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ProfessorProf posted:
Involved is a decidedly ambiguous word. Does it mean actively involved, or that Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda had no causal connection to the murders? I guess it has to be the former. Everyone in the mansion must be causally involved because where they were effects where the killer(s) could go. If that's the case, I guess it doesn't rule out Erika's theory of Gohda letting in the killer(s), as long as Gohda didn't know of their plans.
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Jun 11, 2017 15:11
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CottonWolf posted:I guess it doesn't rule out Erika's theory of Gohda letting in the killer(s), as long as Gohda didn't know of their plans. If he did, he's intentionally lying/omitting the truth about it which doesn't sound like the behaviour of an uninvolved man.
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Jun 11, 2017 15:48
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Yeah. I'd missed that he specifically suggests that someone else might have let people in. But omission on account of guilt isn't impossible. If he let them in then retrospectively worked out what it'd lead to, he might be scared he'd be blamed. But yeah, I don't really buy that now. There's no reasonable reason not to say that he let people in if he wasn't involved.
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Jun 11, 2017 15:54
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On the other hand, if anyone was going to tell a lie to save face without considering how suspicious it'd look if his lie was found out, it'd be Gohda. Still, it's much more likely that one of the women opened the door. Hell, if Eva really did go to the rose garden to talk to George, she would have had to leave the door unlocked when she left.
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Jun 11, 2017 16:59
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Erika giving up the detective's authority has to be a piece of strategy. It only makes sense if she wants to deliberately make her own observations less reliable, like Battler did last episode.
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Jun 11, 2017 18:00
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Smug Battler is nice
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Jun 11, 2017 20:51
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idonotlikepeas posted:Erika giving up the detective's authority has to be a piece of strategy. It only makes sense if she wants to deliberately make her own observations less reliable, like Battler did last episode. Well if her plan is to claim that she is killer, and therefore the real Beatrice, that would certainly explain the wedding.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:16
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ZiegeDame posted:Well if her plan is to claim that she is killer, and therefore the real Beatrice, that would certainly explain the wedding. It is true that we had confirmation that only 4 people, and Erika, entered the rooms with the dead people. And that we have confirmation that 4 people were not involved in the murders, definitely not including Erika. But the problem there is that if the first 4 were not involved in the murders then they wouldn't have left living people in the rooms and screamed about them being dead. Unless it was a pretend thing like last time might have been, but there's no obvious person that's being framed this time unlike last time. Also, Rudolf, just what did you never get to tell Battler and Kyrie? That Battler was actually Kyrie's kid? Or what? Erika, you really should have let Dlanor keep going. You're very incompetent. As for ways the murders could have been done, aside from "not killed at all" and "killed by Erika after the room got opened", it's kind of tough. Stabbed in such a way that it wasn't lethal, then locked themselves in a room, then died later due to blood loss or poison are options, though in that scenario Rosa and Maria's corpses would have been very close together and there would have been a lot of screaming.
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Jun 11, 2017 23:11
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I notice that nowhere in there do we have confirmation that they are dead at this time, despite that being something Erika explicitly brought up last chapter. I find that quite interesting, especially since one specific difference between "Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda were not culprits" and Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda... were not involved in the murders of Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler is the fact that the latter is completely irrelevant if they're not dead. The fact that Erika both appears to have been the one that composed that list and the one that cuts it off discomforts me. Is it because the other pieces were made irrelevant? Thinking about it, we have confirmation that they were closed rooms, impossible to construct from the outside. That removes the possibility of them being false closed rooms. We have confirmation that only the victims were inside at the time of the deconstruction. That removes the possibility of someone hiding inside. We have confirmation that only Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Gohda, and Erika entered after the deconstruction of the closed rooms. That removes the possibility of someone sneaking in between the opening group and Erika. As far as I can tell, that removes most of our standard strategies, excepting the fact that we are unsure whether or not they're truly dead. If their death is confirmed, my next thought moves to poison. This may be difficult given Rosa and Maria's condition when they were found.
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Jun 11, 2017 23:55
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I suppose this would be the time to start figuring out how Kanon could have carried out these murders, but as has been pointed out we don't even have confirmation in red that anyone is actually dead. Which brings me to wondering, where the hell in Nanjo in all this? Normally when they find a bunch of bodies they'd call the doctor in to confirm their status. Not that we can trust any determination Nanjo gives, but it's still weird that he wasn't even called, and in fact wasn't even mentioned in this update. Where the hell has our doctor-conspirator gotten off to?
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Jun 12, 2017 00:17
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ZiegeDame posted:I suppose this would be the time to start figuring out how Kanon could have carried out these murders If we start with a culprit and try to figure out how that specific person did it, we're being Erika. Don't be Erika. So far, our categories of people who could have done it (if anything was, in fact, done) are the 4 guaranteed non-murderers, Erika, everyone in the other building who had a master key, and everyone in the other building who didn't have master key. We have nothing to differentiate any of the people from the other building who had a master key, so there's no way to differentiate between Genji, Kanon, Shanon, and Kumasawa. There's no guarantee that the people who didn't have a master key were innocent but it seems like they'd have needed help from someone with a master key or someone in the building. There's also the possibility that one of the alleged victims did it, and that some of them were dead and the murderer wasn't.
