D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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clusterfuck: Feb 6, 2004

Elendil004 posted:

Curious what your houserules are.

The cantrips one is probably going to sound terrible and grognard to many of you but as myself and the other guy DMing initially hadn't played since 1st edition, neither of us liked the idea of unlimited cantrips. So cantrips are limited per short rest to spellcasting ability modifier plus number of known cantrips - so if you know 2 cantrips and have +2 modifier you can cast 4 cantrips per short rest.

For levelling we are doing xp, when you level you get an Insight check when you long rest - you get whatever your Insight check modifier is plus your primary stat modifier. The check represents how well you integrated what you needed to learn in order to level. If you fail the check you need to stop and train for a number of days equal to the difference between the DC and the failed roll. The table is balanced so at worst it might be 4 days at low level. At high level it might be around 15 days. This came about to work with this frontier type campaign where the party is never in a town. Again though it's informed by 1st edition where you have to train for days and pay money to a trainer, I didn't want that but I didn't want instant levelling either. You can use an Inspiration point to roll at advantage but you can't use Bless or other magical assists as the check represents a long period of time. So far by 4th level only one PC has failed and had to train, our Wizard for two days. The guy playing that Wizard has criticized this houserule as it favours Wisdom based characters so heavily, which is true, but Insight seems a natural fit and I disagreed that levelling ought to be equal chance for everybody.

For multiclassing, characters don't need to find a trainer if a member of the party is of the class they want to dip. This is a non issue in effect as the players just ask if they're keen on multiclassing and we'll figure it out.

Crit hits and fails- for a while I used some tables I'd found and modified but I've dropped those for now as I wanted to speed up combat and digging out tables can be a time waste. I need to streamline my DM kit again so maybe it'll come back then.

I did a favour for our Ranger Beast Master and not only converted to the new version but allowed her to take 3rd level Hunter (she took Colossus Slayer) as well as Beast Master. At 7th, 11th and 15th level she has to choose between Hunter ability or Beast Master ability. I found even the improved Beast Master abilities weak and disappointing, compared to what other classes get. The worst aspect of Beast Master is using an action to command it to attack. Yet, if you are incapacitated or absent the beast will protect you or itself on it's own. Worst rule in the books. That player gave Beast Master a red hot go from an RP perspective and nearly multiclassed to Rogue but has instead stuck with Ranger since the change.

I've introduced Beyond Damage Dice but the players haven't really looked hard at it yet. Given at 4th level they've just had a lot of recent choices in new classes, new feats and new spells it's all a bit information overload.

That's about it. I do very minimal resource management on stuff like food and encumbrance. I just let them know in advance they'll need to think about it if they're running low. On material components I'm rolling with the idea of being fuzzy unless a component has a gold piece value, in which case it's real and they need to plan. Not yet an issue at 4th level.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 00:51

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# ? May 28, 2024 09:03

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

clusterfuck posted:

The cantrips one is probably going to sound terrible and grognard to many of you but as myself and the other guy DMing initially hadn't played since 1st edition, neither of us liked the idea of unlimited cantrips. So cantrips are limited per short rest to spellcasting ability modifier plus number of known cantrips - so if you know 2 cantrips and have +2 modifier you can cast 4 cantrips per short rest.

For levelling we are doing xp, when you level you get an Insight check when you long rest - you get whatever your Insight check modifier is plus your primary stat modifier. The check represents how well you integrated what you needed to learn in order to level. If you fail the check you need to stop and train for a number of days equal to the difference between the DC and the failed roll. The table is balanced so at worst it might be 4 days at low level. At high level it might be around 15 days. This came about to work with this frontier type campaign where the party is never in a town. Again though it's informed by 1st edition where you have to train for days and pay money to a trainer, I didn't want that but I didn't want instant levelling either. You can use an Inspiration point to roll at advantage but you can't use Bless or other magical assists as the check represents a long period of time. So far by 4th level only one PC has failed and had to train, our Wizard for two days. The guy playing that Wizard has criticized this houserule as it favours Wisdom based characters so heavily, which is true, but Insight seems a natural fit and I disagreed that levelling ought to be equal chance for everybody.

For multiclassing, characters don't need to find a trainer if a member of the party is of the class they want to dip. This is a non issue in effect as the players just ask if they're keen on multiclassing and we'll figure it out.

