Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce

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Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed.
Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce	44	21.36%
ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress	19	9.22%
Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin	9	4.37%
Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country	14	6.80%
ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit	8	3.88%
Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died	24	11.65%
Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country	14	6.80%
ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread	17	8.25%
ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter	15	7.28%
ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming	2	0.97%
Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy	10	4.85%
ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union	5	2.43%
ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die	25	12.14%
Total:	206 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Skinty McEdger: Mar 9, 2008; I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!

forkboy84 posted:

Herald article showing that perhaps senior ScotLab figures have sussed out that harping on about independence does more harm than good? Sadly I'm not sure that particular memo has made it all the way to Kez's door yet.

Interesting that it's Findlay who is the first to come out with this. It's obvious that he's making his move for the leadership, but he has form for the anti independence rhetoric.

Notable every article about Findlay this weekend includes the prefix "Corbyn ally."

# ? Jun 11, 2017 19:01

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# ? May 11, 2024 08:53

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Skinty McEdger posted:

Interesting that it's Findlay who is the first to come out with this. It's obvious that he's making his move for the leadership, but he has form for the anti independence rhetoric.

Notable every article about Findlay this weekend includes the prefix "Corbyn ally."

I'll be delighted if Findlay does drop the indy obsession. Otherwise a good MSP. That said, I remain to be convinced. But I'm hopeful.

forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jun 11, 2017

# ? Jun 11, 2017 19:03

Acaila: Jan 2, 2011

Note the mention of Alex Rowley in it as well.
Very interested at the quote from Bob Thomson too - he's a Yesser!
If Labour were to come out and say "We believe there should not be another independence referendum any time soon, but we appreciate that the 2014 referendum showed an appetite for further powers", they'd soak up a lot of votes and have something to actually be in favour of for once.

# ? Jun 11, 2017 19:43

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

hakimashou posted:

Was the status of your migrant-partisan settled?

He had a bit of a meltdown on election night in the big UK thread and I suggested maybe he could become Catalonian or perhaps Basque or an Irish Republican.

Go gently caress yourself with a rusty rake.

# ? Jun 11, 2017 20:58

keep punching joe: Jan 22, 2006; Die Satan!

Coohoolin posted:

Go gently caress yourself with a rusty rake.

Crivvens

# ? Jun 11, 2017 21:42

Raeg: Jul 7, 2008; The top 1% of ducks have control of 99.9% of the bread.

Ken Macintosh would have won

# ? Jun 11, 2017 21:47

Lovely Joe Stalin: Jun 12, 2007; Our Lovely Wang

Coohoolin posted:

Go gently caress yourself with a rusty rake.

Eh up, Toblerone. How it be?

# ? Jun 11, 2017 21:51

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

Skinty McEdger posted:

Interesting that it's Findlay who is the first to come out with this. It's obvious that he's making his move for the leadership, but he has form for the anti independence rhetoric.

Notable every article about Findlay this weekend includes the prefix "Corbyn ally."

it's really funny how people are trying to associate themselves with Corbyn after the past two years. You even had Sturgeon doing it with the "SNP MPs will side with Corbyn more than ScotLab MPs" thing. I wonder if it'll be Kez who's sidelined in the next election while local candidates push the hell out of Corbyn.

Coohoolin posted:

Go gently caress yourself with a rusty rake.

that's no way to talk to a Pissflaps Award winner.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 05:46

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Baron Corbyn posted:

it's really funny how people are trying to associate themselves with Corbyn after the past two years. You even had Sturgeon doing it with the "SNP MPs will side with Corbyn more than ScotLab MPs" thing. I wonder if it'll be Kez who's sidelined in the next election while local candidates push the hell out of Corbyn.

Let us hope.

Anyway, who wants to feel really bad about Scotland for a minute? Have an article about a new far right neo-Nazi group on the go in Scotland from the ashes of National Action, called Scottish Dawn

# ? Jun 12, 2017 11:13

ContinuityNewTimes: Dec 30, 2010; Я выдуман напрочь

Not called for.

ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jun 12, 2017

# ? Jun 12, 2017 11:24

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Coohoolin posted:

Go gently caress yourself with a rusty rake.

Says the man who suggested that if the battle for Scottish independence failed he might take up the socialist struggle in Ireland. Thankfully you took heed of the people who told you that moving to Dublin, putting on the accent and saying things like [genuine Coohoolin quote] "If you think about it, the IRA won" would lead to you being found floating in the Liffey with a picket shoved up your arse within a fortnight.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 13:36

ContinuityNewTimes: Dec 30, 2010; Я выдуман напрочь

Nope

ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jun 12, 2017

# ? Jun 12, 2017 15:07

Hoops: Aug 19, 2005; A Black Mark For Retarded Posting

Don't pick a fight

# ? Jun 12, 2017 15:07

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Jedit posted:

Says the man who suggested that if the battle for Scottish independence failed he might take up the socialist struggle in Ireland. Thankfully you took heed of the people who told you that moving to Dublin, putting on the accent and saying things like [genuine Coohoolin quote] "If you think about it, the IRA won" would lead to you being found floating in the Liffey with a picket shoved up your arse within a fortnight.

Yeah there's no chance something like that might have been said tongue in cheek eh.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 15:46

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

https://twitter.com/HughGaffneyMP/status/874270769139896322

I liked this from the new MP for Coatbridge, Chryston & Bellshill. I especially like that the new MP for Coatbridge, Tom Clarke's old seat, is a member of the Campaign for Socialism.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 15:56

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Coohoolin posted:

Yeah there's no chance something like that might have been said tongue in cheek eh.

