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Fun with STARS. So, a captain was telling me about this FO that "wouldn't slow down, he just kept flying the last speed assigned on the STAR!" (210 kts off the HAWKZ5 at KSEA landing south). I was like, "Well, he's technically correct, even though most of us cheat in the turn because they always blow you through the loc and they usually give you 190 til bugne 170 til finka and if they give you the 070 turn toward finka at 210 you're probably going around." Him: "No, once you're off the STAR, you can slow" Me: "Nah, technically the 210 KTS at VASHN is to be interpreted the same as a controller telling you to maintain 210 kts. Your FO was ... technically correct. Even if nobody does it..." I wish more people would read this...https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs400/afs470/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf Including controllers. That said, when seattle final is busy and turns you at 210 kts, well, it doesn't really work amazing at 210 kts as you're at 45 degrees of bank trying to capture the loc after they give you a super late turn if you're going that fast... so there's book answer and there's "what pilots do in the real world". And that's a tricky thing to figure out when it's 121... (see also: ORD taxiing) I've been told many times on that STAR for example to "maintain 260 kts" when what they really mean is "maintain 260 kts, comply with the published speeds at HAWKZ (or pikez)" etc. Phraseology matters for what I'm going to do...
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Jun 9, 2017 04:14
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The Slaughter posted:I've been told many times on that STAR for example to "maintain 260 kts" when what they really mean is "maintain 260 kts, comply with the published speeds at HAWKZ (or pikez)" etc. Phraseology matters for what I'm going to do... So as a (still relatively new) Seattle Center controller that's the kind of stuff I listen for to coordinate with approach. I don't work in the area that actually issues the descend via instructions for the HAWKZ, but the area that vectors you across Oregon to cross Battle Ground at the right time (sorry). But the concept is the same, and as an assistant controller I'm gonna question the radar controller: "are you gonna have them resume published speeds at [whatever intersection]?". Because if not I have to talk to somebody at approach. So I would think my colleagues in that area would do the same, because that is confusing.
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Jun 9, 2017 08:01
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Radio is 2 way. A quick "Control we need to start slowing or extend track miles" is the other code for WTF
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Jun 9, 2017 14:50
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Not many want to stick out like the sore thumb that doesn't have the street smarts to just do "what pilots do in the real world." Problem is, when all the pieces don't fit legally, we're the ones (voluntarily) left holding the bag.
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Jun 9, 2017 16:00
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Zochness posted:So as a (still relatively new) Seattle Center controller... I might have to invoke a night of goon drinking next time I'm out there to see that place. It's basically numero-uno on my list of get-the-gently caress-out-of-this-rat-infested-shithole options. In other news, I showed up for the mid on Monday night, and we still had three sectors open due to weather delays. Our departure sector was working six DTAs worth of traffic (our four, plus two that had been weather-swapped) out a seven mile hole in the weather. I'm getting the briefing when TMU comes around the corner and says "Hey, Lauderdale has 29 taxiing, and Miami has 13, we're taking the in-trail off," does an about-face, and leaves. All five of us in the room just looked at each other, then looked at the sup, who RAN after them. Even the MIA approach controller (they normally give ZERO fucks) calls up and says "Hey, they just took the in-trail off, but it doesn't look good, I'm gonna try to give you ten on these till I hear something different." TMU is the enemy. 
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Jun 9, 2017 16:23
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MrYenko posted:I might have to invoke a night of goon drinking next time I'm out there to see that place. It's basically numero-uno on my list of get-the-gently caress-out-of-this-rat-infested-shithole options. This is beautiful.
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Jun 9, 2017 18:39
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I'm pretty sure every TMU is taught that before they can leave for the night they have to cancel all restrictions except the JFK in trail
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Jun 9, 2017 21:07
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PT6A posted:Two questions, though: on approach I got "cleared to descent" with no restriction. I clarified, but in the future should I take that to mean I can descend as required for a straight in approach? Second: on ground, I was given clearance to taxi to an intersecting, inactive runway and pull off to allow opposite direction traffic to pass. I pulled left on the runway, but I get the feeling I should have gone right. No direction was specified; was that my fault, for not being aware of where other traffic was taxiing (which I suppose it was, in any case), should the controller have given me an instruction, or should I have asked for clarification? If you're VFR you can descend as required for whatever pattern entry you're given. For your taxi question, there's nothing written about it in the regs as far as I'm aware so you can pick which side you want to go to. If the controller needs something specific they'll tell you.