Crit hits and fails- for a while I used some tables I'd found and modified but I've dropped those for now as I wanted to speed up combat and digging out tables can be a time waste. I need to streamline my DM kit again so maybe it'll come back then.

I did a favour for our Ranger Beast Master and not only converted to the new version but allowed her to take 3rd level Hunter (she took Colossus Slayer) as well as Beast Master. At 7th, 11th and 15th level she has to choose between Hunter ability or Beast Master ability. I found even the improved Beast Master abilities weak and disappointing, compared to what other classes get. The worst aspect of Beast Master is using an action to command it to attack. Yet, if you are incapacitated or absent the beast will protect you or itself on it's own. Worst rule in the books. That player gave Beast Master a red hot go from an RP perspective and nearly multiclassed to Rogue but has instead stuck with Ranger since the change.

I've introduced Beyond Damage Dice but the players haven't really looked hard at it yet. Given at 4th level they've just had a lot of recent choices in new classes, new feats and new spells it's all a bit information overload.

That's about it. I do very minimal resource management on stuff like food and encumbrance. I just let them know in advance they'll need to think about it if they're running low. On material components I'm rolling with the idea of being fuzzy unless a component has a gold piece value, in which case it's real and they need to plan. Not yet an issue at 4th level.

Username makes the post.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:05

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

The levelling/training thing isn't something I'd bother with outside of Hackmaster, but whatever floats your boat. I mean, it's not something I'd do in D&D but I can see why people like it.

But

clusterfuck posted:

The cantrips one is probably going to sound terrible and grognard to many of you but as myself and the other guy DMing initially hadn't played since 1st edition, neither of us liked the idea of unlimited cantrips. So cantrips are limited per short rest to spellcasting ability modifier plus number of known cantrips - so if you know 2 cantrips and have +2 modifier you can cast 4 cantrips per short rest.

I'd really like more of an explanation for this than "I didn't like the idea", because... why would you ever do this? Did you try it as-written first and have a problem? This is a major change that affects some classes way more than others.

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jun 13, 2017

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:10

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

My favorite is how the cantrips thing completely hamstrings casters and in particular the Warlock class as a whole.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:10

Dameius: Apr 3, 2006

Why do you disagree with the idea that everyone deserves an equal chance of leveling?

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:13

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Dameius posted:

Why do you disagree with the idea that everyone deserves an equal chance of leveling?

Honestly, if you're doing a hex/sandbox kinda thing, it can be fun if the rest of the game supports it.

I'm defintiely not a fan of this in 5th ed D&D, but including a variable for how much it costs to level up, how long it takes to level up, and how well you level up can be pretty fun in the right sort of game. Like, gently caress if I know how clusterfuck's D&D game actually plays, but it could work well for them.

By "how well" you level up, I don't mean like "did you get all your class abilities y/n"! In Hackmaster how much you spent on a teacher affects how much your noncombat skills can go up, what extra bonus stuff you can learn, maybe some of the teacher's Fame rubs off on you, etc. It can also do all kinds of other stuff, like you could make different contacts or maybe get a temporary bonus to something if you learn very well from a very good teacher. The whole thing works because it interacts with lots of the game's subsystems and also because if you spend the average amount on an average teacher or school, there's no chance of doing worse than baseline - basically, you can pay extra for some benefits, or if you're somehow completely out of money it could become a plot point about how the gently caress you're gonna find the money so you don't have to attend Honest Zekhim's School Of Valiant Heroes instead of the fighter's guild workshop you usually use.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:22

8one6: May 20, 2012; When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!

clusterfuck posted:

The cantrips one is probably going to sound terrible and grognard to many of you but as myself and the other guy DMing initially hadn't played since 1st edition, neither of us liked the idea of unlimited cantrips. So cantrips are limited per short rest to spellcasting ability modifier plus number of known cantrips - so if you know 2 cantrips and have +2 modifier you can cast 4 cantrips per short rest.

Well, looks like it royally sucks to play a warlock in your game.

quote:

For levelling we are doing xp, when you level you get an Insight check when you long rest - you get whatever your Insight check modifier is plus your primary stat modifier. The check represents how well you integrated what you needed to learn in order to level. If you fail the check you need to stop and train ...

And I'm out.

The first GM I played with really broke my tolerance for arbitrary poo poo like this. You're group probably has fun, but...

quote:

...The guy playing that Wizard has criticized this houserule as it favours Wisdom based characters so heavily, which is true...

