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Post about more cave divers those guys rule too
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Jun 8, 2017 17:23
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Jimmy Hats posted:Post about more cave divers those guys rule too Only if they are dead.
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Jun 8, 2017 18:17
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Looks like the Diving into Unknown documentary from last year is in youtube with subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpVKqdQHyVo It's pretty interesting watch about the accident team of Finnish divers had when diving into Steinugleflaget cave system in Norway in 2014, resulting in death of two divers from the group. Norwegian authorities decided it was too dangerous to attempt to bring the bodies back, so the remaining divers from the group organized a clandestine "rescue" operation to bring the bodies back. BBC story from last fall http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36097300 
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Jun 8, 2017 18:50
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Cave diving gets a big ol fuckin NOPE from me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg
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Jun 8, 2017 20:52
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Maluco Marinero posted:Yes, clearly my post history casts me as someone who idolises this guy. 
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Jun 8, 2017 21:11
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Yeah, between the bodies, the poop, the garbage, and the lineups, Everest looks like a terrible objective even without the danger.  Of course there are other mountains across the planet that get those lineups too, and I'm sure they're also really polluted, but not like Everest. I go up mountains to get away from all that.     I'm really glad that my mountains rarely get super busy except for a couple of exceptions. I've been lucky to scramble up peaks and back down and never encounter anyone else but the one or two people I went with.
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Jun 8, 2017 22:05
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Picnic Princess posted:Yeah, between the bodies, the poop, the garbage, and the lineups, Everest looks like a terrible objective even without the danger. Out of curiosity, which mountains are those? So I can put them on my "places I'd rather not" list. Those pictures look like the exact opposite of what I want to see while up in the mountains.
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Jun 8, 2017 22:17
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Last one looks like Half Dome in Yosemite.
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Jun 8, 2017 22:42
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Lunsku posted:Looks like the Diving into Unknown documentary from last year is in youtube with subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpVKqdQHyVo Thank you for giving me something interesting to watch while working sick today god caves are fuckin scary but the ones that aren't underwater are where bats live and bats are really cute... 
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Jun 8, 2017 23:04
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Lunsku posted:Looks like the Diving into Unknown documentary from last year is in youtube with subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpVKqdQHyVo This American Life had part of an episode on David Shaw, who died while trying to recover a body. Oddly enough, while he didn't survive, he did accomplish his goal.
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Jun 9, 2017 00:14
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lol
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Jun 9, 2017 00:23
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:Last one looks like Half Dome in Yosemite. It is but it doesn't look like that anymore since they put in a permit system
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Jun 9, 2017 00:23
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Levitate posted:It is but it doesn't look like that anymore since they put in a permit system That's good. If I saw that line, I'd just turn back. Nature is something you want to be able to stand around and enjoy, not move through in an assembly line.
