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cheetah7071 posted:Roy is pretty garbage too but he's just red Marth so Roy is garbage, but he's garbage in the opposite way to Corrin. Where Corrin is central to the plot, but a complete loving idiot who does everything wrong while all his friends and family tell him he's great, Roy makes no mistakes, and has no investment in the central narrative beyond "As a human, I think the villain's plans to wipe out humanity are bad." The rest of the cast who gets dialog (mainly Merlinus) exists to doubt him, so he looks smarter when he makes the correct call anyway. Also, Corrin's useful as a unit.
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Jun 11, 2017 03:10
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Tae posted:The only difference between Corrin and other FE protags are that his/her support cast are bad at actually pushing through the mistakes made. Corrin makes just as many mistakes, has just as much doubt, and still attract a lot of people for no other reason than that they're charismatic at times. yes, and my complaint is that their support cast was written that way, which I feel is because Corrin is a self-insert protagonist meant to stroke the player's ego,
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Jun 11, 2017 03:12
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Two points I would argue is that game before, Robin, had infinitely more internal conflict or disagreement among the good guys whether it was early game Frederick or late game Lucina. Birthright Takumi might be the only real conflict you see on the same side for all three routes. Second point is that they have written picture perfect stroking ego on a main character before, which is Radiant Dawn Ike. So I'm less forgiving of "oh, they had to suddenly form to make a paradise character" when Ike was pretty much hailed as flawless, legend, hero, and solved everyone's problem with his sword.
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Jun 11, 2017 03:19
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Endorph posted:I think the fact that Corrin is meant to be the self-insert is part of the reason they're never allowed to be wrong, and also the reason for insane knots like the hoshido siblings not being their real siblings because of a letter Mikoto left encouraging them to gently caress Corrin, but there's so much wrong with the game's writing outside of Corrin that it's hard to blame it for all or even more than a few of the game's issues. I certainly wouldn't say that it would make fates good if corrin weren't a self-insert, I was more saying that it would take a LOT of very good flexible writing to make an avatar lord feel like it had agency in a good story. Junpei posted:Which brings up a point of trivia I've been wanting to share: The Yato's original Japanese names. Interesting, so the final forms used the same names as the different versions of the game? Not in this thread obviously, but could you PM the name(s) from the third route?
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Jun 11, 2017 04:45
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Junpei posted:Which brings up a point of trivia I've been wanting to share: The Yato's original Japanese names. Suddenly, the Grim and Shadow Yatos seem like good names.
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Jun 11, 2017 05:05
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Tae posted:Second point is that they have written picture perfect stroking ego on a main character before, which is Radiant Dawn Ike. So I'm less forgiving of "oh, they had to suddenly form to make a paradise character" when Ike was pretty much hailed as flawless, legend, hero, and solved everyone's problem with his sword. Ike both leads by example and has his own internal consistency (and in the second game he's kind of earned his reputation.) Yeah he's pretty much flawless and everyone makes a big deal over him but the only time that feels hollow is at the beginning. Since the worldbuilding fills in that Ike is actually worth the praise he gets. I mean he kills people too but that's not unusual as a mercenary nor is it lampshaded after the fact. (Nor made a big deal of at all like in this game.) The problem with My Character as a lord in this game is because, like with the Conquest storyline, there's a strong element of 'have my cake and eat it too.' They wanted a decent amount of customization to go into the Lord, enough to pull you in as an Avatar. Unfortunately that restricts how you get to write that character and what you can have them do so you don't alienate the person they're being the avatar of. And then they get thrown into the deep end of the pool that is 'changing the Evil Kingdom from within' without having the balls to back it up like Game of Thrones and welp. Nothing good'll come of that. EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 05:33
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I'm replaying PoR right now and Ike is definitely a good character there So basically the pattern I'm seeing is that well-written games have well-written main characters
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Jun 11, 2017 05:47
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Tae posted:Two points I would argue is that game before, Robin, had infinitely more internal conflict or disagreement among the good guys whether it was early game Frederick or late game Lucina. Birthright Takumi might be the only real conflict you see on the same side for all three routes. In the second case, it's pretty clearly a victim of heavy rewriting when they thought that the game wouldn't be popular without Ike in the lead role. When you're forcing a character in because he's popular, naturally you're gonna stroke his ego/try to make him look extra cool. Iunno. Corrin being a self-insert isn't like, even the sole reason the characters are written the way they are, much less the sole cause of all of the writing's problems. But it's undoubtedly part of the reason they thought this direction would be a good idea, and why the premise gets so convoluted so you can marry everyone. This game's issues wouldn't be solved if you replaced Corrin with a non-self insert protag, because this game is already written, but in a hypothetical new game the lack of a player self-insert would make them less likely to want to write the protagonist like this.
