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There's nothing wrong with individuals going as individuals who support Pride, if they are not in uniform and thus representing an organization.
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Jun 13, 2017 22:59
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The Shortest Path posted:There's nothing wrong with individuals going as individuals who support Pride, if they are not in uniform and thus representing an organization. No disagreement here!
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Jun 13, 2017 23:05
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Brainiac Five posted:Are we talking police marching in uniform or police being allowed out of uniform? If the latter, congrats on volunteering to interrogate and perform background checks. I'm pretty sure we can only talk about police marching in uniform. Police marching out of uniform associated with a pro-gay charity or church aren't explicitly representing their bigoted industry, and are vetted by the group they are involved with. We can't do anything about police in uniform along the parade route or providing security - to get permits in larger cities, in my experience you have to show crowd size estimates and guarantee to pay for a certain amount of portable toilets, safety infrastructure, and security (which unfortunately means city cops). All you can do is hope the worst bigots find some excuse to show a schedule conflict. On duty plain clothes cops - how would we know? I don't understand the interrogation or background check part of your post. Except for major corporate sponsors, the groups marching tend to be relatively small and tight knit. How big can a charity group associated with a pro-gay Unitarian church be? Participating in the pro-gay church, charity, league, choir, student union or other organization over the year generally vets you to participate in the parade itself.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:12
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Bethamphetamine posted:I'm pretty sure we can only talk about police marching in uniform. Police marching out of uniform associated with a pro-gay charity or church aren't explicitly representing their bigoted industry, and are vetted by the group they are involved with. The point is that the desire to vet everyone in the parade helps create a hostile environment at Pride, which is a bad thing, because when you have an environment where surveillance is expected, it can't be cleanly contained to just people who deserve it. I mean, maybe you think baby gays are all going to be gung-ho to get the third degree if they volunteer to work on a float...
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Jun 13, 2017 23:28
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The Shortest Path posted:There's nothing wrong with individuals going as individuals who support Pride, if they are not in uniform and thus representing an organization. They must keep that aspect of their lives that we consider shameful hidden away, as if in a small, dark windowless storage space.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:33
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joat mon posted:They must keep that aspect of their lives that we consider shameful hidden away, as if in a small, dark windowless storage space. There are a lot of people who are regularly victimized and harassed by the cops who are in Pride, however, so it's also creating a hostile and unwelcoming environment to have official police participation.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:35
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joat mon posted:They must keep that aspect of their lives that we consider shameful hidden away, as if in a small, dark windowless storage space. You're right being a pig is just like being closeted, I guess us queers were the real bigots all along.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:36
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joat mon posted:They must keep that aspect of their lives that we consider shameful hidden away, as if in a small, dark windowless storage space. What does this have to do with the shame of being put in a jail cell for reasons outside your control. Is policing innate?
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Jun 13, 2017 23:38
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Agnosticnixie posted:What does this have to do with the shame of being put in a jail cell for reasons outside your control. Is policing innate? It will still be wrong to oppress LGBT people if gayness and biness and transness aren't innate or essential conditions.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:39
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Yeah , your talking about a organization as a whole that for decades not only ignored the community , but enforced laws that jailed individuals in that community. It's kind of lovely. Also, if laws did in fact change they'd most certainly start throwing us in jail again.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:47
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Brainiac Five posted:It will still be wrong to oppress LGBT people if gayness and biness and transness aren't innate or essential conditions. Agreed, that was a poor choice of wording.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:48
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Saraiguma posted:You're right being a pig is just like being closeted, I guess us queers were the real bigots all along. No, LGBT people are (on average, there clearly are exceptions) much more sensitive to bigotry, and certainly more so than police (on average) because LGBT people have been more on the receiving end of bigotry. I think the vast majority would agree that being there is pretty lovely. Is the desire of the remainder to exchange bigotry roles understandable? Absolutely. Is it right? No.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:54
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joat mon posted:No, LGBT people are (on average, there clearly are exceptions) much more sensitive to bigotry, and certainly more so than police (on average) because LGBT people have been more on the receiving end of bigotry. I think the vast majority would agree that being there is pretty lovely. Is the desire of the remainder to exchange bigotry roles understandable? Absolutely. Is it right? No. I'm not seeing how it's bigoted to be uncomfortable with people who willingly join oppressive entities that cloak themselves into the idea that they're "just enforcing the law" against minorities.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:56
