important to them. This is exactly what they want. Would they prefer a system that magically gave free health care to them and only them and killed everyone else? Of course. But failing that they would rather go bankrupt and die in a gutter themselves rather than see anyone else have anything. Do I hope that their plan fails, that the Republican congress chickens out, and enough of us come out in 2018 and 2020 to stop them from getting what they deserve? Of course I do. But if they succeed they definitely deserve to get what they achieved.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:30
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Discendo Vox posted:Ignore the hokey coal town interview articles, they're not representative. Last election was decided by less than 100,000 voters. Whether or not those articles are representative of all or most Trump supporters isn't really the issue. Condemn Trump's core supporters all you like; God knows I do. But acting like the people described in that article shouldn't be taken into account is both morally gross, and also politically just a really terrible idea.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:31
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VitalSigns posted:Because I am a leftist, it is my firm belief that they should not get what they deserve, and if it were up to me they wouldn't be getting what they deserve. But it's not up to me, because of the electoral college it's up to them and this is what they want. They were not duped, even if they really thought Republicans would give them free health care that didn't actually factor into their decision at all, because now they recognize that Republicans are at this moment trying their very best to kill them, and they are still planning to re-elect them because Republicans will kill the people they hate and despise along with them, and that is what is most important to them. This is exactly what they want. What you are describing is health care as a privilege, a reward for voting the right way - not as a basic human right. IMO, if you are a human being, you deserve adequate health care. We may not be able to make that a reality for everyone in the world, but it's certainly something we should be able to accomplish in this country, and IMO, it's what the left needs to push for, with a clear and unified voice. e: There are also plenty of people who use their right to vote extremely poorly. They do a lot of damage with their lovely votes. I wish they wouldn't. But I'm not about to argue that they should be stripped of their right to vote. The same goes for health care. Majorian fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 07:34
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Kilroy posted:That's true, but they're limited in what they can do when they negotiate with foreign powers and I think they're already pushing the envelope of what the Constitution allows. They don't have to negotiate poo poo, they just have to do something about the issue. It doesn't have to be a completely official and totally 1 to 1 following of Paris, it can literally just be "Yeah the federal government is totally opposed to us following this international pledge, but apropos of nothing here are some completely unrelated guidelines we've set for corporations in our state". And you know what? The rest of the world will understand, because they are not run by total morons. quote:And they certainly couldn't take action against other states that don't get their poo poo together - that would get smacked down immediately - but that's what it will take for this to have any real teeth. Not really, not all states are equally populated or productive. California alone pledging to do, well, anything is already more than 1/10th of the population. And it's production is equally oversized. Add the rest of the states from the pledge and you have a sizable amount of the US population and production ability. Perfect? No, but incredibly meaningful. The reason the electoral college exists is so that poors in the middle of Sheepfuck, Nowheresville can pretend they are equal citizens. The fact is they aren't, and they never will be. Even if they have an increased influence on who the President is or how many people go to Congress. Money still talks, and pretty much everyone would rather work in California than Missouri. And that gives California a lot of power in some areas that transcends government. Same for a few other states, like how so much of the production of school books is done in Texas and thus conservatives have some disproportionate say in how a lot of things get taught. Government isn't the be all and end all of governance.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:35
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Majorian posted:Last election was decided by less than 100,000 voters. Whether or not those articles are representative of all or most Trump supporters isn't really the issue. Condemn Trump's core supporters all you like; God knows I do. But acting like the people described in that article shouldn't be taken into account is both morally gross, and also politically just a really terrible idea. I'm more responding to the people hoping for their deaths. My point is that there's a really small number of poor, at-risk Trump supporters than middle-class ones, and that there's a larger demographic bloc of wealthier bigoted undereducated people who are more responsible for Trump (and more worth targeting persuasively, and worth despising). The stereotype of the Trump victory as primarily due to poor people who will be killed by his policies is inaccurate. The stereotype of the blue-collar Trump voter is inaccurate. The quintessential, stereotypical Trump voter wears a polo shirt, not coveralls. They're privileged. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 07:37
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm more responding to the people hoping for their deaths. My point is that there's a really small number of those people, they're less deserving of hate, and that there's a larger demographic bloc of wealthier bigoted undereducated people who are more responsible for Trump (and more worth targeting). The stereotype of the Trump victory as primarily due to poor people who will be killed by his policies is inaccurate. Fair enough. I just think we need to keep in mind that a lot of those genuinely poor, desperate people weren't traditionally Republican voters, yet they helped swing the election for Trump. The Dems aren't in a position to write very many demographics off at this point. Victory is won along the margins in our horribly stupid, antiquated electoral system.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:40
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Those of you with a better understanding of procedure than me: Hypothetically, what would happen if the GOP decided to get this whole thing over with, house republicans vote to impeach, impeachment passes the house by simple majority, senate quickly wraps up investigation and votes to acquit, all shortly before the '18 midterms and thus before dems can do anything about it. Is there a double jeopardy rule in government? Could the dems start the whole thing over if they take over house & senate?