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Jun 11, 2017 05:51
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But I don't see how being a self insert prompts that kind of writing? I understand everyone liking them IN THE END, but most self inserts I can think of face lots of hostility at the start and have to win people over.
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Jun 11, 2017 14:58
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I won't lie, neither Robin or Corrin ever felt like a self-insert to me. They have too much of a defined personality. We get to name them and fiddle with their stats and appearance a bit, but the character is the character. We may as well be able to adjust Eirika or Lyn's appearances. Now, Mark in FE7? HE was a self-insert. The characters address him by looking right at the camera/player, and Mark is never given any sort of personality or dialogue - it's all up to the player.
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Jun 11, 2017 15:14
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 So this map is relatively easy compared to the Birthright showdown against Garon, depending on your set-up.   Four of these rooms have Shrine Maidens with a one-time Entrap that has infinite range and 200 hit, meaning they will teleport one unit to fight a super powerful enemy.   The Northeast room has a total of three Spear Masters with super high stats. Effie with Arthur support will endure this, with her husband carrying a pile of Vulneraries.   The Northwest team has Swordmasters with 41 goddamn speed, normally enough to kill just about anyone while avoiding everything. Everyone except a Wary Fighter Percy with Swordbreaker.  And then you have this roaming group of enemies.   The lone Merchant has Wary Fighter with Spendthrift to deal massive damage. The Lancers are actually more annoying because of the double Counter skills and still having Spendthrift.  The rules for the infinite Entrap is that they will: 1) Never target units already in the rooms. 2) Go for the highest stats total. 3) Entrap the highest stats and sort them based on weapon disadvantage. So basically get your highest stats really high, and have them equip a different weapon if possible to trick the Entrappers I.E. Xander with a lance teleported to an Axe user.   The first thing is usually to always kill the healers first, since most of the enemies can't be killed in one turn.  Percy is going to be left alone for most of the map, because he can easily handle the Swordmasters forever.   Effie can actually die to her room, though without some healing. Arthur picks up Dual Guardsman to speed up the guard meter at least.   Corrine is the only one that can one-shot her enemy and takes advantage of it.   Clearing a room opens the door to a stairway that connects to the northern stairs. It opens up a strategy to bait out the roaming group and then charge in through the back.   Ophelia and Leo also take care of their rooms after some hard hits.   For whatever reason, the Lancers retreated back to their original spot while the Merchant kept on going his lonesome. I'll take it.   After much back and forth, my army is in position to eliminate the Lancers in a safe fashion.   And now that just leaves Goo Garon.   Goo Garon is really nothing special. Outside of Dragonskin, his advantage is being really annoying when attacking but that's never going to happen. Percy's PSkill prevents any crit chance, while Leo gets in position for his Heartseeker to do wonders.   That must be the most annoying thing to transcript.  Wheee skating murder king!   NO, REALLY???  EvEn If iT mEaNt...DisObEyInG tHe GrEaT AnAnKoS...  Anankos? What are you talking about?! Your god has nothing to do with this! We all make our own decisions. You are responsible for all of this, monster!  How do you know this??? But even you could have chosen a different path. No matter the circumstances we are born into, or the blood in our veins... We are all the masters of our own fate! That is why I am not like you, nor could I ever be. I chose the path I believe in, the path of peace. And that conviction, that strength... I will use that power to defeat you! Who wrote this, the 47th writer on the team?   You just got Technically Adult'ed   Yes, it was inspiring. 
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Jun 11, 2017 20:39
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I can't believe I never paid attention to the writing when I was playing. Somehow the sheer stupidity of this "reveal" never registered in my mind. I made it to Chapter 26 in Revelations and I still hadn't really let it sink in just how stupid it is.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:51
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And Corrine saves...what, again?