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joat mon posted:No, LGBT people are (on average, there clearly are exceptions) much more sensitive to bigotry, and certainly more so than police (on average) because LGBT people have been more on the receiving end of bigotry. I think the vast majority would agree that being there is pretty lovely. Is the desire of the remainder to exchange bigotry roles understandable? Absolutely. Is it right? No. Most people aren't suggesting anything comparable except maybe that one guy going on about how his local Unitarians are surveillance freaks. Maybe.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:59
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Brainiac Five posted:I mean, maybe you think baby gays are all going to be gung-ho to get the third degree if they volunteer to work on a float... The baby gay on my team in the bowling league didn't need the third degree to volunteer for Pride. And nobody on the team needed interrogated to get to march in 90 degree weather in our painfully loud team bowling shirts. It's pretty trivial to tell Gays for Trump from an 18 year old who is a member of his university's gay student union. We don't need to be Trump's TSA or Border Patrol to keep hate groups out of a parade. Whatever you think I mean by vetting process, I think you have a much more intense idea of what that means than I do.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:01
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Bethamphetamine posted:The baby gay on my team in the bowling league didn't need the third degree to volunteer for Pride. And nobody on the team needed interrogated to get to march in 90 degree weather in our painfully loud team bowling shirts. Do you really think that every police officer in America is a card-carrying Nazi? That's an... interesting view of why the police are bad.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:02
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In all seriousness I've seen plenty of dudes and ladies dressed up as cops (and other fetishized profession) outfits at various prides, and some of them looked just like a real uniform. It would seem like a real cop could get in in their uniform if they just tried to pretend it was only because they thought the uniform was hot and it wasn't really theirs.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:04
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Agnosticnixie posted:I'm not seeing how it's bigoted to be uncomfortable with people who willingly join oppressive entities that cloak themselves into the idea that they're "just enforcing the law" against minorities.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:14
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joat mon posted:It's not bigoted to be uncomfortable with [insert Other]. As to the second part, unspooling the anarchist/freedom-to/anti-authoritarian/FTP/nihilism Gordian knot is a bit beyond the scope of this thread. These are pretty unhinged statements to make.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:16
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Cops aren't an oppressed other and continuously trying to make lovely comparisons just makes you sound incredibly daft and desperate.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:16
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I've been very clear in my position. There are political and institutional factors which already disqualify them from participation in the parade proper while in uniform. There is no need for anyone to go through their wallets or inspect their tattoos (or their facebook) for white supremacist imagery. I think hearing a fat racist orange idiot shout "EXTREME VETTING" for years has melted your brain. Or you're bored and trolling.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:19
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Bethamphetamine posted:I've been very clear in my position. I assumed you'd read my posts before responding. That was a bad assumption to make.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:23
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Brainiac Five posted:These are pretty unhinged statements to make. In the first part I was agreeing with you, and in the second part saying that expanding the thread to include the philosophical quandaries and emotional baggage of the idea of social order was a bit big to bite off on.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:25
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Brainiac Five posted:Do you really think that every police officer in America is a card-carrying Nazi? That's an... interesting view of why the police are bad. Individually no, but the uniform represents a system of oppression that is not welcome at Pride.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:30
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joat mon posted:In the first part I was agreeing with you, and in the second part saying that expanding the thread to include the philosophical quandaries and emotional baggage of the idea of social order was a bit big to bite off on. No, you're not agreeing with me, because I don't really care about police officers feeling unwelcome. My argument was about the potential knock-on effects on other people. The Shortest Path posted:Individually no, but the uniform represents a system of oppression that is not welcome at Pride. I haven't said otherwise.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:33
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I think that part of the issue is that people are reacting to the police in a very visceral way which is being expressed with language that pretty much everyone can recognize as being flagrantly exclusionary, to an extent that I don't think anyone wold disagree that it would be inappropriate if used in regards to a less powerful entity than uniformed police, and that bothers a lot of people. To expand on that idea, it seems like a lot of people who have experienced that kind of attitude being aimed towards them are reacting with the sentiment "I don't want to be a part of a group that treats anyone that way, regardless of whether or not they deserve it."
Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 00:37
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joat mon posted:They must keep that aspect of their lives that we consider shameful hidden away, as if in a small, dark windowless storage space. gently caress off you piece of poo poo
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Jun 14, 2017 00:41
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Keeshhound posted:I think that part of the issue is that people are reacting to the police in a very visceral way which is being expressed with language that pretty much everyone can recognize as being flagrantly exclusionary, to an extent that I don't think anyone wold disagree that it would be inappropriate if used in regards to a less powerful entity than uniformed police, and that bothers a lot of people. To expand on that idea, it seems like a lot of people who have experienced that kind of attitude being aimed towards them are reacting with the sentiment "I don't want to be a part of a group that treats anyone that way, regardless of whether or not they deserve it." on the other hand, gently caress the police
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Jun 14, 2017 00:42
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This entire argument has been: Police marching in uniform to represent their organization should not be welcome in pride parades because, as an organization, police do not support the LGBTQ community. And then the same two posters walk in with "so you're going to dig into the background of every person attending a parade to make sure they aren't police by profession; doesn't that make you the real bigots?" and we repeat the process all over again because you can't bring yourselves to tell a couple of bad faith posters to gently caress off. Believe it or not the queer community is a sociopolitical one and it makes perfect sense for us to draw lines based on who is working for or against us. You want to profit off some social goodwill for proud ally status, then you have to actually act like an ally. Police as an organization do not do that, and so police as an organization have no place at pride.,
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Jun 14, 2017 03:16
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there wolf posted:This entire argument has been: Police marching in uniform to represent their organization should not be welcome in pride parades because, as an organization, police do not support the LGBTQ community. No, that's not a fair characterization. People go beyond "police as an organization have no place" into "police personally have no place", on a rhetorical level, and that latter is something that is worth feeling out, in my opinion, for reasons I have posted earlier. I don't actually think that it's worth adopting a position of "everyone should be assumed to have the most generous reading possible for their posts", as joat mon's descent into arguing that the police as an organization are capable of being oppressed by QUILTBAG people shows.
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Jun 14, 2017 03:53
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I don't have a problem with LGBT cops marching in pride parades out of uniform or in uniform acting as security. Heck, I'm fine with local police forces that do have a record of protecting the LGBT community marching in uniform in pride parades. But many if not most don't have that record, and I feel that it is inappropriate for organizations with a history of bullying and worse and generally failing to do their jobs to the LGBT community to have an official presence marching in support of pride.
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Jun 14, 2017 04:29
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My GP has a little flyer at the check-in desk asking that patients specify their gender identity at each visit, to ensure that the staff don't make any mistakes. This is in Dothan, Alabama 
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Jun 14, 2017 05:34
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Brainiac Five posted:No, that's not a fair characterization. People go beyond "police as an organization have no place" into "police personally have no place", on a rhetorical level, and that latter is something that is worth feeling out, in my opinion, for reasons I have posted earlier. I don't actually think that it's worth adopting a position of "everyone should be assumed to have the most generous reading possible for their posts", as joat mon's descent into arguing that the police as an organization are capable of being oppressed by QUILTBAG people shows. It's absolutely a fair characterization. The only people bringing up keeping private individuals who happen to be cops out of Pride are you and everyone else on the "it's the oppressed minority who are the real bigots" train. You actually started out wringing your hands over people objecting to uniform cops marching in the parade, but I guess you realized you didn't have a leg to stand on with that one so you've invented this other argument that no one is making to take a noble stand against.