...you acknowledge that's uneven and unfair and...

quote:

... I disagreed that levelling ought to be equal chance for everybody.

... this sets off my "No gaming is better than bad gaming" radar something fierce.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:32

kingcom: Jun 23, 2012

clusterfuck posted:

The cantrips one is probably going to sound terrible and grognard to many of you but as myself and the other guy DMing initially hadn't played since 1st edition, neither of us liked the idea of unlimited cantrips. So cantrips are limited per short rest to spellcasting ability modifier plus number of known cantrips - so if you know 2 cantrips and have +2 modifier you can cast 4 cantrips per short rest.

For levelling we are doing xp, when you level you get an Insight check when you long rest - you get whatever your Insight check modifier is plus your primary stat modifier. The check represents how well you integrated what you needed to learn in order to level. If you fail the check you need to stop and train for a number of days equal to the difference between the DC and the failed roll. The table is balanced so at worst it might be 4 days at low level. At high level it might be around 15 days. This came about to work with this frontier type campaign where the party is never in a town. Again though it's informed by 1st edition where you have to train for days and pay money to a trainer, I didn't want that but I didn't want instant levelling either. You can use an Inspiration point to roll at advantage but you can't use Bless or other magical assists as the check represents a long period of time. So far by 4th level only one PC has failed and had to train, our Wizard for two days. The guy playing that Wizard has criticized this houserule as it favours Wisdom based characters so heavily, which is true, but Insight seems a natural fit and I disagreed that levelling ought to be equal chance for everybody.

For multiclassing, characters don't need to find a trainer if a member of the party is of the class they want to dip. This is a non issue in effect as the players just ask if they're keen on multiclassing and we'll figure it out.

Crit hits and fails- for a while I used some tables I'd found and modified but I've dropped those for now as I wanted to speed up combat and digging out tables can be a time waste. I need to streamline my DM kit again so maybe it'll come back then.

I did a favour for our Ranger Beast Master and not only converted to the new version but allowed her to take 3rd level Hunter (she took Colossus Slayer) as well as Beast Master. At 7th, 11th and 15th level she has to choose between Hunter ability or Beast Master ability. I found even the improved Beast Master abilities weak and disappointing, compared to what other classes get. The worst aspect of Beast Master is using an action to command it to attack. Yet, if you are incapacitated or absent the beast will protect you or itself on it's own. Worst rule in the books. That player gave Beast Master a red hot go from an RP perspective and nearly multiclassed to Rogue but has instead stuck with Ranger since the change.

I've introduced Beyond Damage Dice but the players haven't really looked hard at it yet. Given at 4th level they've just had a lot of recent choices in new classes, new feats and new spells it's all a bit information overload.

That's about it. I do very minimal resource management on stuff like food and encumbrance. I just let them know in advance they'll need to think about it if they're running low. On material components I'm rolling with the idea of being fuzzy unless a component has a gold piece value, in which case it's real and they need to plan. Not yet an issue at 4th level.

It's times like this I wish we had grognards.txt back just for a little bit. I know you and I threw shade majorly at eachother but man, these rules are something else dude. You even recognize there are issues and you still use them? I would refuse to play just from 1 and 2 alone.

EDIT: Why?

kingcom fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jun 13, 2017

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:34

slap me and kiss me: Apr 1, 2008; You best protect ya neck

No Steven, you don't get to have fun because it's not realistic. You have to earn it via this fickle die.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:36

Caphi: Jan 6, 2012; INCREDIBLE

I feel like they know the leveling rule sucks because they immediately qualified that in playtests it rarely affects anybody so it's fine.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:37

mango sentinel: Jan 5, 2001; by sebmojo

clusterfuck posted:

The cantrips one is probably going to sound terrible and grognard to many of you but as myself and the other guy DMing initially hadn't played since 1st edition, neither of us liked the idea of unlimited cantrips. So cantrips are limited per short rest to spellcasting ability modifier plus number of known cantrips - so if you know 2 cantrips and have +2 modifier you can cast 4 cantrips per short rest.

