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The so many heinous UI decisions in the graviteam games add up to make it such a chore to decipher that I've never been able to solve it, and I have made an effort. Some of it is little stuff; take the Mius Front movement default orders icons: the arrows point in 7 different directions even though all represent variations of "advance." Three different icons are used to represent unit formations (triangles, little men, squares) and I cant' tell why. Why does the maneuver in attack icon point backwards? Is it some kind of retreat? The icons on page 20 of the manual might as well be hieroglyphs to me. It's very frustrating. The manual doesn't even use the convention I'm used to on bullet-pointed lists in two columns (down left column, down right column); instead read left to right across both columns.
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Jun 13, 2017 14:41
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Just watch some loving nerd on youtube play it for an hour and you should be good?
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Jun 13, 2017 14:42
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glynnenstein posted:The so many heinous UI decisions in the graviteam games add up to make it such a chore to decipher that I've never been able to solve it, and I have made an effort. Some of it is little stuff; take the Mius Front movement default orders icons: the arrows point in 7 different directions even though all represent variations of "advance." Three different icons are used to represent unit formations (triangles, little men, squares) and I cant' tell why. Why does the maneuver in attack icon point backwards? Is it some kind of retreat? The icons on page 20 of the manual might as well be hieroglyphs to me. It's very frustrating. The manual doesn't even use the convention I'm used to on bullet-pointed lists in two columns (down left column, down right column); instead read left to right across both columns. What are you even talking about An attack order is an attack order what Are you people getting confused becausr of where the arrows point. Theyre just icons Visible units are dots. Suspected contacts are yellow men.
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Jun 13, 2017 14:45
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No need to be assholes, assholes. I'll respond to these questions as best I can later. I'm at work at the moment.
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Jun 13, 2017 14:53
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Jun 13, 2017 14:58
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Phi230 posted:Its just an RTS I don't get why this thread has such a problem just ordering men around It's not just an RTS. It has a lot more in common with CM than it does with Company of heroes. That said, unlike CM they have managed to make the user interface as difficult as possible to navigate in a sensible way. They also make positioning troops prior to battle as difficult as possible. I've got to literally dick around for 20 minutes prior to a minor skirmish to make out terrain features hidden under a bunch of colored square shaped dots; however, my biggest critique is the translation. I literally have a Phd and I've got to scour briefings like 7 times before I have a handle on what is actually supposed to be going on in the scenario/campaign.
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Jun 13, 2017 14:59
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what's the point of a wargame if it doesn't have a terrible and/or ancient ui?
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Jun 13, 2017 15:04
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History remembered Phi230 rather fondly, but historians unanimously agree that his death on the hill defending the Graviteam Tactics UI was an unfitting end for any man.
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Jun 13, 2017 15:06
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Dying on hills is what mostly happens in graviteam anyway
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Jun 13, 2017 15:08
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I'll try to be specific about some of my points of confusion straight out of the manual. These are all commands to advance forward in different modes. An optimal design would use differences in the icons to give the user information. If the arrow points in a different direction, it ought to be because it's telling you something. Just having them point in different directions without meaning is noise. This one example is not the barrier to entry for me, I'm just saying it's representative of the issues that create challenges (for me) throughout, and those add up.  This chart is so unclear that it took me a long time to (I think) grasp. What I believe it is saying is the top 3 on the left are type of formation, the top 3 on the right are density of that formation, and the bottom 3 are a sub-setting of the "line" option. It's a very jumbled presentation.  This is so hard for me to decipher because neither the meaning of the elements nor the context between them is intuitive to me. I own all the GT games and their DLCs because this is my kinda poo poo so I'll figure it out someday, but there really is something especially difficult about them.
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Jun 13, 2017 16:32
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ZombieLenin posted:It's not just an RTS. It has a lot more in common with CM than it does with Company of heroes. Doctor.
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Jun 13, 2017 16:59
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Subsim related question since everyone talking about Cold Waters made me resinstall Silent Hunter 3 while I wait for CW to get fleshed out more: In SH3, did/does anyone else actually play with crew fatigue enabled? I like the idea of my men getting stronger and more resilient with experience, but the micro of making sure they get sleep is just...annoying? I'm using the Grey Wolves Gold mod. Right now I've just disabled fatigue in the .cfg, and keep half my guys in the crew quarters to simulate shifts. But am I missing some kind of interesting crew management by just disabling fatigue? I'd like the idea of trying to limp a worn out crew back to port after a long patrol, but it just seems like a pain in the rear end. The fact that fatigue (and recovery!) are disabled at higher time compression factors screws up any attempts at regular rotation.