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Jun 9, 2017 00:47
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Zo posted:i know you're kinda slow but the point is that you're getting really mad over people doing cool stuff while hundreds of millions of people are talking far bigger risks by not exercising I'm not mad. "u mad?", seriously? and personal achievements of strength endurance etc. aren't the same as, say, the achievements of astronauts or scientists or even businessmen, who are arguably accomplishing something that is valuable to other people. Zo posted:lol on a purely statistical life expectancy basis, you're taking a far bigger risk than them by being a sedentary fatass Not really, no. I'm not a "sedentary fatass" either, but if I were, that'd still be irrelevant. We're discussing specifically those extremely dangerous activities that have extremely high death rates, not just any old exciting physical activity like general rock climbing (with ropes) or alpine climbing (reasonable climbs that may have technical challenges but aren't killing like 1% of everyone who participates annually). Maluco Marinero posted:Maaaaate, people take bigger risks in industry than these folks do. To work in offshore oil & gas you need to learn how to get out of a helicopter that's ditched in the sea. People have vaporised themselves by cracking bolts on the wrong pipeline. People have been horribly disfigured by improperly designed shielding/protection. No, actually, and this is the entire point. The most dangerous jobs in the US are in logging and fishing, and these jobs carry an accidental death rate of around 120 to 130 per 100,000 workers (and this is also presumably among people doing this job 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year). I found various sources for the last few years that varied in exact numbers, but most cited the bureau of labor statistics, so those are pretty solid numbers. And of course, we actually need wood and fish, a lot; and I'd argue those rates are also unacceptably high and could be lowered if those industries were better regulated, so I'm not even making an argument that 130 per 100,000 is an acceptable death rate. But 130/100,000 annually translates to an average risk of death for each worker of 0.13% per year, or approximately 0.00052% per day at work. It's harder to find the death rate for, say, free climbers per day of free-climbing, but I'm quite certain it's drastically higher, probably by a factor of at least 100 and maybe more like 1000 to 10,000. Destro posted:Humans also have an innate desire to accomplish things. Free soloing El Cap after climbing for 20 years is definitely praiseworthy it is an amazing feat that stands as a testament to what humans are really able to achieve. Yes, humans want to accomplish great things, and that's very very good. I disagree about what is praiseworthy. I believe that men like Honnold have tremendous talent and physical ability and dedication; but they could channel that talent and dedication into activities that are just as (or more) rewarding both personally and to others, and yet do not carry as extreme a danger as this particular one. We have a culture where we praise people for being really good at things, which is fine, but we should not praise people at being really good at near-suicidally-dangerous behavior. Even if that behavior is really, really impressively skilled. quote:If we never gave into our desire for adventure and curiosity we'd still be hitting things with sticks. Space travel is an extremely dangerous endeavor, there is no possible way to have zero risk, your argument suggests that space travel or anything with a high risk factor is not praiseworthy or an achievement. No, because space travel actually accomplishes very valuable things, it's not just a sport. Similarly, I've repeatedly emphasized that I'm not arguing that people should take no risks, that's absurd. I'm only arguing that risks should have commensurate rewards, and that we should not encourage people to take pointless risks by rewarding their basically pointless risky activity with praise and attention. Why is this so hard to understand? That there's a difference between doing a dangerous job, and doing a dangerous liesure-time activity? I just want to end by reminding you guys of how this particular derail always gets started: Maluco Marinero posted:Many people's relationship with physical risk is all sorts of hosed up these days. Many will go their whole life without having to train/practice to offset a physical risk, such that when people decide to pick up an activity that has physical risk involved, they don't appreciate the risks nor how it is necessary to offset risk through training and preparation. To paraphrase, and I'm trying to be fair: "people think these super-trained experts are taking insane and stupid risks, but they're not really because of all the training" is just wrong. No amount of training, not even decades of it, can reduce the fatal risk to a point where it's even in the same ballpark as, say, being a logger, fisherman, or offshore oil worker. Even the most finely-honed hyper-trained athletes and sportsmen in the world still make minor errors from time to time, it's unavoidable. And most importantly because no amount of training can prevent the rock you're holding from coming loose, and I'd argue you can't totally eliminate the risk of making some very small mistake that, under the conditions, turns out to be fatal. I find that tragic and regrettable and I think if praising and lauding and heaping attention on people like Steck is part of what ultimately gets them killed, that's kind of hosed up.
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Jun 9, 2017 01:25
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Leperflesh posted:The most dangerous jobs in the US are in logging and fishing, and these jobs carry an accidental death rate of around 120 to 130 per 100,000 workers (and this is also presumably among people doing this job 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year). Those are both highly seasonal jobs, with nowhere near 50 weeks/year of work. Crab fishing (the most deadly of the fishing jobs IIRC) is only for a couple months out of each year.. so the death rate/100k is a lot higher. Leperflesh posted:It's harder to find the death rate for, say, free climbers per day of free-climbing, but I'm quite certain it's drastically higher, probably by a factor of at least 100 and maybe more like 1000 to 10,000. Translation: I conveniently can't find the data that supports my argument so I'm just going to assume it's out there and agrees with me.