For levelling we are doing xp, when you level you get an Insight check when you long rest - you get whatever your Insight check modifier is plus your primary stat modifier. The check represents how well you integrated what you needed to learn in order to level. If you fail the check you need to stop and train for a number of days equal to the difference between the DC and the failed roll. The table is balanced so at worst it might be 4 days at low level. At high level it might be around 15 days. This came about to work with this frontier type campaign where the party is never in a town. Again though it's informed by 1st edition where you have to train for days and pay money to a trainer, I didn't want that but I didn't want instant levelling either. You can use an Inspiration point to roll at advantage but you can't use Bless or other magical assists as the check represents a long period of time. So far by 4th level only one PC has failed and had to train, our Wizard for two days. The guy playing that Wizard has criticized this houserule as it favours Wisdom based characters so heavily, which is true, but Insight seems a natural fit and I disagreed that levelling ought to be equal chance for everybody.

For multiclassing, characters don't need to find a trainer if a member of the party is of the class they want to dip. This is a non issue in effect as the players just ask if they're keen on multiclassing and we'll figure it out.

Crit hits and fails- for a while I used some tables I'd found and modified but I've dropped those for now as I wanted to speed up combat and digging out tables can be a time waste. I need to streamline my DM kit again so maybe it'll come back then.

I did a favour for our Ranger Beast Master and not only converted to the new version but allowed her to take 3rd level Hunter (she took Colossus Slayer) as well as Beast Master. At 7th, 11th and 15th level she has to choose between Hunter ability or Beast Master ability. I found even the improved Beast Master abilities weak and disappointing, compared to what other classes get. The worst aspect of Beast Master is using an action to command it to attack. Yet, if you are incapacitated or absent the beast will protect you or itself on it's own. Worst rule in the books. That player gave Beast Master a red hot go from an RP perspective and nearly multiclassed to Rogue but has instead stuck with Ranger since the change.

I've introduced Beyond Damage Dice but the players haven't really looked hard at it yet. Given at 4th level they've just had a lot of recent choices in new classes, new feats and new spells it's all a bit information overload.

That's about it. I do very minimal resource management on stuff like food and encumbrance. I just let them know in advance they'll need to think about it if they're running low. On material components I'm rolling with the idea of being fuzzy unless a component has a gold piece value, in which case it's real and they need to plan. Not yet an issue at 4th level.

Yikes

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:38

Dameius: Apr 3, 2006

AlphaDog posted:

Stuff

Sure, but in context he has created a system where non wisdom characters get hosed by the process, which he acknowledges, a non wisdom PC pointed it out and said all characters should get equal chance at engaging the system fairly and he said he disagreed with that statement/sentiment. I'd like to hear from him why.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:53

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Dameius posted:

Sure, but in context he has created a system where non wisdom characters get hosed by the process, which he acknowledges, a non wisdom PC pointed it out and said all characters should get equal chance at engaging the system fairly and he said he disagreed with that statement/sentiment. I'd like to hear from him why.

I was pointing out how a similar thing can work and can be fun. You're right in that tying it all to one check based on one attribute is a pretty bad way of doing it.

If I had to include something like that, I'd base the check on the character's highest proficient save. (Calling back to the "+10%xp for >X in your primarary attribute" thing in earlier versions).

e: To be clear, I don't hate the idea of "you rolled low, lose a couple of days levelling" in a sandbox game, but I don't like basing it on one attribute because why would you do that, you're literally saying that it's harder to learn to fighter if your cleric number is low.

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jun 13, 2017

# ? Jun 13, 2017 02:29

Elendil004: Mar 22, 2003; The prognosis
is not good.

I am not sorry I asked this is great.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 02:31

kingcom: Jun 23, 2012

Elendil004 posted:

I am not sorry I asked this is great.

Yeah its uh a question with answers I was not expecting. The post is so dense, every sentence has so much going on. I need to break down just the first paragraph.

clusterfuck posted:

So cantrips are limited per short rest to spellcasting ability modifier plus number of known cantrips - so if you know 2 cantrips and have +2 modifier you can cast 4 cantrips per short rest.

So you limited cantrips to to Spellcasting Modifier + Number of Cantrips. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by Spellcasting Modifier so I'm going to assume you mean Proficiency + Stat (unless your saying other items/features/etc that increase this modifier also increases this number too but not relevant to a 1st level character either way). So a first level wizard has 8 cantrips (3 known, 5 from a mod if you have 16 in your casting stat). So you reduce cantrips from unlimited to 8 (with very little increase at later levels obviously). What does this mechanically accomplish aside from creating circumstances where the wizard will often have little to do in a fight without burning their remaining cantrips. Wizard is also going to be best case scenario with spells as you will massively hurt classes like the warlock who depend on using these cantrips but lets just focus on the wizard.