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Jun 12, 2017 00:37
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Something I've been wondering - why were they all so quick to assume Battler (and probably also Eva, Kyrie, and Natsuhi) were dead given the seeming lack of any easy-to-see cause of death? They see Battler and immediately think he's dead, but the profiles note that cause of death could not be determined.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:36
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Cyouni posted:Something I've been wondering - why were they all so quick to assume Battler (and probably also Eva, Kyrie, and Natsuhi) were dead given the seeming lack of any easy-to-see cause of death? They see Battler and immediately think he's dead, but the profiles note that cause of death could not be determined. And that Erika did not do a detailed examination.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:53
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MonsterEnvy posted:And that Erika did not do a detailed examination. Definitely, but even a non-detailed examination should be sufficient when Rudolf et al could tell Battler was dead at a glance. That it isn't says something fishy is going on around the discovery time.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:04
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It was notably a rule that no declaration of cause of death was made in the Question Arcs until the detective (Battler) observed the corpses. This was most obviously the case in Ep 4, but it's easy to miss in the LP format. Since this game lacks a proper detective, we won't be able to get a description of the state of the body, no matter how obvious it is.
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Jun 12, 2017 03:34
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Qrr posted:If we start with a culprit and try to figure out how that specific person did it, we're being Erika. Don't be Erika. I'm operating under the assumption that the various games are connected and that there's a point for playing all these games in a row. The thing that separates Kanon form the of the people with master keys is that I've already built a pretty robust argument that suggests he is the killer* in 4 previous games. If the games have any relation at all to each other, for my existing theory to hold up, it must also apply to this game. Therefore Kanon will also be the first suspect until such as time as he shows up dead with and actual body that could not possibly be faked. (*It should be noted that whether or not Kanon is also Shannon has no bearing on if Kanon is the killer) That being said, this doesn't prevent me from examining alternate possibilities if that's where the evidence leads. But while it may be beneficial to the anti-Fantasy side to be able to say "Any of these humans could have done it" that's really of no use for solving the Mystery. And as far as this game goes we simply don't have enough information to really get anywhere.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:04
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oath2order posted:It was notably a rule that no declaration of cause of death was made in the Question Arcs until the detective (Battler) observed the corpses. This was most obviously the case in Ep 4, but it's easy to miss in the LP format. Since this game lacks a proper detective, we won't be able to get a description of the state of the body, no matter how obvious it is. Did Battler ever get a detective declaration/authority? None of the factors that have been noted to apply based on that seem to have applied in the first four episodes, and Erika specifically noted that without detective authority she's playing on the same field as Battler was.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:53
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ZiegeDame posted:I'm operating under the assumption that the various games are connected and that there's a point for playing all these games in a row. The thing that separates Kanon form the of the people with master keys is that I've already built a pretty robust argument that suggests he is the killer* in 4 previous games. If the games have any relation at all to each other, for my existing theory to hold up, it must also apply to this game. Therefore Kanon will also be the first suspect until such as time as he shows up dead with and actual body that could not possibly be faked. Assuming that Kanon was a culprit in previous stories, let's say he had the capacity to kill, as people are wont to act as themselves, like you mentioned. But would you say that he's the only culprit this time? He seems a lot more open with Jessica, more straightforward with her. Do you think that he may have enlisted the others' help? Under the guise of liberating themselves from the obstacles that are in their way of love? Or maybe they joined in voluntarily, as we've seen George's and Jessica's willingness to kill before. The only question is Shannon, on the off-chance she's not an alter ego of Kanon or something. That's something I'll need to think about at another time.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:58
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Cyouni posted:Did Battler ever get a detective declaration/authority? None of the factors that have been noted to apply based on that seem to have applied in the first four episodes, and Erika specifically noted that without detective authority she's playing on the same field as Battler was. It's possible this is like how Battler's red truth that Natsushi didn't do it wasn't accepted last game, even though we the reader knew it was true because it was red. The detective is still the detective for our purposes on this, the second highest meta layer, but on the layers Erika exists on, the layers that can actually produce red truth for us, she lacks the authority to make her observations red, to be absolutely sure she didn't miss anything. Or to put it another way, Knox's 8th still applies. Probably. But we can't be sure. bman in 2288 posted:Assuming that Kanon was a culprit in previous stories, let's say he had the capacity to kill, as people are wont to act as themselves, like you mentioned. But would you say that he's the only culprit this time? He seems a lot more open with Jessica, more straightforward with her. Do you think that he may have enlisted the others' help? Under the guise of liberating themselves from the obstacles that are in their way of love? Or maybe they joined in voluntarily, as we've seen George's and Jessica's willingness to kill before. The only question is Shannon, on the off-chance she's not an alter ego of Kanon or something. That's something I'll need to think about at another time. Yeah, I'm making no assumptions at this juncture about who else might have killed in this game. As far as I'm concerned Shannon, George, Jessica, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are still suspects as well.