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Jun 13, 2017 17:07
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LogisticEarth posted:Subsim related question since everyone talking about Cold Waters made me resinstall Silent Hunter 3 while I wait for CW to get fleshed out more: Speaking of games where realism makes it unfun. I mean there is the one level of unfun you can turn off because who wants to do trigonometry to play a game? Then there is the reality of playing a uboat commander past September 1943 that you really cannot turn off. That said, I'm really looking forward to UBOOT.
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Jun 13, 2017 17:41
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if you can't eyeball a merchantman's AOB just by looking at it through the scope why even play SH
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Jun 13, 2017 17:46
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ZombieLenin posted:That said, I'm really looking forward to UBOOT. Depends on your architecture but there is probably already a port.
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Jun 13, 2017 18:31
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ZombieLenin posted:I mean there is the one level of unfun you can turn off because who wants to do trigonometry to play a game? I very much enjoy that part 
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Jun 13, 2017 18:42
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pthighs posted:I very much enjoy that part Yeah doing all the manual targeting, setting up a good firing solution, and having your torpedoes crack a ship in half is incredibly satisfying. I kinda wish the crew management was fun so it would add to the atmosphere/narrative of a patrol, but it seems that won't really be the case in SH3
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Jun 13, 2017 18:50
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LogisticEarth posted:But am I missing some kind of interesting crew management by just disabling fatigue? Nope. Crew fatigue should be a factor for a full sim, since leaving your crew at battlestations isn't something you should be doing for long periods, but it wasn't until SH4 introduced the three watch period structure that it became anything but an annoying chore. I've not seen an SH3 mod that handles fatigue in a way that is worth not turning the gently caress off. (Not even GWX)
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Jun 13, 2017 18:53
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Paradoxish posted:Cold Waters is a lot of fun, but also pretty miserable from a UI/polish/usability perspective. [/b]It's also almost literally Red Storm Rising in modern form.[/b] I realize it was billed as a spiritual successor, but it's been a long time since I've run across any game that hewed this closely to its source material. That's definitely not a bad thing, but it does make me wonder whether Killerfish is going to be able to really fix some of the issues given how much of what's good about Cold Waters is lifted directly from RSR. Yeah this very much surprised me. They literally made it the same even though we have better technology and common UI practices now. It seems they went backwards in order to make it exactly like RSR. I'm actually watching more streams of it than playing it.
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Jun 13, 2017 22:02
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imo shoulda gone full xbox controller
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Jun 13, 2017 22:06
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LogisticEarth posted:Subsim related question since everyone talking about Cold Waters made me resinstall Silent Hunter 3 while I wait for CW to get fleshed out more: I went through the files and tried to find a happy medium of managing fatigue because I got very frustrated managing my crew more than my boat. Time compression makes it worse. If I want to travel some distance then all I'm doing is moving guys in and out of the crew quarters. I spent a long time editing the fatigue to get it just right before I ended up just turning it off entirely. I like the idea of crew management but in my opinion it just wasn't fun enough to deal with. LogisticEarth posted:Yeah doing all the manual targeting, setting up a good firing solution, and having your torpedoes crack a ship in half is incredibly satisfying. I kinda wish the crew management was fun so it would add to the atmosphere/narrative of a patrol, but it seems that won't really be the case in SH3 Honestly I think this part of the game is really the draw to the subsimmer. I've tried it before but am very very bad and being drunk makes it much more difficult. I just play vanilla now with a few minor mods. GW makes the UI too complex looking for me and since I'm not manual targeting I don't see much of a point. The patrols do tend to get boring after a while though. Ah well, I still play it a lot and somehow it became my second most played game on Steam. Pennywise the Frown fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jun 13, 2017 |
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Jun 13, 2017 22:14
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Pennywise the Frown posted:Yeah this very much surprised me. They literally made it the same even though we have better technology and common UI practices now. It seems they went backwards in order to make it exactly like RSR. I'm actually watching more streams of it than playing it. Yep. It's kind of interesting, because it's not like a more modern UI would really affect the core gameplay and a lot of the smaller problems just come down to issues with discoverability/ease of reference. Have clickable controls for navigation/masts and actually use tooltips (that ideally include the hotkey) and the game instantly becomes ten times easier to understand and learn. A panel that shows some details about enemy units would have been really nice too. That said, I do still like the game a lot, mostly because RSR is really fun at its core. The biggest disappointment for me is that nothing was done to make the campaign any deeper.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:23
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pthighs posted:I very much enjoy that part After May 1943, and really starting late summer, u-boats had an over 75% loss rate. Not a lot of fun to play that if you model it realistically.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:27
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Someone do a remake of Silent Hunter 3 where you command loads of U-boats and you take control only when stuff actually happens.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:41
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ZombieLenin posted:After May 1943, and really starting late summer, u-boats had an over 75% loss rate. It's a ton of fun, you actually have a bloody challenge and mostly die. It turns it into a horror game!
