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Guys, classical liberalism and libertarianism both build on similar foundations as they both define liberty in accordance with negative liberty. While they do disagree about the role of the state this argument is mostly pointless. Neoliberalism is as much built on the assumptions and musings of Adam Smith as it is Robert Nozick. VVVVVVVVV: This explanation also works. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 19:24
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"Classical Liberalism" has a fairly specifically defined set of ideas to it, going back a hundred years or so. It's economically focused libertarianism, similar enough to what we generally think of as libertarianism in the US that the differences don't particularly matter. It has nothing to do with "liberal" as it's used in the US today, and nothing to do with the Democratic party. It's largely the same set of philosophers and economists libertarians usually go to when they want to defend their ideas: Locke, Hayek, etc. There were meaningful academic differences once upon a time, but it still boils down to the same set of political beliefs, except this time they're wearing a powdered wig. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 19:29
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Carl's only left wing view is realizing that right wing people are generally seen as dumb. He thinks of himself as not dumb and thus cannot be right wing.
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Jun 11, 2017 19:38
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Carl is a contrarian, a philosophy which eludes any categorization.
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Jun 11, 2017 19:40
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Libertarianism is a bizarre ideology. I came in thinking it was "I want the government out of my bedroom" and then I read some Hoppe and now it looks more like...I dunno, evil? Somebody in the Trump threat defined it as "Libertarianism for me, Authoritarianism fro everyone else." The only institution they want done away with is the social safety net. Nuclear family, race, class, etc.? That's great, keep all that. Is Classical Liberalism like that? MiddleOne posted:Carl is a contrarian, a philosophy which eludes any categorization. As Shaun put it "it's "you can't tell me what to do, mum" but as a political position." NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 19:45
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it's like when you engage with any of these types on twitter or whatever you go why aren't you a feminist don't you believe in equality? and they go i believe in equality but feminists ruined feminism! because they know good people believe in equality but they still hate women.NikkolasKing posted:Is Classical Liberalism like that? in practice, yes. a lot of decently well-off sheltered white college aged guys identify as "classical liberal" (stupider younger me included) but they should mature out of it.
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Jun 11, 2017 19:46
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NikkolasKing posted:Euro-goons, specifically German ones, can I ask you for some insight? There are other countries that have drafted mandatory service, although usually give an option that isn't the military (civil service) and the service only lasts a year or so. First example that came to mind is Norway, and obviously the policy has failed to make everyone there right-wing. Last time I heard this "bring back mandatory service for the darn millennials who don't know what hardship is like us" it was some guy in his fifties in my workplace. I think we have a an outbreak of disease in this country which modifies the memories of boomers to make them believe they lived through WW2 and not an era of postwar prosperity,
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Jun 11, 2017 20:50
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I think another big war could have helped the US. Kill a whole bunch more of the Boomers.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:02
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NikkolasKing posted:Is Classical Liberalism like that? Libertarianism generally is, or assumes, a strong deontological ethics system. This means strong, usually nebulously defined rights. Deontologically focused ethics systems are, generally, pretty sucky as a political ideology because they don't address practical or causal elements, or the entailments of the rights systems, or rights conflicts...etc. Functioning societies have a mix of deontological systems (assertions of strong rules such as human or citizen rights) and consequentialist systems (exceptions to those strong rules, checks and balances, causal reasoning and flexible amendment systems). The 5,000 foot view of Classical Liberalism is that it's Libertarianism, applied specifically (and, roughly speaking, exclusively) to economic rights. Free market all the way, often with a smattering of paleocon government minimalism. Historically, it was a reaction against what we'd now call conservatism, and some forms of what we'd think of as modern-day liberalism. That's...mostly fallen away. It's worth emphasizing that there's a genuine set of at least decently reasoned historical texts and ideas somewhere in the roots of this, but even back then, people didn't use the term consistently, and although some of these ideas were impressive or innovative at the time, they obviously have not stood up to testing. When people first came up with, say, individual egoist conceptions of society, it was at least new and different from "God/the King says so". Now...not so much.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:08
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service guarantees citizenship! [would you like to know more?]