I'm trying to puzzle out what circumstances you've seen an issue and tried to lock it away. The spells all inherently are worse than just attacking but are there to provide minor wizardly things to do for the wizard. Fire Bolt (the highest damaging cantrip as far as I remember) still does less than a fighter swinging with their sword and is very swingy to boot in terms of damage. Sure it increases over time but fire bolt is still ultimately your 'i have nothing important to do this turn but I would like to contribute to the fight' spell. I'm not sure what issue your solving (after having a flick through the non-damage cantrips). Was Light being too useful or something? True Strike basically causes you to waste a turn to cast so its literally only helpful in some kind of ambush situation or prep-scenarios in which case you have far more potent things to do with that 1 round of prep. Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation are all nice non-combat skills where the rest doesn't cap anything really and are about giving the character a chance to try something creative so I'm not sure where you are changing or restricting there. Every other spell either has massive restrictions or a crazy limited use case and this is the best case scenario for why you implemented a rule like this.

clusterfuck posted:

The cantrips one is probably going to sound terrible and grognard to many of you but as myself and the other guy DMing initially hadn't played since 1st edition, neither of us liked the idea of unlimited cantrips.

So heres the other part of the sentence and I left it until last because I'm trying to lead up to a point here. Since the answer doesn't really have any mechanical impact and the narrative control is pretty small fry (especially in the grad scheme of the wizard's power set), the reasoning is 'we didn't like the idea despite having no knowledge of the game'. I mean maybe if you realise the reasoning was flawed you shouldnt use that rule anymore?

kingcom fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jun 13, 2017

# ? Jun 13, 2017 02:58

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Yeah, what I'd really like to know is what problem limiting cantrips is meant to solve, because I've never heard of unlimited cantrips causing a problem. On the surface it sounds like the "I haven't played D&D for years but I already know how to play and it's not like what this book says" thing that loving plagues every edition change, but if it's fixing something that was a problem for that particular group I'd love to hear what it was and how the houserule helps.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:09

Paramemetic: Sep 29, 2003; Area 51. You heard of it, right?; Fallen Rib

Man I've homebrewed a setting that is Not Actually Dark Sun (the NADS setting) which I felt poo poo on Wizards hard by making all spells copyrighted and you have to buy a license or break the DRM (Distribution of Rites and Magics) and if you pirate a spell there are potential legal consequences (magicorporations control all the magic. You wouldn't download a Dragon.) Also, if you're not in a city with an Arcane Grid you have to suck magic out of magical items using an Arcane Transmodulator or defile the land (which causes it to freeze because it's NADS) in order to recharge spell slots or Arcane Magazines for your guns.

I got real weird with this setting and it's written for the players I've got (shoutout to the ones in this thread), it's Faerun 11491 DR, a high technology but all magically powered setting (think Legend of Korra but all corporate hellscape). We just introduced ZTC because one of the players is investing all his gold in that instead of buying stuff with it or putting it in his Wallet of Holding (Acererak Banking & Trust). Last session they performed a heist on a train to rescue a magical engineer who designed the Arcane Transmodulator (it threatens the corporations' control over magic because magic can be performed off the Grid). In tomorrow's session they are starting off by infiltrating the Elemental Equipment Expo.

Sorry, getting off on a tangent (I'm really enjoying DMing this setting).

But anyways what I'm saying is I have built all kinds of ways to poo poo on my casters right into my setting (and resultingly my party is largely martials lmao) but I'm looking at that thing with cantrips and it's just, goddamn.

I mean, when I first heard about cantrips I thought "oh wow wizards get another buff welp" but they are actually scaled decently within bounded accuracy such that they don't break the game but instead let your wizard do something in all the other encounters where it's not time to nova, and they are basically essential for warlocks. Just yikes.

The rest of the stuff it boils down to "if that's what your players are into, nice, sounds cool."

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:18

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

AlphaDog posted:

Yeah, what I'd really like to know is what problem limiting cantrips is meant to solve, because I've never heard of unlimited cantrips causing a problem. On the surface it sounds like the "I haven't played D&D for years but I already know how to play and it's not like what this book says" thing that loving plagues every edition change, but if it's fixing something that was a problem for that particular group I'd love to hear what it was and how the houserule helps.