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Jun 13, 2017 23:44
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ZombieLenin posted:After May 1943, and really starting late summer, u-boats had an over 75% loss rate. Then play during the happy times?
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Jun 14, 2017 00:17
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Then play during the happy times? I mean, I do! Just saying it can be dreadfully unfun if you are not down for dying all the time.
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Jun 14, 2017 04:37
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Michaellaneous posted:At least learn the NATO classification of the boats so you get a basic idea of what you are up against. I am mostly here to have fun actually. A grognard-lite if you will. I memorise stuff like NATO classifications from my own notes, but I need them to remember the top speed, sonar type and weapon loadout of a soviet boat. Having pages of well organized notes right under your nose is how you best learn these games. It's like a traditional hand-drawn map in some games, old school gaming for me. I don't mind the keyboard user interface either because it just works. (I did actually learn NATO classifications of some things in my formative years, but it was mostly 1980's air and ground stuff from F-19 stealth fighter and M1 tank platoon. So I share the shame of being a bit of a grognard. Just not a Navy one. Cold Waters is converting me.)
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Jun 14, 2017 07:03
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There is a brief tangent from the Strike Commander-ing thread - would it be theoretically possible to run a goon vs. goon MP game? I know that as it stands there's not really a multiplayer capability in CMANO proper, but couldn't you set up both sides (as per the goon orders) to execute their missions, then let the whole thing play out by itself?
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Jun 14, 2017 21:12
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This was actually my original idea for the LP. Eventually I settled on one side to reduce my own workload. The game has a "record" function but I found it to be rather clunky. You could replay each side this way or watch as an all seeing narrator. If the record function was smoother you could break it down into 10 minute blocks and do it Combat Mission style.
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Jun 14, 2017 23:39
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Yooper posted:This was actually my original idea for the LP. Eventually I settled on one side to reduce my own workload. The game has a "record" function but I found it to be rather clunky. You could replay each side this way or watch as an all seeing narrator. If the record function was smoother you could break it down into 10 minute blocks and do it Combat Mission style. That was probably the right call, in the name of peace and sanity. ...but now I'll always wonder what might have been. Let's go hunt a splinter-Greenpeace submarine!
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Jun 15, 2017 00:15
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Wooper posted:Someone do a remake of Silent Hunter 3 where you command loads of U-boats and you take control only when stuff actually happens. Should be like a Total War: Battle of the Atlantic kind of thing.
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Jun 15, 2017 07:50
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Kilmers Elbow posted:Should be like a Total War: Battle of the Atlantic kind of thing. Isn't that what Atlantic Fleet already is?