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Jun 11, 2017 21:10
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NikkolasKing posted:Libertarianism is a bizarre ideology. I came in thinking it was "I want the government out of my bedroom" and then I read some Hoppe and now it looks more like...I dunno, evil? Somebody in the Trump threat defined it as "Libertarianism for me, Authoritarianism fro everyone else." The only institution they want done away with is the social safety net. Nuclear family, race, class, etc.? That's great, keep all that. That's all of Libertarianism really. It's a bunch of racists who want to get the limits thrown off of them, combined with a bunch of greedy morons who think they'll be first one to hit the betray button and get to be King rear end in a top hat. It's really just a dust bin of stupid conservative ideas that have only gained popularity in the US because of how toxic the GOP brand is. Whatever wild-eyed populist was describing them as centrists upthread has zero clue. quote:Is Classical Liberalism like that? Having seen both, there's no an inch of daylight between them position-wise. Maybe some difference in presentation, because the classical liberals I've heard talking are never shy about putting their racism and sexism out front and center. Libertarians tended to be smart enough to keep that card close to their chest. I chalk that up to Libertarians generally having a little more education and sense-- racism is toxic in modern polite society, which is why they hide their position behind ideals. quote:As Shaun put it "it's "you can't tell me what to do, mum" but as a political position." Well, yeah, basically. There are a surprising number of political positions that come down to "I don't want to be an adult" when you break it down to their basics.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:24
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Discendo Vox posted:The 5,000 foot view of Classical Liberalism is that it's Libertarianism, applied specifically (and, roughly speaking, exclusively) to economic rights. Free market all the way, often with a smattering of paleocon government minimalism. The man you're talking about in this case (Sargon) has a 10th grade education. Do you think he even has a chance to get any of the nuance down, or do you think he's just a standard disingenuous NEET who's bitter that people with some actual human value are getting ahead of him in society?
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Jun 11, 2017 21:27
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rkajdi posted:The man you're talking about in this case (Sargon) has a 10th grade education. Do you think he even has a chance to get any of the nuance down, or do you think he's just a standard disingenuous NEET who's bitter that people with some actual human value are getting ahead of him in society? People invested in the idea of racial superiority often offer very little to society, as their claim to human value is an accident of birth. I can't understand how a human woman dated and decided to marry him, especially since she must have been supporting him financially prior to his patreon days (which are sure to meet diminishing returns at some point).
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Jun 11, 2017 21:51
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rkajdi posted:The man you're talking about in this case (Sargon) has a 10th grade education. Do you think he even has a chance to get any of the nuance down, or do you think he's just a standard disingenuous NEET who's bitter that people with some actual human value are getting ahead of him in society? Oh, almost certainly not. I'm guessing he's been to mises.org a couple times or something. I'm providing the historical context and something approaching actual info about the concept of it just for contrast and background purposes.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:56
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Discendo Vox posted:Oh, almost certainly not. I'm guessing he's been to mises.org a couple times or something. I'm providing the historical context and something approaching actual info about the concept of it just for contrast and background purposes. Even mises.org involves reading. The closest he'd get an Ayn Rand picture book and a couple of youtube videos by other alt-right types. business hammocks posted:People invested in the idea of racial superiority often offer very little to society, as their claim to human value is an accident of birth. I can't understand how a human woman dated and decided to marry him, especially since she must have been supporting him financially prior to his patreon days (which are sure to meet diminishing returns at some point). He's married? That's rather awful for her, considering how lowly he values women. I'm also doubting she supported him at all, in that I doubt anyone with much hope in life would ever screw, much less date or marry a NEET. It's very likely they just muddled through life while living with parents until he "struck gold" with his $60K patreon. I halfway expected to find him ranting about his gas station/supermarket supervisor for firing him when I looked back at his earliest videos.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:12
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If he had a bread winner wife that would explain where a lot of the resentment comes from
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Jun 11, 2017 22:14