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Jun 9, 2017 01:59
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I'm not even sure what you want besides for us to not think that free soloing is cool as gently caress. The accomplishments of people like Ueli and Steck or race car drivers, boxers, football players or any support that can cause injury, death, or long term disability have inspired many people and that in and of itself is value added to people's lives. And people are going do what they find most interesting in life. There doesn't seem to be any way for you to look at it from another perspective. It's not a stupid risk if that is all or a big part of what you live for.
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Jun 9, 2017 05:03
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Leperflesh posted:I believe that men like Honnold have tremendous talent and physical ability and dedication; but they could channel that talent and dedication into activities that are just as (or more) rewarding both personally and to others, and yet do not carry as extreme a danger as this particular one.
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Jun 9, 2017 05:08
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i like nice words
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Anne Whateley posted:Just out of curiosity, what do you think he could/should be doing instead that uses his unique combination of skills but has near zero risk? Fly a wingsuit three feet away from a canyon wall.
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Jun 9, 2017 05:22
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Incesticide posted:Out of curiosity, which mountains are those? So I can put them on my "places I'd rather not" list. Those pictures look like the exact opposite of what I want to see while up in the mountains. Everest, Snowdon (Wales), Paterno (Italy), Fuji, Half Dome. Levitate posted:It is but it doesn't look like that anymore since they put in a permit system Well thank gently caress for that.
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Jun 9, 2017 07:00
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Anne Whateley posted:near zero risk? it's like I'm talking to a brick wall
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Jun 9, 2017 07:35
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Oh for gently caress's sake. Okay, what do you think he could/should be doing instead that uses his unique combination of skills but has extremely, dramatically lower risk?
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Jun 9, 2017 07:38
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I don't understand what everyone wants out of this derail either. Ok so you disagree on risk assessments, bfd. For better or for worse, people are always going to be fascinated by extreme risk takers.
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Jun 9, 2017 07:53
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Honnold does what he does because he wants to and he's good at it. loving leave it at that already.
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Jun 9, 2017 08:16
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Jun 9, 2017 10:06
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He saw a lot of good men die on that hill.
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Jun 9, 2017 13:24
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If only he had listened to leperfish and stayed inside to watch some anime in the safety of his home
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Jun 9, 2017 13:36
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Anne Whateley posted:Oh for gently caress's sake. Okay, what do you think he could/should be doing instead that uses his unique combination of skills but has extremely, dramatically lower risk? His natural abilities probably revolve around being very even-tempered, able to focus for long periods, high degrees of eye-hand and body coordination, and of course, physical fitness and strength. I don't know if having no fear of heights is a natural ability or a developed skill. If he can also pass academic classes, he could probably be an actual astronaut. Or an olympic athlete. Or maybe he could do underwater welding, or operate a crane doing skyscraper construction. He could be a stunt pilot, maybe? There's countless careers and endeavors that those abilities could apply to and which aren't nearly as dangerous and/or have some greater benefit to society. It's not even just doing rock climbing that I'm critical of. It's the freeclimbing. What's wrong with doing the exact same climb, but with a rope? What is the great achievement that you get from going "look ma, no hands" while you climb the exact same rock face? It's certainly impressive from a "holy poo poo dear god that man is insane" viewpoint.  Ruggan posted:I don't understand what everyone wants out of this derail either. Ok so you disagree on risk assessments, bfd. Understandably. I am too, to some degree. I guess I just hoped to make a point about how hard it is for people to assess or even recognize the difference between very high risk, and extreme risk. I feel pretty vindicated in that assessment when people say poo poo like "oh well I guess he should just sit on his rear end watching anime instead???" like that's the only alternative to free-climbing El Capitan. In the previous thread, I recall some everest-climbing mom's quote that basically showed she felt attempting to summit everest carried about the same risk as riding a bicycle on public roads. It's the reason why people buy lottery tickets; they just can't really gut-feel fathom what a 1 in 35 million chance is, compared to say a 1 in 1000 chance. Clearly that's just not something most posters in the thread care to discuss, though. I'm still gonna think people who freeclimb sheer cliff faces are doing something suicidally stupid that everyone who loves them should be trying to talk them out of, not praising them for.