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Jun 8, 2017 07:40
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Majorian posted:What you are describing is health care as a privilege, a reward for voting the right way - not as a basic human right. IMO, if you are a human being, you deserve adequate health care. I'm fine with giving people good things they don't deserve because it makes a better society, and that's what I will do if I win. But I didn't win, they did, so they're getting exactly what they want and deserve. I'm not going to infantalize them and claim that when they say "well my representative just voted to kill me and that's okay because he will kill a lot more people and that's worth it" that they don't actually believe this and they're just making a mistake.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:42
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Majorian posted:If that "wake up call" just meant a basic inconvenience for them or whatever, sure. But for a lot of them, it's going to mean bankruptcy, suffering, and death. We don't vote for good policy just because it benefits us, or because it benefits those who are deserving. We support good health care policy because we believe in helping all Americans, because good health care is a human right. In fact, I will say that I'm mainly a leftist out of self-interest. I want to help people of course but I'm probably just as tribal as anyone else. Like many Republicans I want a strong society where I feel safe - I just realize the path to that doesn't mean cutting people loose and leaving them to rot. And it doesn't involve a decades-long master plan to thoroughly gently caress up the Middle East, for that matter (nearly century long by now in fact). It means making sure people are at least looked after to some basic minimum, and that the means to real economic empowerment - and not LOL BOOTSTRAPS bullshit either - lay within reach if ever they want to have a crack at it. And so on. But if they don't want any of that poo poo, and if they spit in my face for trying to make it happen, and sneer that I'm just some liberal bleeding-heart <insert-bigoted-epithet-here>, then there does come a point where I'm apt to say "gently caress it, guillotines and chaos it is, then". I don't see anything wrong with that. And yeah, I know that the people who get hurt the hardest by this poo poo aren't always the people who support it the most. That's the only reason I didn't throw up my hands long ago. But there's a limit, obviously.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:44
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Evilreaver posted:What time is the Comey/Trump Comedy Hour due to start? 10am US Eastern time.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:47
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botany posted:Those of you with a better understanding of procedure than me: Hypothetically, what would happen if the GOP decided to get this whole thing over with, house republicans vote to impeach, impeachment passes the house by simple majority, senate quickly wraps up investigation and votes to acquit, all shortly before the '18 midterms and thus before dems can do anything about it. Is there a double jeopardy rule in government? Could the dems start the whole thing over if they take over house & senate?
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Jun 8, 2017 07:48
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botany posted:Those of you with a better understanding of procedure than me: Hypothetically, what would happen if the GOP decided to get this whole thing over with, house republicans vote to impeach, impeachment passes the house by simple majority, senate quickly wraps up investigation and votes to acquit, all shortly before the '18 midterms and thus before dems can do anything about it. Is there a double jeopardy rule in government? Could the dems start the whole thing over if they take over house & senate? The Supreme Court has ruled that in general it'd stay out of that poo poo, but like any other legal proceeding it reserves the right to step in if it feels the Senate was corrupt.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:49
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botany posted:Those of you with a better understanding of procedure than me: Hypothetically, what would happen if the GOP decided to get this whole thing over with, house republicans vote to impeach, impeachment passes the house by simple majority, senate quickly wraps up investigation and votes to acquit, all shortly before the '18 midterms and thus before dems can do anything about it. Is there a double jeopardy rule in government? Could the dems start the whole thing over if they take over house & senate? Here's what Article 1, Section 3, Clause 7 says: "Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law." According to Cornell's law school: quote:An impeachment and removal does not activate the double jeopardy clause of the Fifth Amendment. The ex-officer may face criminal indictments and trials for the same conduct that led to their impeachment and removal from office. So if my reading is correct, the Dems theoretically could vote to impeach again if they took over the House. The bigger question, unfortunately, is whether or not there would be enough political will to do it, if it came to that. VitalSigns posted:I'm fine with giving people good things they don't deserve because it makes a better society, and that's what I will do if I win. When you're getting a lot of your information from weird, insular circles (social media, email, or just your dumbass friends and family members), and you don't have the time, energy, or attention to dig deeper, the fact that their representative just voted to take away their health care might not quite register.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:51