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:If he had a bread winner wife that would explain where a lot of the resentment comes from He'd probably have some video about it up by now though. Or else his wife would have gotten flack at work if anyone caught on what an absolute waste her husband is. Having people that close to obvious bigotry is basically asking for a court case if anything happens with a minority employee. EDIT: Listening to his oldest posted video on Youtube gives me a suspicion that the guy just started off as a standard basement dweller. His sound quality is awful, and the video is just some stills from a google image search spliced into an Anita Sarkeesian video. Of course this guy got his start there, before diving straight into the GamerGate fecal mound when that showed up. It's like these guys all are replaceable because they all have the same sad background, same lack of education, and same instigating event. I think there's something to be said for even a bigot with as small a difference as Thunderf00t (i.e. not being a racist, just a sexist) being unable to stay in their community in the long term. rkajdi fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 22:21
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~had~
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Jun 11, 2017 22:24
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Classical liberalism isn't really a position you can actually hold in this day and age. Or rather, it's a position that talks about issues that don't make sense in modern society. They're trying to use old arguments against crown monopolies to attack protections against monopolies, and it just doesn't work at all.NikkolasKing posted:Libertarianism is a bizarre ideology. I came in thinking it was "I want the government out of my bedroom" and then I read some Hoppe and now it looks more like...I dunno, evil? Somebody in the Trump threat defined it as "Libertarianism for me, Authoritarianism fro everyone else." The only institution they want done away with is the social safety net. Nuclear family, race, class, etc.? That's great, keep all that. Anyone calling themselves classical liberals now, probably. The actual classical liberals, not so much. Pretty much the biggest classical liberal thinker you'll actually see people cite these days was JS Mill, who got elected to Parliament and introduced their first women's suffrage bill, and who had some things to say about women that would disqualify him from hanging out with Carl and his ilk: "[i posted:On the Subjection of Women[/i]"][T]he principle which regulates the existing social relations between the two sexes—the legal subordination of one sex to the other—is wrong in itself, and now one of the chief hindrances to human improvement; and … it ought to be replaced by a principle of perfect equality, admitting no power or privilege on the one side, nor disability on the other.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:26
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:~had~ Is he also divorced now? If so, that really explains why the guy is super bitter. Hopefully, she can find a way to get half his nutjob bucks, because that would just add to the irony level if these NEETs are actually funding a real life g-g-g-g-g-girl with a real job to boot.
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Jun 12, 2017 00:06
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I'm speculating. It's just as likely he's as sexless as the other shitbirds
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Jun 12, 2017 00:18
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I'm speculating. It's just as likely he's as sexless as the other shitbirds Gotcha. It seems pretty obvious that being an incel isn't all that great for your mental health. Of course, the solution isn't that they are owed sex from women, it's that they need to HTFU and become a decent enough person for a women to deign to gently caress them. Judging by the past and present, this isn't too high of a bar to get over, so anyone unwilling or incapable of doing so should be mocked mercilessly.
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Jun 12, 2017 00:38
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speaking of Sargon, he's all in with that kekistan poo poo https://twitter.com/sam_kriss/status/874019528925171712 every dumb protest you see less and less of these pepe dudes, now they're getting beat up other nutcases
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Jun 12, 2017 00:55
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anyone who's gone any length of time without sex can tell you it isn't good for your mental health. there was even a study released recently that showed it to be a basal need like food or sleep. the problem is these guys don't hit the gym or stop being shitbirds. the problem is always women not themselves.
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Jun 12, 2017 00:55
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Groovelord Neato posted:anyone who's gone any length of time without sex can tell you it isn't good for your mental health. there was even a study released recently that showed it to be a basal need like food or sleep. They should organize themselves into clubs that share masturbation techniques, which would solve their need for human contact and their basal need for sexual gratification. The youtube gang are indeed very close to mutual masturbation already imo.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:12
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the basal need was actual sex with another human being not just masturbating. your plan would fail!