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Jun 14, 2017 06:11
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there wolf posted:It's absolutely a fair characterization. The only people bringing up keeping private individuals who happen to be cops out of Pride are you and everyone else on the "it's the oppressed minority who are the real bigots" train. You actually started out wringing your hands over people objecting to uniform cops marching in the parade, but I guess you realized you didn't have a leg to stand on with that one so you've invented this other argument that no one is making to take a noble stand against. No, I didn't. I can argue that infinitely, and I really ought to, because you are unwilling to concede that other people might not interpret posts in the way you do, and so you should also receive that in return until you understand why that attitude is incompatible with any kind of fruitful discussion. I can also say that you're looking for a reason to play inquisitor, just like you're raging about how I'm a self-hating homo trying to declare gays the real bigots or whatever, and that also is a completely fruitless way to talk to people. What actually happened here is that I questioned the rhetoric, and most people immediately disavowed it except for one guy who couldn't figure out what I was talking about. Which is fine and good. I also don't think arguing that the idea people should think about what they say is inherently concern trolling is a good thing to do in a thread about QUILTBAG communities, because it applies just as well to the use of, say, biphobic or transphobic language. Because those are major loving issues within QUILTBAG communities as a large group, and being willing to police our own language is an important thing to do. EDIT: To take this to the end of the line, people are also hostile to corporations taking place in Pride, for reasons that, while I don't entirely agree with, are at the very least reasonable ones. However, extending the personal hostility to police officers to people who work for those corporations in turn transforms Pride from being for QUILTBAG people as a class of society, or a family of classes, into being about sufficiently politically radical or marginalized QUILTBAG people. And you could argue that there's a sanitary cordon that prevents justified hostility to the police from spilling over into unjustified hostility to other people, but the basic argument for why a police dispatcher is responsible for police violence is one that extends to someone that works for a brewer that targets QUILTBAG people, or a pinkwashing defense contractor. This is without considering veterans, who also are responsible in the same way. But I think we can all agree that it would be absurdly lovely to drive QUILTBAG veterans out or attempt to drive them out. I guess you could argue that what people say doesn't matter, which is kind of absurd. Or you could argue that the psychological benefits of talking about how you hate the police are greater than these potential consequences, which is a fair argument, but one that also ignores how talking about how you hate the police denigrates understanding the police as violent for structural reasons in favor of "police are inherently evil people". Which is itself politically problematic. Brainiac Five fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 06:25
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why can't nazis march in the jewish parade
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Jun 14, 2017 07:13
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can't believe the bigotry in banning me from waving the confederate flag in the martin luther king jr memorial march
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Jun 14, 2017 07:15
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Brainiac Five posted:No, I didn't. I can argue that infinitely, Yeah, you're right dude. I got your post confused with Joat mon's when I reread the entire discussion looking for all these people calling for people who may work as cops to be driven from Pride that you keep insisting are there in order to justify all your hand wringing. You didn't start making a stand against those people who don't exist until later. Brainiac Five posted:The point is that the desire to vet everyone in the parade helps create a hostile environment at Pride, which is a bad thing, because when you have an environment where surveillance is expected, it can't be cleanly contained to just people who deserve it. I mean, maybe you think baby gays are all going to be gung-ho to get the third degree if they volunteer to work on a float... You explicitly asked if people were talking about all cops or just uniformed officers, got a bunch of no's, and yet still felt the need to chide everyone on the hazards of the desire to vet everyone which no one actually expressed any interest in doing. There's being confused, and then there is being deliberately obtuse so you have an excuse to lecture anyway.
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Jun 14, 2017 07:55
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mandatory lesbian posted:why can't nazis march in the jewish parade Oh so now you're going to subject everyone to background checks and a Jedi mind probe? Got you there, now you have to invite skinheads and the KKK to make a float, for I have defeated you at the game of logic.
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Jun 14, 2017 09:47
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there wolf posted:Yeah, you're right dude. I got your post confused with Joat mon's when I reread the entire discussion looking for all these people calling for people who may work as cops to be driven from Pride that you keep insisting are there in order to justify all your hand wringing. You didn't start making a stand against those people who don't exist until later. Lecturing clearly can't be that bad, since you're doing it right now.
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Jun 14, 2017 13:06
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Ayin posted:My GP has a little flyer at the check-in desk asking that patients specify their gender identity at each visit, to ensure that the staff don't make any mistakes. I would never write down anything related to my gender on a piece of paper in Alabama regardless of context. Plenty of trans people have been murdered by bigoted clinical staff who saw information they didn't need to see. It's an issue we're struggling with mightily in how to properly store gender information in our EMR.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:25
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