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Jun 12, 2017 05:16
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Cyouni posted:Did Battler ever get a detective declaration/authority? None of the factors that have been noted to apply based on that seem to have applied in the first four episodes, and Erika specifically noted that without detective authority she's playing on the same field as Battler was. Basically, as far as I know Battler didn't realize that the character he was playing as had supers so he didn't use them.
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Jun 12, 2017 05:23
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Cyouni posted:Did Battler ever get a detective declaration/authority? None of the factors that have been noted to apply based on that seem to have applied in the first four episodes, and Erika specifically noted that without detective authority she's playing on the same field as Battler was. Erika, though this is just my interpretation of what "authority" means, is kind of on the same field now. Anything that happens around her isn't an embellished scene, but she lacks the authority to say that she cannot be fooled by people playing dead. That's how she is now on the same level as Battler was in EP1-4.
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Jun 12, 2017 05:43
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 BGM: Apathy  "It feels strange. I used to think that the witch's side had such a huge advantage. But now that I'm on that side, I see that that's ridiculous. It's almost like that game where you stick knives in a barrel and try not to stab the mustache guy inside."From the perspective of the human side, it feels like trying to shoot at a target hidden by mist. But from the witch's side, a random shot might become fatal.  "...The old 'me' played games like that all the time." "Yeah, it's almost like Russian Roulette. Even so, you believed that I would eventually notice, and stretched those games out to the limit." "...It may be impudent of me to ask, but just what is it that you noticed, Battler-san? At the very end of your games with the old 'me'..."It was a strange question. Even though, in the past, Beato had always been the one posing it to Battler... Now that Battler had figured it out, Beato was the one asking him about it...  "Would you mind telling me what it is...?" "...Telling you would be... easy. But I don't want to tell you. I'm not trying to be mean. I just want... to believe in a miracle for a bit myself." "...A miracle...?"Yes, this was the single miracle seed that Battler had left behind. If Beato could remember a certain something without being told, that would prove that Beato had truly revived. So he wouldn't tell her. It was Battler's final seed... which existed because he still couldn't abandon his hopes that Beato would revive.  "If you can't tell me, then I won't ask. If I have displeased you, please forgive me..." "Don't worry about it. I'm just stubborn. "As she watched that sad smile, Beato's chest tightened. He was looking at her... and seeing the old her. Yes... I must become my former self... for his sake. My older sister who gets burned by spiderwebs, and I who don't, must become one. Surely, it's more useful to him if I go on a journey to find myself now... than if I simply watch over his game.  "How do you feel about this game? Do you think you can win?" "I intend to win. I'll win... and end this eternal torture, just like Beato wanted." "When it ends... what will happen to the world...?" "Who knows. I wonder. However, that is what we wished for. So, no matter what the result is, I'll accept it." "...What will happen to me...?"Beato was... uncertain. Even she was probably no more than a piece in this game. If the game ended, then would she, one who had been born out of that game's rules, disappear...?   "My... wish...?" "...The rest is a secret. I'll be waiting for the miracle... for you to remember all of that by yourself."After smiling bitterly for just a second, Battler laughed and told her not to worry. Apparently, it was best if she avoided talking to Battler about her previous self... "...Well then, I'll go check on my opponent for a bit. I can't wait to see what kind of twisted logic that idiot thinks up next." "The old Battler-san did a lot of that too. My favorite was the one from the first twilight of the 2nd game, when you said the culprit killed everyone by feeding them small bombs." "Aaaaahhh, the highlights of my dark past... Please forget that ever happened..." "Yes, I will try."Battler became a cloud of gold butterflies and disappeared into the darkness. Beato kept bowing until he disappeared completely... To fill in his place, a single gold butterfly appeared... and became Beatrice the Elder.  BGM: Cage "Yes. I want to know more about you. And... I want to know what the real me is like. I want to become like that." "Of course, I also want to know about my future self. Didn't we reveal everything about ourselves to each other for that purpose? However, we did not become one. I cannot understand what we must do to become our single self." "...What can we do to become one...?" "I have high hopes for the trials of Zepar and Furfur." "You mean the miracle of magic given to the victors?" "I wonder if that magical miracle means becoming one. I will find my true form. You will fulfill Battler's wishes. Battler will also be happy, and all of us will suddenly have what we want." "...This is a trial, right...?" "It means we cannot lose to the other two pairs." "...George-san and Shannon-san, Jessica-san and Kanon-san. I can only grasp happiness... by trampling over them..." "The conditions apply to all of us. If one of the others succeeds in love, the other two groups, including you, will be trampled over." "Tilted?" "Some people will find love, others won't. In that case, you can put those two groups on a scale. However, the scales for our trial have three plates, and two must lose for one to win... That seems horribly tilted..." "Who knows? It might mean that successful love is worth two destroyed loves. You're too insecure, little sister. If you can't put your desire to answer to Battler's expectations before your uncertainty of what happens to the losers, you won't be able to win anything." "...You're right. I won't give up our victory. I don't like doing this to the others, but there will be no hard feelings between us and them."If I do lose... I'll give my strongest blessings to whichever of the lovers wins. So, I'll fight with all my heart and soul, so that I have no lingering regrets... and I'll win that miracle of magic.  