The problem clearly is that it made casters too strong in the early levels, when everyone knows that casters should be completely useless until level 5 at the earliest.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:18

Emy: Apr 21, 2009

Well I guess it solves the problem of Warlock being able to blast things, because that signature ability they have, Eldritch Blast, which was an unlimited-use class feature in 3.5e, and an at-will power automatically granted by a class feature in 4e, is a cantrip in 5e.

5e has problems but unlimited use cantrips isn't one of them. Do you really want to go back to the days of "welp I'm out of spells, guess I'll be sniping with my light crossbow for the rest of the day"?

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:23

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Yeah a whole mess of essential class features are encoded as cantrips if they fit in the rules there, that's a really uneven and arbitary change. It pretty much has no consequences 90% of the time, and when it does, it really sucks for the one guy involved.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:25

Reclaimer: Sep 3, 2011; Pierced through the heart
but never killed

Paramemetic posted:

Man I've homebrewed a setting that is Not Actually Dark Sun (the NADS setting) which I felt poo poo on Wizards hard by making all spells copyrighted and you have to buy a license or break the DRM (Distribution of Rites and Magics) and if you pirate a spell there are potential legal consequences (magicorporations control all the magic. You wouldn't download a Dragon.) Also, if you're not in a city with an Arcane Grid you have to suck magic out of magical items using an Arcane Transmodulator or defile the land (which causes it to freeze because it's NADS) in order to recharge spell slots or Arcane Magazines for your guns.

I got real weird with this setting and it's written for the players I've got (shoutout to the ones in this thread), it's Faerun 11491 DR, a high technology but all magically powered setting (think Legend of Korra but all corporate hellscape). We just introduced ZTC because one of the players is investing all his gold in that instead of buying stuff with it or putting it in his Wallet of Holding (Acererak Banking & Trust). Last session they performed a heist on a train to rescue a magical engineer who designed the Arcane Transmodulator (it threatens the corporations' control over magic because magic can be performed off the Grid). In tomorrow's session they are starting off by infiltrating the Elemental Equipment Expo.

Sorry, getting off on a tangent (I'm really enjoying DMing this setting).

But anyways what I'm saying is I have built all kinds of ways to poo poo on my casters right into my setting (and resultingly my party is largely martials lmao) but I'm looking at that thing with cantrips and it's just, goddamn.

I mean, when I first heard about cantrips I thought "oh wow wizards get another buff welp" but they are actually scaled decently within bounded accuracy such that they don't break the game but instead let your wizard do something in all the other encounters where it's not time to nova, and they are basically essential for warlocks. Just yikes.

The rest of the stuff it boils down to "if that's what your players are into, nice, sounds cool."

Can't wait to play mutant gunslinger Vincenza Inamorata again. Gotta keep reminding Hyper that his fuckin' nailbat doesn't have any materia slots though.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:26

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

I like the house rules. he went big with 'em. who cares if a few classes get nerfed it's not like they're balanced anyways

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:31

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Emy posted:

Do you really want to go back to the days of "welp I'm out of spells, guess I'll be sniping with my light crossbow for the rest of the day"?

Now I'm picturing a high-effort reimagining of wizards as expert archers with mostly buff spells where wizard academy is 50% how to temporarily bestow 6 years of lifting gains on other people, and 50% sniper school.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:38

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

My follow up question would be how often does clusterfuck hand out Short Rests, because 8 cantrip casts is just about right that it wouldn't even matter that they were limited if you had a Short Rest every 2 fights.

But if you don't, then the other classes that regenerate stuff on Short Rests are the ones that start getting shafted.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:42

clusterfuck: Feb 6, 2004

lol It's cool I was expecting conniption fits I guess.

From what I've seen these changes haven't diminished the game for our players, whose opinions are the only ones I care about on this.

Reene posted:

My favorite is how the cantrips thing completely hamstrings casters and in particular the Warlock class as a whole.

Except no one has run out of cantrips yet. The effect has been invisible if not zero.

re Warlocks, as I said, those of us with any experience had literally not played since 1st edition so didn't know anything about Warlocks. We don't have a Warlock PC. I only read about them after we were up and running and the particular point about Eldritch Blast only dawned on me recently as an NPC took a level of Warlock. I'd considered making an exception wrt Eldritch Blast, making it an ability of Warlocks to have unlimited Eldritch Blast. As it's a NPC not a player I'm going to see how it goes.