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Jun 9, 2017 22:49
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Iucounu posted:If you're VFR you can descend as required for whatever pattern entry you're given. Yeah, that's what I figured on both counts, after thinking about it. I still think I should've asked for further direction, to make things easiest for everyone. gently caress, no wonder pilots need so many hours before being trusted with anything important 
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Jun 10, 2017 00:31
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MrYenko posted:I might have to invoke a night of goon drinking next time I'm out there to see that place. It's basically numero-uno on my list of get-the-gently caress-out-of-this-rat-infested-shithole options. Haha, Jesus gently caress. quote:TMU is the enemy. They really are. Especially when you're a "support facility" and your TMU is almost nothing but people from tiny rear end little towers with no center experience whatsoever. One of the FLM's I work with spent a lot of time in TMU and it really irks him when I inevitably start talking poo poo because they did yet another stupid thing. e: another reason I'm glad I'm off the mid for at least the rest of this year is that there are few things worse than a mid where weather is loving your poo poo up. Especially when you were told the weather would be bad and you asked for an extra body and they said no. gently caress management too. fknlo fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jun 10, 2017 |
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Jun 10, 2017 02:40
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I feel bad for Reno controllers, last time I flew they had 16L closed (the one they normally put GA on because the FBO is on that side of the field) and not only were they forced to sequence airliner traffic behind my slow rear end, taxi instructions are all messed up due to the work they're doing right now the way to get from the FBO ramp to the active runway is to taxi south out of the ramp, over to (closed to landings and takeoffs) 16L, north on it all the way to the end where you dogleg around on taxiways to avoid the large glowing X they parked there, and then over to the threshold for the active runway. normally it's just "taxi via C to 16L" and Ground is done with you I somehow managed to pick up most of what he was getting at and my instructor filled in the rest. Another Cessna that was heading out heard all of it, waited 30 seconds, and then asked again on Ground "Can I get a clearance to leave the ramp?"
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Jun 10, 2017 02:42
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loving TMU... I totally jinxed us today. SJC - LAX.... hunh, no EDCT time?! no flow!? woohoo! Said to the CA, "I guess they upgraded that commodore 64 that runs their TMU". Starting both engine "hey we have a wheels up time for you now (time now plus 25 minutes)..." of course you do, I should have never said anything. Then first check in with center, 250 kt assigned (normal for us is like 290/300) and flying 250 for 40 min :|
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Jun 11, 2017 07:41
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Got my facility options today: Dillingham Alaska FSS, Ketchikan Alaska FSS, Kenai Alaska FSS, Juneau Alaska FSS, Fairbank Alaska FSS 
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Jun 15, 2017 18:45
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two_beer_bishes posted:Got my facility options today: Dillingham Alaska FSS, Ketchikan Alaska FSS, Kenai Alaska FSS, Juneau Alaska FSS, Fairbank Alaska FSS What? How are they going to send a level 12 center washout to flight service? How does that even work since LockMart runs that poo poo?
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Jun 15, 2017 19:34
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fknlo posted:What? How are they going to send a level 12 center washout to flight service? How does that even work since LockMart runs that poo poo? Alaska FSS is still FAA, the very last of the FAA facilities.
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Jun 15, 2017 20:48
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two_beer_bishes posted:Alaska FSS is still FAA, the very last of the FAA facilities. God drat, that sucks. At least that means there might be some form of pipeline out of there if you don't say gently caress it? I don't even know what I'd do. I find it really loving hard to believe they didn't throw a tower of some sort in there.
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Jun 16, 2017 01:53
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two_beer_bishes posted:Got my facility options today: Dillingham Alaska FSS, Ketchikan Alaska FSS, Kenai Alaska FSS, Juneau Alaska FSS, Fairbank Alaska FSS What the gently caress? Oh son....you are getting hosed. Wow. Someone is being vindictive at you. Very. gently caress that. If there isn't a pipeline out of that poo poo, go talk to the Flight Data guys at your center instead. See if they need anyone. Man...wow. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Jun 16, 2017 |
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Jun 16, 2017 04:39
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I can ERR after a year but real ATC will have priority over me, so I'll likely never get to where we want to be. I'm leaning towards resigning if my appeal is denied. If anyone has any advice or insight, I'm all ears
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Jun 16, 2017 12:27
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two_beer_bishes posted:I can ERR after a year but real ATC will have priority over me, so I'll likely never get to where we want to be. I'm leaning towards resigning if my appeal is denied. If anyone has any advice or insight, I'm all ears Lawyer up or something. Something sounds fucky. NATCA totally gives no shits about you. Start calling some level 5 towers directly. Yes, 5s. You don't give a poo poo about starting at a high level fac. You just want to keep your job. You can move up from there. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jun 16, 2017 |
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Jun 16, 2017 13:34
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two_beer_bishes posted:I can ERR after a year but real ATC will have priority over me, so I'll likely never get to where we want to be. I'm leaning towards resigning if my appeal is denied. If anyone has any advice or insight, I'm all ears So you can't take bids out, only ERR? There's always some facility that no one else wants to go to but you'd be just as stuck there. I honestly don't know what I'd do in your situation. You're getting hosed so hard. Tommy 2.0 posted:Lawyer up or something. Something sounds fucky. NATCA totally gives no shits about you. I doubt a lawyer can help in this situation since you were offered something but I'd at least find one to talk to. We just had some fuckery where a D-side trainee with zero sectors ended up getting his job back and his choice of tower below level 9 so there's always hope. Doing your own legwork by calling a bunch of facilities won't hurt either. I always find it amazing that the FAA is willing to basically throw people already in the system away with poo poo like this when there are so many places hard up for bodies. I get that the FSS in Alaska are probably in the exact same boat but there has to be a different way to get people to them.