BGM: Sukashiyuri  "We started by testing the waters. Battler seemed pretty eager too."She had just come back from a fierce fight with Battler, where she had gathered information by making demands for the red text. It was the old, familiar kind of fight, reminiscent of the time that the red text had first appeared, or that the blue text had first been permitted...  "And the result...?" "First, in all cases, it was the victims themselves that constructed the closed rooms. Also, those closed rooms were perfectly preserved until Krauss's group broke them open. Also, I confirmed that during that period, all sorts of interference from the outside were impossible."Erika reported this proudly as though it had been a great battle, but Bernkastel looked bored as she listened. After looking at her blankly for a second, Lambdadelta spoke her opinions frankly.   "Wha... uh..."The victims had sealed the closed rooms themselves. And, that had been preserved until Krauss and the others had broken the closed rooms open. And, no one had been inside the closed rooms except for the victims. And, Krauss's group, the ones who had broken the room open, were not the culprits... In this way, she had managed to win several little red truths like these. Normally, simply collecting such vital information would have been enough. However, the master witch, tired with boredom, had expected a much more flashy, argument-winning victory instead of this bland result.  BGM: Fishy Aroma  "You mean Purupurupikopuyo?" "N, no, not that...! It's not impossible for certain well-known drugs, such as insulin, to bring about a temporary state that mimics death. Battler did not counter that with the red truth. In other words, my blue truth worked...! I... I think we've started with a victory."To sum up Erika's report, all she had done was listen to the red truths Battler had wanted her to hear. Only the information Battler had wanted out had been shown, and she hadn't been able to strike at any weak points. She was like a kid who had gone out shopping, then forgotten her job and only bought candy... ...However, this was all the players on the human side could do. Without the detective proclamation, she could only fight by collecting dull bits of information like that. However, her master had been expecting more than that sort of dull fight... So, she had tried to give her report energetically, to make it seem as though they were in a superior position... But no matter how much she tried, the cold expression of her master remained merciless...  "...Your blue truth worked...? If he didn't cut it down, it's probably just because it was too stupid. You call yourself a great detective with reasoning like that..." "I... I did try to examine the corpses with care, to the best of my abilities... However, I don't have the detective's authority, so we can't be certain..." "Wait a second, weren't you the one who decided not to make the detective proclamation? Didn't you say you wanted to raise the stakes to make up for your disgrace last time?" "...W, well..." "What's wrong? Are you saying you can't win against Battler without the detective's authority...?" "Th, that's not true, my master. I... I could easily defeat an incompetent like that, even without the detective's authority... It's just... this style of fighting is a little different from what I'm used to, and I haven't gotten the hang of it yet..."Personally, Erika was the sort of human who held a very large advantage. Her knowledge and powers of memory and insight were ahead of the pack, and most likely, no human could be more suitable for the role of detective than her.  In the witch's game, it's either 0 or 100. In other words, everything is either the red truth, or it isn't. If a normal human was worth a 10, her exceptional power would probably rate a 99. However, it could never be 100. Since it wasn't 100, it couldn't be absolutely certain. So it didn't count as red truth. For example, the examination of the corpses that Erika had worried over in the fight just now. If she had performed it with the detective's authority, she could have said with 100% certainty whether they were alive or dead. However, without the detective proclamation, it was 99%. There was a 1% chance that she made a mistake, and that overturned the foundation of the examination. Erika had gained the detective's authority and become the Witch of Truth because Bernkastel had supplemented her talent of 99 with an additional 1... Just because Bernkastel wouldn't give her that one, in the world of witches, Erika's 99 was treated exactly the same as zero... Even her great assistant Dlanor couldn't be fully used without a power of 100. When working under an Erika who had lost the detective's authority, Dlanor's red longsword lost its power. Dlanor was also irritated that she couldn't provide full assistance... She had tried several times to convince Erika to use the detective proclamation, but Erika had stubbornly refused each time...  BGM: None  "...Why not do it... if you want...?" "N... no."There was no need for anyone to explain... By now, it was clear that Erika hadn't abandoned the detective proclamation by her own will.  