I'd say the main aspect of unlimited cantrips we disliked is the cheap, video game feel of them. If you're melee you risk getting hit, an archer has ammunition - not that it comes into play often but it did in a recent set piece battle. It's a good example come to think of it...

The party was trapped in a chamber with multiple passages running off of it. Zombies began to emerge from all the passages, including the exit the party knew of. From seeing bodies on the way in the party calculated there may be up to 64 zombies swarming them. They realised they did not have infinite ammunition to deal with the situation in combat, however in the middle of the room was a magical but clearly trapped device the party had to figure out with some lateral thinking in order to solve the encounter. They got there, barely, just as half the party was getting panicked and ready to flee.

So, unlimited cantrips diminish this kind of survivalist encounter IMO because the option of blasting away is too easy. Obviously I'm designing the encounters with limited cantrips in mind, so you know, don't panic.

Just so you know, every player in this group has recently gained a cantrip from a different class from a story event in the game. So they each have more versatility and choice. I don't know if I'd have done that with unlimited cantrips.

Dameius posted:

Why do you disagree with the idea that everyone deserves an equal chance of leveling?

As with cantrips, I'm not a fan of instant levelling, it seems cheap and video game. Being only familiar with 1st edition I was used to training and expense. I knew this is a frontier setting with very little time in towns so I needed a system that would work basically in a hexcrawl campaign, by which I mean there is almost no downtime.

I think it makes as much sense for certain attributes to advantage learning just as Dexterity advantages AC or Charisma advantages social encounters. Also, the Wisdom classes are often closer to divine influence and that fits aspects of the story. As most any ability check is influenced by an appropriate ability except for death rolls, it's consistent with the intent of the rules.

slap me and kiss me posted:

No Steven, you don't get to have fun because it's not realistic. You have to earn it via this fickle die.

We enjoy a game full of random tables and generally operating on dice rolls and probabilities. Go figure. The Insight check is just another excuse for the table to get excited about a dice roll.

All this poo poo flying about "I wouldn't play in your game loving grognard" - our group sees the rules as a means to make up a story together and it's working for us. I didn't post here to complain, I posted to offer how we make the rules work for this campaign. On the Insight rule, one player criticized it, the rest of the players are alright with it. If they'd all objected it could be revised, but they did not.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:46

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

clusterfuck posted:

lol It's cool I was expecting conniption fits I guess.

From what I've seen these changes haven't diminished the game for our players, whose opinions are the only ones I care about on this.

Aren't most of your players new and thus, presumably, might not know better?

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:57

clusterfuck: Feb 6, 2004

AlphaDog posted:

I was pointing out how a similar thing can work and can be fun. You're right in that tying it all to one check based on one attribute is a pretty bad way of doing it.

If I had to include something like that, I'd base the check on the character's highest proficient save. (Calling back to the "+10%xp for >X in your primarary attribute" thing in earlier versions).

e: To be clear, I don't hate the idea of "you rolled low, lose a couple of days levelling" in a sandbox game, but I don't like basing it on one attribute because why would you do that, you're literally saying that it's harder to learn to fighter if your cleric number is low.

The ability to learn is governed by an ability. The suggestion you offered is a decent alternative but get this, it makes the check effectively amount to a random die roll rather than an ability to learn, for which some have a higher aptitude.

If the table objected another option could be using either Wis, Int or Cha modifier with the roll.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 03:58

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

clusterfuck posted:

Except no one has run out of cantrips yet. The effect has been invisible if not zero.

Obviously I'm designing the encounters with limited cantrips in mind, so you know, don't panic

"I'm subconsciously aware that my houserule is bad".

clusterfuck posted:

The ability to learn is governed by an ability. The suggestion you offered is a decent alternative but get this, it makes the check effectively amount to a random die roll rather than an ability to learn, for which some have a higher aptitude.

If the table objected another option could be using either Wis, Int or Cha modifier with the roll.

Why do you feel that certain classes should be better at getting better at what they do? What does that add? Again, I don't object to the concept of sometimes taking time to level, but why would a fighter be inherently worse at improving at being a fighter than a cleric would be at improving at being a cleric?

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jun 13, 2017

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:01

slap me and kiss me: Apr 1, 2008; You best protect ya neck

Sounds like your table did object

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:01

Wrestlepig: Feb 25, 2011; my mum says im cool; Toilet Rascal

levelling up isn't about learning, exclusively. A fighter could get better at fighting because he's been working out, got over the death of his unit, started getting closer to his heroic destiny, etc. Why is more or less wisdom a part of that?