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Jun 12, 2017 01:22
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can we maybe not claim that asexuality is a mental disorder please
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Jun 12, 2017 01:28
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I've had plenty of sex that made me feel more alone and that didn't at all validate my existence as a feeling, thinking consciousness. And I feel like I must be better at it than a pepe wearing historical armor. Surely it would at least be a step up for most of them to jack off together or jack each other off or whatever.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:31
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ungulateman posted:can we maybe not claim that asexuality is a mental disorder please i don't think anyone was claiming that. but for the vast majority of people sex is a drive like hunger.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:33
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business hammocks posted:I've had plenty of sex that made me feel more alone and that didn't at all validate my existence as a feeling, thinking consciousness. And I feel like I must be better at it than a pepe wearing historical armor. Surely it would at least be a step up for most of them to jack off together or jack each other off or whatever. sex isn't the problem with these guys, it's a symptom. it's not hard to get sex if you want it so long as you're not completely repellant to others. incels are a weird combination of vacant social skills, narcissism, and rock bottom self esteem which cause them to strike out in social relationships constantly, blame others for it, and then lack the self drive to improve or worse, rationalize away why they should even bother
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Jun 12, 2017 01:37
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ungulateman posted:can we maybe not claim that asexuality is a mental disorder please I don't think anyone was. Incel != Vocel. If you're legitimately without sex drive, I can see being celebate wouldn't screw you up. But incels by definition aren't asexual, they're people who desperately want to have sex, but are either unwilling to have any with the available partners (i.e. HB10 virgins under 30 only plz) or just can't find any takers at all. That must grind you up a bit, especially since it effectively says you don't have any actual worth.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:37
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i mean, i find it hard to get sex, but i also recognise the fault lies with me and i'm not concerned enough about it to change my behaviour 
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Jun 12, 2017 02:37
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business hammocks posted:They should organize themselves into clubs that share masturbation techniques, which would solve their need for human contact and their basal need for sexual gratification. The youtube gang are indeed very close to mutual masturbation already imo. A lot of these guys are into the No Fap thing, so that's a non-starter. It's like they watch Dr. Strangelove and somehow got the message that General Ripper was the hero.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:38
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ungulateman posted:i mean, i find it hard to get sex, but i also recognise the fault lies with me and i'm not concerned enough about it to change my behaviour in order to be an incel you have to be undersexed and somehow think it's someone else's problem to deal with someone who's unlucky in love but self aware doesn't qualify imo and in many ways it's a blessing in disguise to have no sex drive. imagine if you didn't have to eat
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Jun 12, 2017 02:49
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rkajdi posted:A lot of these guys are into the No Fap thing, so that's a non-starter. It's like they watch Dr. Strangelove and somehow got the message that General Ripper was the hero. I don't understand the No Fap thing. I tried it a few times in high school and never lasted more than a few days.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:51
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ungulateman posted:i mean, i find it hard to get sex, but i also recognise the fault lies with me and i'm not concerned enough about it to change my behaviour Which is fine. Again, if you had enough drive for you to want more sex, I'd assume you'd alter your behavior to get more. But these guys want it badly and refuse to do anything about either standards or behavior to obtain it. If they weren't so viscerally disgusting, I might actually feel sorry for them. I've met dudes that hosed up before (Like the guy who asked how I felt being one degree of separation from another dude's dick every time I kiss my girlfriend) but most of them get out of that quickly once they understand how stupid a position that is. I understand that people have hosed up initial positions about sex when they are young, because we as a society don't educate kids what is normal and what is reasonable to expect from sex. But when you let that poo poo fester into your adult life, it starts creating some weird mental illness vicious cycle that just fucks you up completely. It's probably part of the reason why you get insane things out of theses guys, like the idea that having a daughter is the ultimate cucking, or just the more extreme levels of MGTOW.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:54
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BigRed0427 posted:I don't understand the No Fap thing. I tried it a few times in high school and never lasted more than a few days. I know. Plus, the other thing I don't think they get is that it's going to hurt their performance. Who wants to be a two pump chump? Your partner has a bad time, and the amount of fun for the amount of prep is awful. I have to think the whole thing comes down to some anti-porn Christians getting inside the heads of man-o-sphere types a bit. You have some of these guys suggesting that internet porn makes them impotent, which is like an entire extra level of lulz.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:59
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It COULD also be a product of media and a culture that suggests that dudes should be losing their virginity by their senior year of highschool. No later than first year of college. If you don't get laid by then your not a man. People deal with that feeling in really strange and possibly dangerous ways.rkajdi posted:I know. Plus, the other thing I don't think they get is that it's going to hurt their performance. Who wants to be a two pump chump? Your partner has a bad time, and the amount of fun for the amount of prep is awful. I KIND of see where this is coming from? Granted I didn't lose my virginity until I realized I was trans but I have never been able to finish without doing it myself. And this was totally a thought that crossed my mind and "OH GOD! Their gonna think i don't actually like them" BigRed0427 fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Jun 12, 2017 |
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Jun 12, 2017 02:59
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The no-fap philosophy revolves around antisemitism and that not jacking off makes you a superhuman it is not a coherent movement
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Jun 12, 2017 03:13
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BigRed0427 posted:I don't understand the No Fap thing. I tried it a few times in high school and never lasted more than a few days. Well you'll obviously never get anywhere if you keep jizzing out all your sex power.
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Jun 12, 2017 03:29
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