BGM: Hikari  "Yeah, pretty much. The games won't continue forever, and I've lost my bet with Bern. In this game, Battler will prove that he's reached the game's truth, and then Beato's game will be destroyed in a big victory for the human side. And a big victory for Bern too. Well, supposedly, but you look unsatisfied for some reason." "...Yeah, I'm not satisfied. I didn't want such a boring victory." "The victory you did want had Beato's game board being torn to bits and Beato's true, pathetic form exposed, humiliated, and trampled on. But this victory of Battler's isn't quite like that, is it...?" "...All this about love... and promises. To end the game quietly and let her sleep in peace? That sort of ending would make anyone vomit." "I didn't give Battler all that advice so that he could end things like that. I had his little sister turned to scrap meat behind his back. I had his parents and family killed horribly over and over again. That was all to spark a desire for revenge against Beato." "And now... what kind of ending is this...? Have I won? Of course not! Battler's gotten his hands on a victory that neither you nor I can stand. I had to withstand a staggering period of boredom just to come all the way out to this territory, just so that I could see Beatrice lamely and pathetically torn to bits. I didn't come here to sip from a rotten yogurt Fragment like this!" "Aw, your angry face is wonderful too, Bern. I see, so this is why you wanted to straighten things out for yourself at least once at the end." "It's all the fault of this moron piece screwing up all the time in the last game! Because of you, this game board that looked like it'd be entertaining for many thousand years... is all... wasted...!! Filth, trash, scum!!" "...M, my apologies, my master... I will definitely... bring you a victory, so please forgive me..." "If you couldn't win with the detective's authority in the last game, how do you expect to defeat Battler now that he's the Game Master...? You don't have a chance at winning even with the detective's authority. So why bother with it?" "I... uh..." "True, if you can't win anyway, then the detective proclamation isn't necessary. The lack will just make your loss all the more certain." "And therefore, if you manage to win in this even worse situation, that would be a miracle worthy of me. If and only if you can do that, I'll be able to forgive you." "Y, yes. I will surely... show you that miracle...!" "Like hell you can, scum." "All you can do is thoroughly expose your wretched self in a horrible punishment game, with your only weapon taken away from you... and even through it all, you'll still roll over playfully and beg to keep me entertained, scum." "...uu..." BGM: Rose Gold butterflies gathered in the darkness and took the shape of Battler. Though he had just arrived, he seemed to know that the mood was dark.   "It's just a rehash of the closed rooms Beato made in the past. I'll take that to be a compliment for Beato." "It seems your fight with Erika wasn't bad either. Think your serial murders will move along smoothly?" "...Who knows? My role isn't to carry out serial murders. It's to use that process to show you closed rooms that are impossible without magic, and thereby achieve victory for the witch side and prove that I have fully understood this game. No, there's one more thing." "What...?" "To settle things with Erika, after that evenly matched duel we acted out last time." "...Battler..." "Even... ly... matched...?"Bernkastel noticeably grimaced. Erika averted her eyes and hung her head, timidly... "I know what you're thinking. That wasn't a draw, we should have won easily so it counts as a loss." "Hey, it's not polite to eavesdrop." "...Look at a mirror. It's written all over your faces." "No way...! Where?! Hey, what's going on?! If you tell me it's written in ink only morons can't see, then death, death, super death for you!!"Lambdadelta pulled a mirror out of thin air, then looked at it and jumped around angrily. She was apparently pretending to be stupid in her own, special way.  "...Erika." "Wh, what is it?" "...Th, thanks." "What happened to Dlanor this time? Are you by yourself?" "...NO. I have been waiting HERE."Dlanor had been just standing around in reserve, hiding her presence in the dark shadows...  "Well, when she can't use her red longsword, Dlanor is just useless scum. There's no point having her around, so she's hanging back." "...All I can do now is record Lady Erika's REASONING." "Why won't you fight with her? Why can't you use that red longsword? Erika's reasoning... and your longsword. Those were strong because they worked together." "..."Dlanor didn't answer. She just glanced slightly at Bernkastel's expression. However, that glance was the same as a clear answer for Battler now. Battler fully realized the situation...  BGM: Soul of Soul "...Oho, I don't know what you're talking about." "This fight is between me and Erika. We're going to fight with all we've got. That way, we'll be able to accept it whether we win or lose. There's no need for a mastermind behind the scenes like you." "...Come now, I'm no mastermind. I'm just a theatergoer trying to relieve her boredom." "A theatergoer is someone who sits quietly in the stands and watches. That's not what we call someone who jeers at the stage and threatens or manipulates the performers." "Sorry for being an ill-mannered audience. You might not know it, but I've already paid a huge admission fee to watch this play. Sorry, but I intend to enjoy it until I get my money's worth." "If you get in the way of the game's progression, I can use my authority as the Game Master to boot you out of this game." "If you want to, go ahead. If you chase me out, then I'll head back with my piece, Erika. This game will be cancelled, and you won't be able to prove that you've reached the truth. A theatergoer is an observer. A truth with no observers is the same as an illusion. You need a theatergoer as a witness until Beato's game ends." "...Our truth only needs to pass between the two of us! If you get in the way any further, I will boot you out by force. Then you can writhe around in boredom for a few centuries until you find another way to kill time." "Then why don't I?! Erika, this game is over! Good work. You were completely useless. You weren't able to overturn the dishonor of your loss, so as promised, I'll throw you into the worst Fragment, I'll toss you into the depths of oblivion with the empty popcorn buckets!!" "M, my master...! I will... I will win... I'll win no matter what...!! So please, let me fight Battler until the end...!! I don't... want to lose... and get thrown in the d... depths of oblivion... *hic*...