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:01

Dameius: Apr 3, 2006

Hey man, if everyone at the table genuinely is enjoying themselves and disagreements are resolved like adults and everyone agreed to the rules before playing then gently caress it. Go wild. It's just baffling to me that you'd impose these restrictions onto 5e instead of just playing the game that better matched what you wanted.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:06

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

I feel like someone saying, "i don't like this house rule," and the other dude going "tough titties miss biddy" is the exact opposite of an adult conversation.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:10

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Dameius posted:

Hey man, if everyone at the table genuinely is enjoying themselves and disagreements are resolved like adults and everyone agreed to the rules before playing then gently caress it. Go wild. It's just baffling to me that you'd impose these restrictions onto 5e instead of just playing the game that better matched what you wanted.

because an AD&D 1e game would still have had a bunch of houserules stapled onto it for stuff like ascending AC and level 1 cleric spells and an initiative system you can actually understand.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:11

Dameius: Apr 3, 2006

I didn't want to belabor that point, but as many other people have brought it up, that is a sticking point for me in my head while trying to understand all of this. I just didn't want to seem like there was a thread dog pile going on.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:13

Neon Knight: Jan 14, 2009

slap me and kiss me posted:

Sounds like your table did object

Yeah it sounds like the one person at the table who has been unlucky enough to actually engage with this mechanic didn't like it. But you don't value their opinion?

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:14

mango sentinel: Jan 5, 2001; by sebmojo

The fact no one has run out of cantrips may be because they're hoarding them like a precious resource. I think ammo tracking for ranged characters in D&D is pretty dumb as well.

There are better ways to model being exhausted as a fight drags on than having everyone but melee get worse at their job. Just add penalties to rolls or disadvantage as the fight drags on. You can do that scenario in a way that doesn't require you to rewrite core tenets of the game.

If you don't like something because it's "video gamey" then maybe 5e just isn't the system for you. Aspects that feel that that way likely do so because they're modern game design considerations for ease of play. Video games are concerned about that stuff in ways older p&p systems were not, and if you don't like it, why not just pick your preferred flavor of AD&D instead?

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:16

clusterfuck: Feb 6, 2004

kingcom posted:

*why gently caress with cantrips?*

So heres the other part of the sentence and I left it until last because I'm trying to lead up to a point here. Since the answer doesn't really have any mechanical impact and the narrative control is pretty small fry (especially in the grad scheme of the wizard's power set), the reasoning is 'we didn't like the idea despite having no knowledge of the game'. I mean maybe if you realise the reasoning was flawed you shouldnt use that rule anymore?

Two main reasons aside from "feels too video game". You are correct that I messed with the rules before playing. The campaign was intended as low magic, at 1st tier at least, the RAW describe cantrips as common place - that did not fit the setting. I already said this campaign has a story specific role for magic.

Secondly, we didn't want a scenario where a problem could be solved by unlimited casting of any given cantrip. Rather than read through every cantrip description we houseruled sufficient use of cantrips so it would refresh on short rest but took out the possibility of an unlimited exploit. We wanted to keep close to RAW but just take out that one annoying possibility.

Yes, our elf wizard does use a bow sometimes.

A lot of you in this thread have played through multiple versions of D&D and have a knowledge we didn't when we started. Again, didn't know what a Warlock even was.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:19

Elfgames: Sep 11, 2011; Fun Shoe

clusterfuck posted:

I'd say the main aspect of unlimited cantrips we disliked is the cheap, video game feel of them

A static amount of spellpoints that deplete untill you rest is waaaay more videogamey than your magic users being able to use low level mostly insignificant magic as they will

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:21

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

He's absolutely right about on demand cantrips though. Example: recently our party was stuck on a plateau being sieged. Enemy had to work on finding routes up. We had an archer character who killed a bunch fast but then got low on arrows and had to save them for when a real fight happened.

If someone was cantripping the whole time the battle would've been much different and we may well have been able to outlast the sieve just because of our opponents having no way to deal with infinite amounts of ranged damage.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:28

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# ? May 28, 2024 09:03

Dr Cheeto: Mar 2, 2013; Wretched Harp

That's like the one situation I've heard of where ammo tracking or cantrip limits might actually make play interesting

# ? Jun 13, 2017 04:31

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