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Jun 9, 2017 17:35
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Leperflesh posted:Clearly that's just not something most posters in the thread care to discuss, though. I'm still gonna think people who freeclimb sheer cliff faces are doing something suicidally stupid that everyone who loves them should be trying to talk them out of, not praising them for. Quick everyone write to him and tell him to stop free climbing dangerous things.
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Jun 9, 2017 20:06
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khysanth posted:Quick everyone write to him and tell him to stop free climbing dangerous things. Dear cool climb guy, Don't climb cool. Please, Arivia
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Jun 9, 2017 20:32
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Leperflesh posted:His natural abilities probably revolve around being very even-tempered, able to focus for long periods, high degrees of eye-hand and body coordination, and of course, physical fitness and strength. I don't know if having no fear of heights is a natural ability or a developed skill. If he can also pass academic classes, he could probably be an actual astronaut. Or an olympic athlete. Or maybe he could do underwater welding, or operate a crane doing skyscraper construction. He could be a stunt pilot, maybe? There's countless careers and endeavors that those abilities could apply to and which aren't nearly as dangerous and/or have some greater benefit to society.
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Jun 9, 2017 20:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTalnzcO0xk Alex Honnold to the entire world.
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Jun 9, 2017 20:43
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Anne Whateley posted:I think you have a very unusual idea of the way talents and skills transfer at these super high levels. Remember the world's greatest basketball player of all time couldn't even successfully play another sport that required identical skills with a slightly smaller ball. Not just that he wasn't the world's best at it too, he was literally incapable of doing it at a professional level. I remember seeing some large study about why professional MLB batters who hit 90 mph balls would just get destroyed by softball pitchers throwing balls at 70 MPH. Eventually you're relying on learned reflexes and instincts over actually seeing and reacting to the ball being thrown, so despite it being an objectively easier pitch, MLB batters could not hit them and would swing out every time.
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Jun 9, 2017 21:05
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I thought we were imagining a world in which Honnold decided to do something other than dedicating his life to climbing rocks?
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Jun 9, 2017 22:09
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Well poo poo now I gotta watch Blackhawk Down again. Ironically it involves someone becoming seriously injured and several other people dying trying to rescue him because he failed to descend properly on a rope.
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Jun 9, 2017 22:27
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High Lord Elbow posted:Well poo poo now I gotta watch Blackhawk Down again. Ironically it involves someone becoming seriously injured and several other people dying trying to rescue him because he failed to descend properly on a rope. And if the pilots would have had their goddamn reflective belts on they would have been fine.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:10
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Leperflesh posted:I thought we were imagining a world in which Honnold decided to do something other than dedicating his life to climbing rocks?
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Jun 10, 2017 01:18
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Nobody who climbs rocks or mountains or anything gives a single poo poo what you think about it...so what is even the point of all this discussion? It's masturbatory and super loving boring,
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Jun 10, 2017 03:07
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great argument. well thought out. gold star.
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Jun 10, 2017 03:30
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No, really. It's a stupid conversation. Discuss why idiots with zero experience go up Everest to die.
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Jun 10, 2017 06:16
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Leperflesh posted:His natural abilities probably revolve around being very even-tempered, able to focus for long periods, high degrees of eye-hand and body coordination, and of course, physical fitness and strength. I don't know if having no fear of heights is a natural ability or a developed skill. If he can also pass academic classes, he could probably be an actual astronaut. Or an olympic athlete. Or maybe he could do underwater welding, or operate a crane doing skyscraper construction. He could be a stunt pilot, maybe? There's countless careers and endeavors that those abilities could apply to and which aren't nearly as dangerous and/or have some greater benefit to society. Yes, if only Alex Honnold had a safe job like astronaut or stunt pilot.
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Jun 11, 2017 04:54
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