*hic*..." "...You know I want to watch until the end, right? But Battler says he'll toss me out. Hey, what'll you do, Lambda?!" "Well, I realize you've been irritated since the last game, Bern, but calm down a bit. And Battler, don't provoke Bern so much. This kid can't control her emotions sometimes." Bernkastel, who, at one point in time, never showed any expressions at all, was now twisting her face into all kinds of displeased and ugly shapes. When Lambdadelta made fun of that, Bernkastel clicked her tongue and looked away. As they say, nothing can stop poison but poison. Apparently, Lambdadelta was the only one who could rein Bernkastel in. "...Erika, you want to fight Battler, clear your name, and get Bern back into a good mood, right?" "Y, yes..." "Battler, you want to quickly and neatly end this 'final game' so that you can prove that you've found the truth, right?" "...Yeah. This is a face-off between me and Erika. I won't let anyone get in my way, but I won't let anyone get in Erika's way either." "...B, Battler..." "If both of them wish to fight, then that should be respected. Leave Bern to me. I'm the only one in the world who can calm that kid when she gets into a bad mood." "...You're the same sort as her, but at least you can be reasonable." "...You shouldn't underestimate me. I just like seeing Bern grimace. That's why I've taken a liking to this game of yours. If you think I'm easy to handle, you're apt to get burned, okay...?" "...Hmph." "Dlanor can't use her red longsword because the detective proclamation hasn't been made. If Erika makes that, she'll regain her power right away. Right?" "...YES. When that happens, forgive ME." "Erika." "What...?" BGM: About Face "...No." "Do you really think you can beat me as I am now without the detective's authority?" "...I... I can win..." "...Lord BATTLER. Lady Erika is herself a PIECE. She cannot disobey her master's orders. All she can do is gather the power she has... and fight for SURVIVAL." "And Dlanor, your power can't be used at all without the detective proclamation?" "...I need permission before unsheathing the 'red KEY'. One form of that permission is the detective PROCLAMATION." "Are there ways of getting that permission besides the detective proclamation?" "Wh, what are you saying...?! I, if you're doing this out of pity for me, that's none of your business!" "Quiet. You're so flimsy by yourself that it's boring. Be quiet, detective who isn't a detective." "...Gah..." "The 'red key' is extremely close to the red TRUTH. If and only if I am given a 'truth', I am permitted to draw my sword for items that pertain to IT." "What do you mean by a 'truth'...?" "...For example, there are Lady Erika's duct tape SEALS." "Lady Bernkastel has already acknowledged that those seals are equivalent in value to the red TRUTH. Therefore, I am permitted to draw the red key only for truths pertaining to those SEALS." "Those caused me a lot of trouble last time, so I had all the sticky duct tape removed from the game board this time around." "...A splendid MOVE." "...Erika was proud to be able to call herself the detective, wasn't she?" "YES... Though her only goal was to irresponsibly solve riddles, it was a matter of pride for HER." "Then, she must really be suffering now that she can't make that proclamation." "...Only she could tell you THAT." "..."Battler took a deep breath, then hung his head in thought for a time. Erika was his enemy, but she was the player on the human side, and without her, there would be no game. It had been the same way with the old Beato. Battler had one-sidedly viewed Beato as the enemy. However, though Beato had thought of him as the opposing player, she hadn't personally considered him an enemy. In accordance with the rules, I must fight my rival ruthlessly. However, that doesn't mean I need to hate Erika herself. ...I won't misunderstand Beato's game. "Erika. It's up to you whether you make the detective proclamation. In that case, go and fight just with your power as a human." "I've been prepared to do that from the beginning...!" "However, you have talented allies. Dlanor, Gertrude, and Cornelia. You aren't alone. You have allies." "Yeah, but they're unreliable, powerless, and useless scum." "Dlanor. Just like I was supported by Virgilia and Ronove in the past, Erika needs support as well. I know from repeated experience that playing for the human side is tough." "...YES. I will assist her with all the power I POSSESS." "Understood." "Know that it is our job." "Hmph. And you can't even use the red truth!" "Erika. I will give power, not to you, but to your allies." "Huh?! Wh, what do you think you're doing...?! I'd rather die than receive your pity!!" To fully seal one room, multiple seals are needed to cover all the doors and windows. If he had just said three seals, it would only be able to fully seal up one room at best. So, Battler was generous and measured them by room instead of by seal... "...Lord BATTLER..." "As the Game Master, I also acknowledge that these seals have the same effect as the red truth. This way, you'll also be able to wield that red longsword in a fight surrounding those. Right...?" "...YES... But... are you CERTAIN?" "Winning against Erika when she's less than a detective is hardly a victory. If Erika's upping the stakes, then I should have the right to do the same." "Whew, what a man! Aren't you lucky, Erika?! Now you can use a bit of red without making the detective proclamation and irritating your master." "...Y, you'll regret this... I'll use these three seals... and kill you... no matter what...!" "Sounds great. Come and kill me." "...Gah... nnnn..."Though it was only for three rooms, it was a red truth that Erika would have killed for. Now, she finally had enough leeway to fight as she pleased. She ground her teeth at being pitied by Battler, but her tears were not those of shame.  