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Jun 15, 2017 09:05
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glynnenstein posted:
Yeah, this is pretty spot on. The movement icons make sense to someone, but are generally pretty unintuitive. It becomes a matter of rote memorization as to what is what. My question around the movement commands is more about their functionality. Is each individual command just a preset group of modifiers, or do they actually change behavior? For example, an "attack" command typically has the modifiers line formation, normal formation, one line, use smoke. The "assault" command typically has has the same modifiers except it uses the dense formation. Is that the only difference between those commands? Or is there an underlying change in AI behavior? Is the AI more aggressive in "assault" mode? Does it move faster? Does it use leapfrogging and covering fire? So far, I haven't been able to discern a notable difference. If the movement commands are just a group of preset modifiers, then in theory, you could make every movement command exactly the same by setting the modifiers the same way for each. Anyone have any insight on this? quote:These are all commands to advance forward in different modes. An optimal design would use differences in the icons to give the user information. If the arrow points in a different direction, it ought to be because it's telling you something. Just having them point in different directions without meaning is noise. This one example is not the barrier to entry for me, I'm just saying it's representative of the issues that create challenges (for me) throughout, and those add up. See this one didn't bother me too much. Basically, it's all about formations to be used during the movement command: density, shape (or lack thereof), and number of lines. While not entirely intuitive, it's certainly not the worst command set of the GT series. That honor goes to... quote:
Holy poo poo, this is the worst design choice ever and one that has really been difficult to master - though I'll admit I've just started messing with these combos since I've only just wrapped my head around the basics of the UI. Rather than having individual buttons or some other effective UI piece that clearly says "crawl" you have to use this ridiculous combination of behavior modifiers. Truth be told, I think I'd rather have these functions automated by AI routines rather than have to specify them myself. Maybe give me a handful more movement command types and build in these behaviors automatically. For as much as this game series preaches that you are the operational commander and not the squad leader, this reeks of micromanagement. I shouldn't have to tell my units on an attack move at night against an entrenched enemy not to use their headlights. In any case, once you look at them, they do make a little bit of sense, though they are still hard to apply in a practical and timely fashion. I guess that's why you can give orders while the game is paused. The "head with a gear" icon still kinda confuses me. That combined with the other "head with curved arrow" have something to do with transferring control of the unit to the AI. I think the head/gear icon means that a unit's firing will be completely AI controlled. The other head icon means that the unit will be entirely AI controlled. As far as the operational phase goes, I actually like the interface in Op Star better as it seems clearer. You can assign support units to field units directly and you can specify who gets priority for reinforcements or ammunition, which is very important for longer operations like the Voronezh one. By the end of that, most of my units were out of ammo. What I can't see in Mius Front is how to assign support units to field units at all. I'm suspicious that feature has been removed entirely. Additionally, I've started to understand the supply situation a bit in Mius Front, but I've not played a long enough operation to see if my suspicions are correct. If anyone has input there too, I'd love to hear it. A couple other questions: 1. In OS, you could lock a unit at the end of the deployment phase so that the AI wouldn't reposition it [loving randomly] as it deployed the rest of the AI forces. I haven't found a way to do that in MF and find that, after careful setup of my units, the AI shuffles them around as soon as I complete the deployment phase. Super frustrating. Anyone know how to lock the position of units? Putting them under/taking them out of AI control doesn't seem to make any difference. 2. Sometimes during the deployment phase, my units have a "?" next to their names. Anyone know what that means? I can't find anything in the manual (shocker) and I don't see that those units are out of control/comms/ammo, whatever. See pretty much everyone in the screenshot below. 
Chuck_D fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 13:19
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quote:Graviteam stuff. Right. And say what you want for Battlefront's idiotic business model, because I actually agree; however, they make great games and the movement commands are super intuitive. I mean you can compare what Graviteam throws at you with: Combat Mission Movement Orders posted:
ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 15:01
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if anyone has been on the fence about Flashpoint Campaigns its 50% off during origins at the matrix store: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4299788 Going to grab both I think.
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Jun 15, 2017 23:09
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Twlight posted:if anyone has been on the fence about Flashpoint Campaigns its 50% off during origins at the matrix store: You should. loving awesome games. Still waiting patiently for Southern Storm, but I'm beginning to worry it isn't going to happen.
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Jun 16, 2017 14:35
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Slitherine is streaming Flashpoint right now in case you want to take a look before you buy https://www.twitch.tv/slitherinegroup I like their streams because the guy sounds overjoyed when like over 20 people are watching it
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Jun 16, 2017 16:19
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Looks like fantasy general is free on gog today. One of my favorite wargames.
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Jun 16, 2017 17:47
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ZombieLenin posted:You should. loving awesome games. I did hooked them into steam as well, too bad they didn't have the sale in steam too.
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Jun 16, 2017 18:23
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