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botany posted:Those of you with a better understanding of procedure than me: Hypothetically, what would happen if the GOP decided to get this whole thing over with, house republicans vote to impeach, impeachment passes the house by simple majority, senate quickly wraps up investigation and votes to acquit, all shortly before the '18 midterms and thus before dems can do anything about it. Is there a double jeopardy rule in government? Could the dems start the whole thing over if they take over house & senate? there were like...7 benghazi investigations? septuple jeopardy. Anyway the house and senate investigations dont really...acquit, or anything. They can't charge people. They can impeach, or not, and they can make reports and stand in front of cameras. But the senate can't put you in prison. heres a link https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/19/15658246/trump-russia-fbi-investigation in unrelated news, these three little girls get it https://twitter.com/MattGlassman312/status/872569553972318208
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Jun 8, 2017 07:51
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Majorian posted:Fair enough. I just think we need to keep in mind that a lot of those genuinely poor, desperate people weren't traditionally Republican voters, yet they helped swing the election for Trump. The Dems aren't in a position to write very many demographics off at this point. Victory is won along the margins in our horribly stupid, antiquated electoral system. I don't know that the desperately poor people who voted for Trump weren't long-term Republican voters. If you're describing the people in the vox article you linked, there's nothing indicating the people being interviewed are swing voters. They're also not actually in the bottom half of the income distribution, they're from an area that overwhelmingly votes Republican every year, and from interview responses, their rationale is embedded in actually impoverished people getting better healthcare subsidies than they do. It's true, one of the women interviewed for the article refers to herself as "the working poor". She isn't, though-not even close. While these people are still at risk of being seriously harmed or dying from the AHCA, they're still way more secure than the people who absolutely will die as a result of its passage. Again, I take no pleasure in these folks dying, but I don't see them as a particularly sympathetic demographic compared with the actually homeless family down the street. They're also not particularly amenable to persuasion. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 07:53
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Majorian posted:Maybe, but the left is supposed to be the side of empathy and standing up for the poor and exploited. When we say, "They deserve what they get, even if it's a slow, painful death that bankrupts their family," that's not being empathetic. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize that there are people who we will never convince to join us; of course there are. But when fewer Americans trust the Democrats than Trump, that is a bad place for us to be. Nah. Empathy for everyone regardless of their actions is idiotic. Especially when said actions have potentially fatal consequences for tens of millions of people. If someone voted for Trump because they genuinely thought he would be able to help them find a job, cut their taxes, give them better healthcare and improve their overall standing in life, okay, sure, I'm empathetic to that. They got conned, but that doesn't make them bad people. But all those people who cheer on ICE agents as they rip people from their families, support a travel ban from Muslim countries, applaud their President as he taunts and lashes out at London's mayor for being weak against terrorism, etc.? Yeah, gently caress those evil motherfuckers. It is my genuine, deeply-felt hope that they all suffer as much as possible on their way to hell.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:54
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Evilreaver posted:What time is the Comey/Trump Comedy Hour due to start? And where can we watch it? (In Australia)
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Jun 8, 2017 07:55
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Kilroy posted:I don't see the problem with having a limit to how much empathy you're going to have. We're not Jesus. enraged_camel posted:Nah. Empathy for everyone regardless of their actions is idiotic. I mean, I agree - no one's saying we need to be empathetic to everyone. But if we're going to win and enact the policies that we want, we're going to have to at least try to look like we're empathetic to the voters who we need. That's how Bill Clinton won, and that's how Barack Obama won. quote:But all those people who cheer on ICE agents as they rip people from their families, support a travel ban from Muslim countries, applaud their President as he taunts and lashes out at London's mayor for being weak against terrorism, etc.? We're basically in the same boat here. Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 07:55
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Majorian posted:When you're getting a lot of your information from weird, insular circles (social media, email, or just your dumbass friends and family members), and you don't have the time, energy, or attention to dig deeper, the fact that their representative just voted to take away their health care might not quite register. Sure fine. But we're discussing an article in which the people being interviewed knew exactly what was in the bill and could describe how it would murder them personally for profit, and still plan to reelect the people who voted for it to make sure other people don't get free stuff.
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Jun 8, 2017 07:59
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