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Jun 11, 2017 22:00
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And why is the king dude suddenly a slime monster? I don't remember this from Birthright.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:02
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Cythereal posted:And why is the king dude suddenly a slime monster? I don't remember this from Birthright. Magic chair.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:08
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Cythereal posted:And why is the king dude suddenly a slime monster? I don't remember this from Birthright. I think the best way to view the terrible plots is to assume each route is its own, independant story. Else you get king garon, who is a slime monster, but also a man, but also a dragon
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Jun 11, 2017 22:15
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And the great princess Corrine thus saved the  I assume Anankos is yet another "please buy Revelations" foreshadowing? Cythereal posted:And why is the king dude suddenly a slime monster? I don't remember this from Birthright. In Birthright we didn't have to invoke the deus ex throno to convince the party to kill murderdad, so the slime monster could keep puppeting him instead of being forced into his true form.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:17
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It turns out Azura was wrong about the throne the entire time and the only power it possesses is to melt dragons into goo.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:20
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Cythereal posted:And why is the king dude suddenly a slime monster? I don't remember this from Birthright. Throne is so comfortable your bones and skin start relaxing too much. It's something of a surprise the first time you kick back in it.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:22
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BlazeEmblem posted:Suddenly, the Grim and Shadow Yatos seem like good names. Are you saying the Japanese names are terrible?
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Jun 11, 2017 22:37
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FoolyCharged posted:I think the best way to view the terrible plots is to assume each route is its own, independant story. Garon was a man. I mean, he was a slime-demon man. Or maybe he was just a dragon. But he was still Garon.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:37
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Junpei posted:Are you saying the Japanese names are terrible? They are garbage word salad.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:38
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there is something fundamentally wrong in having a goo man just fall over when dead instead of melting into a puddle like god intended
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Jun 11, 2017 22:46
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Junpei posted:Are you saying the Japanese names are terrible? Just because something sounds fine in it's native language, doesn't mean it sounds good directly translated to a different one.
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Jun 11, 2017 23:03
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Shei-kun posted:I can't believe I never paid attention to the writing when I was playing. Your eyes just kind glaze over after a while, I guess. I mean, I definitely picked up the plot was stupid in my way too many playthroughs of this game, but it wasn't until looking at the script more closely here that I'm realizing how dumb it is.
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Jun 11, 2017 23:12
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Garon: 2% Evil 98% Slime
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Jun 11, 2017 23:43
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FoolyCharged posted:I think the best way to view the terrible plots is to assume each route is its own, independant story. Yeah, it's alternate timelines.
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Jun 12, 2017 00:19
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Personally I always saw Garon as a melty ice cream cone instead of goo. I also like that he's still wearing his jaunty little crown and cape, turning into an ice cream sundae should not stop one from looking one's best.
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Jun 12, 2017 00:42
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Cythereal posted:And why is the king dude suddenly a slime monster? I don't remember this from Birthright.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:05
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 Garon, or whatever that thing was, is dead. And bubbling up like Azura did in Birthright. Yeah, apparently the chair neutralized the dragon part of his form.  ... ...Rest in peace, Father. Xander... We did the right thing. I know in my heart this was the only way to save him.  How bad do you have to be at writing to try and attempt pity for someone that literally put a continent into death and destruction even among his own people. Not to mention kidnapped someone right after ambushing and killing her father. There's naive characters in fiction but man oh man.   Quickly, let's free the remaining Hoshidan soldiers and release the prisoners— https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzN2kiSXmFQ   It's Takumi. The least surprising reveal since they mentioned his missing body like a billion times in three chapters.   Really, no capital B in betrayal? I'm disappointed.  Hmm, that looks hard to aim like that.  But...what happened to you? The pain of betrayal... Yours and mine... It burns... BURNS!! I must... I WILL...kill you... KILL YOU... Takumi, snap out of it! Please... So...can they actually see the purple fire around his body?   Wow you missed all of them. Takumi, stop this! The war is over! King Garon has been defeated!! Please, Brother! There's no reason to fight each other anymore! War...betrayal...death...murder... That is all there is... I will not...be swayed... War...betrayal...death...  Corrine, wait! I'm afraid he can't be reasoned with. You're not going to want to hear this, but...  I believe he is possessed by something, just as King Garon was. No! Please, it can't be so...Shadow Takumi is the final boss??   