Erika had borrowed duct tape from Kumasawa to make seals with. However, Battler had made it so that those were not sticky... If he made it so that there never was any problem with the stickiness of that duct tape, the transition could be made smoothly. "Sure, that's fine. I'll rewrite the tale. The duct tape that Erika received from Kumasawa-san late at night on the first day was sticky, but there was only enough left to use on three rooms. I'll apply that from here on out." "UNDERSTOOD. Lady Erika will also retroactively adjust her movements, starting before the discovery of the first twilight and taking into account that the application of this privilege is now POSSIBLE. As soon as these changes affect the progression of the game, they will be reported to the Game MASTER." "...Letting you do it retroactively, even though you know which rooms the crime will occur in... That gives you a pretty big advantage. You won't have to waste tape on other rooms." "It seems you've grown quite arrogant since becoming Game Master. Isn't it fun? to give out charity to your pathetic opponents?" "Quiet. And don't misunderstand. I'm not being arrogant or easy on her. Erika, use this weapon and come at me with all you've got. Then I will crush you with all I've got. So, hold your head up high and use those three. That is all."Battler made to leave the room with a flick of his cape. As he did, he thought he heard Erika let out a strained voice calling him to a stop. "...What is it?" "..." "If you have no business with me, I'm going. Make sure you talk with Dlanor. Don't listen to those obnoxious witches, whatever they tell you. As long as I'm on this game board, I won't let them do whatever they please." "..." "...Thank you... I'll... fight with all I've got... I'll come at you with all my strength... so... I'll defeat you no matter what... So, if you do win against me... please crush me with all your strength. *hic*... Please... don't leave... a scrap behind... *hic*...!" "...Understood. And don't you go easy on me. This is the final game. I'm playing to prove to Beato that I've reached the truth. By now, who wins and who loses doesn't affect that goal. So, I just want to accept you as a rival and settle this. In the game, let us suspect each other over everything as enemies. But as fellow players, let's trust each other. That's how this game is supposed to be played." "...Yes... Thank you... Thank you... uuuuuu..."
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Jun 12, 2017 13:25
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Battler, what the gently caress are you doing?
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Jun 12, 2017 16:08
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resurgam40 posted:Battler, what the gently caress are you doing? nice post/av combo
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Jun 12, 2017 16:20
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Battler is a good boy and I love him
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Jun 12, 2017 16:56
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Good boy or not, you'd think he'd spent enough time amongst emotional manipulators to be at least a little critical of any sort of song and dance to earn a little bit of power. Your "lovely boy" just gave a self proclaimed intellectual rapist the means to gently caress him over yet again, because the Witches were a little mean... I hope he doesn't come to regret it.
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Jun 12, 2017 17:04
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Oh Battler-kun  He just can't help swooping in to help a(n apparent) damsel in distress, even if 12 hours ago that damsel was taking sadistic pleasure out of proving to a 9 year old that Santa isn't real. He's his father's son for sure. Incidentally, I'm expecting the rest of this episode to really drive home that the women are the real brains of the Ushiromiya family.
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Jun 12, 2017 17:12
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resurgam40 posted:Good boy or not, you'd think he'd spent enough time amongst emotional manipulators to be at least a little critical of any sort of song and dance to earn a little bit of power. Your "lovely boy" just gave a self proclaimed intellectual rapist the means to gently caress him over yet again, because the Witches were a little mean... I hope he doesn't come to regret it. If the protagonist isn't painfully naive, how will the audience be able to self-insert through him?! I would like to read it more charitably as the relationship between an abused person (Battler) and his abusers (basically everyone else except Ange), but the narrative hasn't really played him up as someone who suffered much abuse in any form before the events on
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Jun 12, 2017 17:16
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battler just has lots of love and without love, it can't be seen dammit!! also he just wants a good game and it ain't fun if Erika is sobbing and whining all game.
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Jun 12, 2017 17:19
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resurgam40 posted:Battler, what the gently caress are you doing? How beautiful. ZiegeDame posted:Incidentally, I'm expecting the rest of this episode to really drive home that the women are the real brains of the Ushiromiya family. Well let's see. We have Krauss/Natsuhi, which doesn't even need to be said. Eva/Hideyoshi, which I'm decently sure we can hand to Eva. Rudolf/Kyrie, and we've had it pounded in that Kyrie's the smarter one of the pair. So, yes. Let's see the red we have confirmed: "First, in all cases, it was the victims themselves that constructed the closed rooms. Also, those closed rooms were perfectly preserved until Krauss's group broke them open. Also, I confirmed that during that period, all sorts of interference from the outside were impossible." Both things I noted - faked deaths and death by poison - are still viable. Of these three pieces of information, none add anything of value. Assuming no secret doors or anything, the first has to be true from what we already know. The second, again, is assumed by default. The third, again, is implied by the definition of a closed room. I'd laugh if Erika just seals a room with Battler in it, which leads to the prologue of this game that we saw. Also, apparently the Decalogue weapon is powered by Detective Authority, but outside the game we can still apply its effects by virtue of it being Beatrice's game.
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Jun 12, 2017 17:23
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Cyouni posted:
Rosa's boyfriend may be the smartest character in the game for looking at his potential inlaws and running for the hills.