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Jun 16, 2017 15:25
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Tommy 2.0 posted:What the gently caress? Oh son....you are getting hosed. Wow. Someone is being vindictive at you. Very. gently caress. New York. Forever. 2BB: If you want some phone numbers for towers down here, let me know, and I'll see what I can rustle up.
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Jun 16, 2017 16:29
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Pardon my ignorance but what would calling a tower do for me? What would the process be?
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Jun 16, 2017 16:47
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two_beer_bishes posted:Pardon my ignorance but what would calling a tower do for me? What would the process be? I'm asking my Assistant Facility Rep about your situation. Did you have any certifications at all? Because if not he says he only knows of two occasions where people without any certifications got offered anything but the door.
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Jun 16, 2017 19:19
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The situation is becoming more and more common. As of last year they told us they would stop offering any assistance to people who wash in their first facility (especially with out certifications). So in that sense, be somewhat happy that you even got offered FSS. ZNY/ZOA just wash people out because they don't like their personalities, it's more of a dating contest than anything else. As far as the ones you posted, Juneau and Fairbanks would be my choice. In that order. Juneau is alot like Seattle, and I liked it there. Fairbanks is pretty chill, nice summers but lovely winters. It's really up to you if you want to flat out resign - I don't know your personal situation. For me, I'd go to FSS for a year and then transfer back when you can. From everyone I know who went to the FSS in Alaska, they all like it. They also move around a little bit between them, and they don't really work. I don't think a lawyer will help you at all. But you can ask. This is from the ncept - these are 7 and down facilities that are short. (ranked by blue categories)   This is all faciliites ranked by Blue  I would start calling the chief at the top of that list (more importantly you want someone with a Low CPC Percentage & LOW Blue CPC+DEV Percentage), tell them you're washing out and tell them you want to work at their facility. Ask how to get there and if you can come meet them. Tell them that you need an offer by X date otherwise you're being moved to FSS in Alaska. Then call the next one if the first one says no... etc. TangoFox fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jun 16, 2017 |
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Jun 16, 2017 19:35
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TangoFox posted:
My assistant facrep made it sound like once you go the flight service route that it's going to be borderline impossible to get back into something 2152 related without getting picked up in a bid. I could handle Alaska for a while but I don't know about what might be a completely dead end FSS job that's eventually going to go away.
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Jun 16, 2017 19:38
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fknlo posted:I'm asking my Assistant Facility Rep about your situation. Did you have any certifications at all? Because if not he says he only knows of two occasions where people without any certifications got offered anything but the door. Just a-side, no d sides though. I just wasn't able to work the traffic at ZNY, I have no doubt about my abilities at a lower lever facility, and the tower I want to go to is only a 5 anyway! My wife won't go to Alaska with me, partly because of her career and partly because of a medical thing about being in too cold of weather, and I have no intention of divorcing my wife for this career. I think I'll end up going for a couple months (hopefully) while I wait for the grievance process, then I'll probably resign if it doesn't end up in my favor (or maybe I'll really like it there, that's certainly a possibility). fknlo posted:My assistant facrep made it sound like once you go the flight service route that it's going to be borderline impossible to get back into something 2152 related without getting picked up in a bid. I could handle Alaska for a while but I don't know about what might be a completely dead end FSS job that's eventually going to go away. Even if the FSS position is 2152? I've heard of flight data 2154 guys going back into control positions...but everything changes everyday so I shouldn't be surprised.