Takumi is...no longer with us. I'm afraid it's too late to save him. I'm guessing when he threw himself off the Great Wall of Suzanoh he was already— No! I can't accept that!! Are you saying I must now defeat my own brother? Killing my father wasn't enough?!...You are a goddamn hypocrite in a route full of hypocrites. GARON IS NOT YOUR FATHER. He has not in any way done anything a sane person would be considered as fatherly. Second, you EGGED your siblings to kill their own actual biological dad without hesitation. Third, you're feeling this for someone that you've known for maybe a few days? Quite amazing. *sigh* Yes, that is what I am saying. I'm so sorry... This can't be happening... Boy, if he's mad now, wait till he hears the actual reason why Corrine conquered all of Hoshido.  You destroyed...my kingdom...my family... If you die...I can rest... If you die...the pain... The pain will stop...if I kill you!! Takumi!! Please, my brother. Please don't cry... We have to fight him, Corrine. His mind is...not well. The monster has latched on to his regrets, to his resentment and bitterness. His heart and mind have been pushed past the point of no return. We have to stop him before more innocent lives are lost.Also another bad and direct result of joining Conquest is Azura not being able to sing off the curse. The same thing that Takumi had way back in chapter 10 of Birthright. Wait! Don't move. Corrine? Oh, finally something that I agree with. I am to blame for much of the heartache in his life... I chose this path. I do not regret it...but I must take responsibility for it. There's only one way to do that... What. No. Y-you don't intend to—  Wait, Corrine! It's too dangerous! Please! Come back!! ... Corrine... Betrayal... Death... Must...kill you... Takumi... I know I've never been there for you like a sister should... I've caused you much suffering, and I couldn't save you at the Great Wall...  "I will not die here." That is what she is saying. I won't let you kill me, but the very least I can do... Is accept all of your anger. Death! Murder! BETRAYAL!! I will kill you, Corrine! I...WILL...KILL YOU!!  "I won't die, but kill me." WHO WROTE THIS DIIIIIEEEE!!   WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN   "Hey Corrine, this thing that was making Garon a goo king is now in Takumi. And you know how that turned out." "I'mma let it shoot me, then"  NOOOOO!! Corrine?! Corrine!! How could one arrow be so powerful?!Oh by the way, the Yato shattered because it's mandatory.  After all I've...been through... That's not enough...to stop me... Ryoma is...counting on me... Takumi! Th-that wasn't enough...was it? To quell your hatred of me... Hit me again...my brother... Do what you need...to do...  The corpse of a previous boss is the final boss of the game. Not the murder king that you spent nearly the entire game dealing with in some fashion, which needed a stupid chair plan that basically destroyed all of Hoshido for.  FIRE EMBLEM FATES: CONQUEST
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Jun 12, 2017 03:57
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You know, having given more thought to how poorly done the story is while reading the thread, and the way you wrote FIRE EMBLEM FATES: CONQUEST at the end there..... FEDDOP, anyone?
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Jun 12, 2017 04:03
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Weeble posted:You know, having given more thought to how poorly done the story is while reading the thread, and the way you wrote FIRE EMBLEM FATES: CONQUEST at the end there..... Everybody betrayed me. I'm FEDDOP with this world!
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Jun 12, 2017 04:12
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Thing is, if they were trying to play Conquest off as siding with the bad guys, this almost makes sense as a final boss. You killed half their family, all their army, and destroyed their country, them coming back as a boss would work then. Maybe with a few years in between to explain them getting stronger all of a sudden. But considering the whole possession angle they've been playing up, I wouldn't be surprised if they just have them sweep the whole brutal invasion thing under the rug. Also doubt someone's going to kick them onto that throne so the final boss is at least a slime archer. Would have been kind of funny.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:14
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Weeble posted:You know, having given more thought to how poorly done the story is while reading the thread, and the way you wrote FIRE EMBLEM FATES: CONQUEST at the end there..... Now im imagining someone pouring over tables online trying to decide which woman is most deserving of marf santegalo.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:19
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I like the twist  . It's something that they had been building up to throughout both Birthright and Conquest.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:32
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One little detail I like is that Goo Garon's chest's face is the same as Garon's dragon head. Dragon Garon is just Goo Garon with a dragon coat of paint courtesy of the obligatory evil dragon god that they've been foreshadowing for two games.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:47
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Honestly Takumi being the final boss is pretty awesome because it's one of like ~3 times they've made a human the final boss. Awakening doesn't count.
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Jun 12, 2017 05:08
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So, now that we've seen more of how this kind of transformation works, it feels like Slime Garon is not Garon in much the same way Obi-wan Kenobi meant it when he said Darth Vader is not Anakin Skywalker. (Yeah, it's old news. So what?) It's the same physical body, severely warped by bad juju, and a personality that looks the same on the surface, with all the same knowledge and memories, but with something very different at the core that one could say has taken over from and killed the original person.
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Jun 12, 2017 05:08
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ajkalan posted:
Ha! Nice one!
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Jun 12, 2017 05:23
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Corrin's going to hug Takumi into not being dead anymore, isn't she?
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Jun 12, 2017 05:26
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