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Jun 12, 2017 17:46
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Cyouni posted:Well let's see. We have Krauss/Natsuhi, which doesn't even need to be said. Eva/Hideyoshi, which I'm decently sure we can hand to Eva. Rudolf/Kyrie, and we've had it pounded in that Kyrie's the smarter one of the pair. So, yes. I'm saying even Natsushi or Rosa has any of the men beat. After all, Natsushi orchestrated the plan that kept Kinzo's death secret for almost two years, and Rosa managed to solve the riddle of the epitaph only a few minutes behind Eva.
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Jun 12, 2017 18:00
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ZiegeDame posted:I'm saying even Natsushi or Rosa has any of the men beat. After all, Natsushi orchestrated the plan that kept Kinzo's death secret for almost two years, and Rosa managed to solve the riddle of the epitaph only a few minutes behind Eva. Eh, "2 years" is really like 6 days because it seems like they only visit for the family conference. Weekend at Bernies pulled that off. As for Battler giving Erika an advantage - we have to wonder what Battler is trying to accomplish. His primary goal seems to be to get Beato to remember - I'm not sure how much he cares about winning the game. Quite possibly he thinks that if Erika does better then Beato will be more likely to remember. The retroactive room seals are weird, though. It could already have been a solid advantage if she only had them going forward.
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Jun 12, 2017 19:48
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ZiegeDame posted:I'm saying even Natsushi or Rosa has any of the men beat. After all, Natsushi orchestrated the plan that kept Kinzo's death secret for almost two years, and Rosa managed to solve the riddle of the epitaph only a few minutes behind Eva. The women are deffo the main characters in Umineko Battler is just around for them to kick the poo poo out of
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Jun 12, 2017 20:26
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ProfessorProf posted:Battler took a deep breath, then hung his head in thought for a time. Erika was his enemy, but she was the player on the human side, and without her, there would be no game. It had been the same way with the old Beato. Battler had one-sidedly viewed Beato as the enemy. However, though Beato had thought of him as the opposing player, she hadn't personally considered him an enemy. In accordance with the rules, I must fight my rival ruthlessly. However, that doesn't mean I need to hate Erika herself. I believe this part is very important. It gives a slight insight into what understanding Beato's game actually entails, namely that it involves a certain attitude toward the person occupying the position contrary to yours within the game's structure. Given that the game consists in a confrontation between two opposing interpretations that continuously influence one another, it is probably safe to say that achieving any sort of victory requires a certain reciprocity between the players (not too different from how a game of chess only yields a victory deserving of the name if both players actually think about their moves). Remember that Beato also gave Battler tools to use against her - most importantly the Blue Truth. However, Battler used those tools to simply destroy Beato without understanding her, achieving something that looked like a victory but really wasn't (one could say that he was not actually acting as the player on the side of mystery, but in a crude anti-fantasy manner without a real position of his own). In a way, he is now doing the same thing for Erika that Beato did for him - or trying to imitate Beato in an effort to not misunderstand her; that remains to be seen. So, to actually pull this back to the discussion at hand: I think if (or rather: when) Battler suffers negative consequences from this, it will not be an accident, but a consequence of him having understood how to play this game. Whether he's really prepared for those consequences is another matter; this is still Battler, after all.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:10
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Carpator Diei posted:I believe this part is very important. It gives a slight insight into what understanding Beato's game actually entails, namely that it involves a certain attitude toward the person occupying the position contrary to yours within the game's structure. Given that the game consists in a confrontation between two opposing interpretations that continuously influence one another, it is probably safe to say that achieving any sort of victory requires a certain reciprocity between the players (not too different from how a game of chess only yields a victory deserving of the name if both players actually think about their moves). One thing that came up a lot earlier is really that despite her stated goal being victory over anti-fantasy, victory for Beato would truly be something more to the effect of conveying some sort of message to Battler. What that message might be I'm not 100% sure, but we can suppose it's related to his broken promise from six years ago. However, just as you need two people to form a dialogue, if Battler is completely shut down, then it's impossible for him to receive any message. So in order for Beato to achieve her actual goal, pure victory needs to be set aside. You can see this in the end to episode 3 in particular. Similarly, in order to prove he understands Beato's game, Battler theoretically should be operating under the same constraints. One other thing I've been considering as I reread episode 2 is Beatrice herself. It's already been noted how completely different Shannon's Beatrice and Kanon's Beatrice are. Now that we've hit episode 6, we're given two Beatrices, the Battler-loving one and the ruler of Rokkenjima's night. I wonder if that's supposed to be taken literally, and Beatrice is a thing shared between two people. Something split between two people that becomes "Beatrice" when those two parts are put together.
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Jun 12, 2017 22:20
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resurgam40 posted:Good boy or not, you'd think he'd spent enough time amongst emotional manipulators to be at least a little critical of any sort of song and dance to earn a little bit of power. Your "lovely boy" just gave a self proclaimed intellectual rapist the means to gently caress him over yet again, because the Witches were a little mean... I hope he doesn't come to regret it.  Yeah, I think he will.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:40
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kinkshaming erika for shame
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Jun 13, 2017 00:47
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ITT post your BatoEri fic recs.
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Jun 13, 2017 02:22
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witchcore ricepunk posted:
Looks like a HAPPY END to me
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Jun 13, 2017 02:46
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