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Jun 16, 2017 19:44
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two_beer_bishes posted:Just a-side, no d sides though. I just wasn't able to work the traffic at ZNY, I have no doubt about my abilities at a lower lever facility, and the tower I want to go to is only a 5 anyway! My wife won't go to Alaska with me, partly because of her career and partly because of a medical thing about being in too cold of weather, and I have no intention of divorcing my wife for this career. I think I'll end up going for a couple months (hopefully) while I wait for the grievance process, then I'll probably resign if it doesn't end up in my favor (or maybe I'll really like it there, that's certainly a possibility). Is FSS 2152? He made it sound like it wasn't. If it is, your wife's medical issue might be a ticket out with a hardship. With no control positions your options are incredibly limited, even though it's partially an issue with them continuing to send new hires to loving meat grinders.
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Jun 16, 2017 19:54
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The lovely part is in 6 months when FSS is full, are they going to be sending washout to towers again?
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Jun 16, 2017 20:16
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two_beer_bishes posted:The lovely part is in 6 months when FSS is full, are they going to be sending washout to towers again? For real, you probably only got offered FSS because of the lack of having any control position certifications. However, if there have been other people from your facility that have also washed out with no certifications who were offered real facilities you might have a case. Our guy that just went through this(who was legit bad and also did not give a gently caress about the job) ended up getting his job back and his choice of towers because someone else at the same time who had family in the FAA got offered multiple facilities while he got none. There were other factors involved with hosed up things from training, but I think that was the main deal. They shouldn't be sending new hires to places like ZNY. They supposedly learned their lesson with the high level TRACONS but continue to do it with enroute.
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Jun 16, 2017 20:45
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Won't lie, without any qualifications besides As, I'm surprised you still have a job. Especially out of New York. I did quite an eyebrow raise on reading that. I know of less than a handful of people, personally, who got fired and got the FAA in to a lawsuit and got their job back. And they were basically bulletproof once they were re-hired. The FAA is not worth compromising your relationship for.
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Jun 16, 2017 21:03
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Tommy 2.0 posted:The FAA is not worth compromising your relationship for. Absolutely this, especially for a flight service job. I don't know what those pay, but there's no way it's enough to deal with a spouse or whatever that doesn't want to go. Depending on your age you probably have a better chance of getting picked up on another bid than getting out of one of those FSS positions. e: Just found out that ZKC lost 7 people to the latest NCEPT round while gaining zero. . Our last ATM hosed this place so hard and I'm so glad I'm getting out.
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Jun 16, 2017 21:43
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I'm glad to hear you guys say that, it really helps make the decision easier. I'm 31 so there's no way I'm getting another shot.
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Jun 16, 2017 22:42
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If you went to flight data you will get to keep your current pay level. We got a washout (he went center, tower, now fdc) and he did at least. Spin your wheels.
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Jun 17, 2017 00:10
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Blackchamber posted:If you went to flight data you will get to keep your current pay level. We got a washout (he went center, tower, now fdc) and he did at least. Spin your wheels. I've done FD while waiting on a academy seat. If you can talk to FD about just moving over laterally, do it. I swore to the guys I worked FD with not to spill the secret that it was actually the best job in the center. If the pay was better I never would have left it. Protip: the pay is actually really good. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Jun 17, 2017 |
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Jun 17, 2017 02:17
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Tommy 2.0 posted:I've done FD while waiting on a academy seat. If you can talk to FD about just moving over laterally, do it. If you could get into FD that would be great. That has to be one of the most cake jobs in the building. I don't know what the pay is, but I'm pretty sure you don't actually do anything so it's going to be worth it. When did Southwest become the premier ride bitching company? For at least a month now like 90% of my ride complaints have come from them and I've had days where they're literally the only ones complaining too. You used to be so cool Southwest. What happened?
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Jun 18, 2017 15:46
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If it helps I can throw you some emails of some guys at the Alaskan FSS buildings.
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Jun 18, 2017 19:26
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I'll push for FD over FSS, not sure if they'll go for it though. TF, I'd appreciate any contact info you can provide!
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Jun 19, 2017 12:45
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two_beer_bishes posted:I'll push for FD over FSS, not sure if they'll go for it though. TF, I'd appreciate any contact info you can provide! I'm sure nothing horrible will come to posting someone's random email on SA, but here it is - Val Larsen vallarsen@hotmail.com He's at "FS4" which I think was Nome FSS, he should still be there (i went to a class two years ago with him), but he should be able to hook you up. I've also attached a photo with the FACREPs from each, reach out to them and ask them about their facility and what they think. If you act like you want to go there, they'll be pretty open with telling you info.
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Jun 19, 2017 13:53
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Wow, thanks!
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Jun 19, 2017 14:14
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Also, even if you end up not taking a job there, go to Anchorage and make the drive to Kenai. It's absolutely, achingly, beautiful.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:51
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