The only cheeks your tongue has ever been in are those of Alex Salmond's arse.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 16:27

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Jedit posted:

The only cheeks your tongue has ever been in are those of Alex Salmond's arse.

Can't wait for you pair to just get it over with and gently caress that tension away, or what over else it takes so you stop the tedious sniping in Scotpol

# ? Jun 12, 2017 16:58

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

While browsing Twitter the other day for anything at all to do with the election result, I found this summary of which MPs had signed the Equality Network's Scottish LGBTI Equality Pledge. All the SNP MPs signed it, providing further proof that the SNP Westminster contingent are a single hivemind who acts and thinks in one voice, possibly using a control panel somewhere, and out of Ruth Davidson's 13 Ruth Davidson Modern Non-Toxic Conservatives Who Will Fight For Equality only two actually bothered to sign it, which bodes well.

Another interesting thing: Two out of the seven Labour MPs didn't sign it, and both of those are the MPs noted for being in the previously posted Campaign For Socialism list. I don't know whether the list just wasn't shared around that fervently or if this actually means something. Scotlab lefties in the thread with your ear to the ground - does it?

# ? Jun 12, 2017 18:44

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Angepain posted:

While browsing Twitter the other day for anything at all to do with the election result, I found this summary of which MPs had signed the Equality Network's Scottish LGBTI Equality Pledge. All the SNP MPs signed it, providing further proof that the SNP Westminster contingent are a single hivemind who acts and thinks in one voice, possibly using a control panel somewhere, and out of Ruth Davidson's 13 Ruth Davidson Modern Non-Toxic Conservatives Who Will Fight For Equality only two actually bothered to sign it, which bodes well.

Another interesting thing: Two out of the seven Labour MPs didn't sign it, and both of those are the MPs noted for being in the previously posted Campaign For Socialism list. I don't know whether the list just wasn't shared around that fervently or if this actually means something. Scotlab lefties in the thread with your ear to the ground - does it?

way too many old school/tankie commies think that homosexuality and gender transition are baubles of the bourgeoisie. i guess you've got a couple tankies in your labor party.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 21:43

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

cis autodrag posted:

way too many old school/tankie commies think that homosexuality and gender transition are baubles of the bourgeoisie. i guess you've got a couple tankies in your labor party.

No, there are not tankies in the Labour Party.

Anyway, your best bet if you want an answer is just email them and ask, or hit them up on Twitter. But there's nothing in the CfS platform that suggests any sort of homophobia.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 21:52

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

[EDIT: I can't read properly apparently - see below]

Niric fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jun 12, 2017

# ? Jun 12, 2017 22:06

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Niric posted:

I don't know if you're just poo poo-stirring, if "Labour are actually all homophobes just like the DUP and the Tories" is the new nationalist Twitter meme, or if there's been a change to the website since you posted a few hours ago, but all 7 Labour MPs are shown as signatories

No they aren't. Look again. There's a checkmark against the names of the ones who've signs, Danielle Rowley & Hugh Gaffney have not signed it.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 22:12

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

forkboy84 posted:

No they aren't. Look again. There's a checkmark against the names of the ones who've signs, Danielle Rowley & Hugh Gaffney have not signed it.

Ah, neither they have. I don't think it's particularly damning that they haven't or anything, since "signing an online petition" isn't a great indicator of political action, but they probably should ASAP if only to avoid any nationalist meme-making. Given the current profile of the DUP it seems like equality issues might be getting more coverage than usual, so avoiding even minor kerfuffles seems appropriate.

[edit: would it be worth emailing them just pointing this out to push them to sign it? I'd tweet but my own account is linked to my work and I'd rather not get it politicised]

Niric fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jun 12, 2017

# ? Jun 12, 2017 22:19

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

I think i just misestimated how well publicised this thing was, have seen a couple other mps leap onto it in the past day or so. I imagine someone in the snp campaign sent it to everyone with 'oi sign this' rather than it being 100% unavoidable to all candidates.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 23:07

Hoops: Aug 19, 2005; A Black Mark For Retarded Posting

Considering the majority of Labour MPs only became MPs a handful of days ago, I'd just wait a bit? This was the first working day in the job after all.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 23:20

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Angepain posted:

While browsing Twitter the other day for anything at all to do with the election result, I found this summary of which MPs had signed the Equality Network's Scottish LGBTI Equality Pledge. All the SNP MPs signed it, providing further proof that the SNP Westminster contingent are a single hivemind who acts and thinks in one voice, possibly using a control panel somewhere, and out of Ruth Davidson's 13 Ruth Davidson Modern Non-Toxic Conservatives Who Will Fight For Equality only two actually bothered to sign it, which bodes well.

Another interesting thing: Two out of the seven Labour MPs didn't sign it, and both of those are the MPs noted for being in the previously posted Campaign For Socialism list. I don't know whether the list just wasn't shared around that fervently or if this actually means something. Scotlab lefties in the thread with your ear to the ground - does it?

Ian Davidson was on the list so who the gently caress knows.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 23:27

Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

As Danielle Rowley is my local MP I just messaged her and she say's she'll be signing it as soon as she gets time near a computer. Which is fair enough as computers and working internet are rare commodities out there.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 09:33

CoolCab: Apr 17, 2005; glem

CoolCab posted:

if the Tories get in on the backs of a handful of Scottish seats my poo poo will be so lost it will it will pass into myth. it will take archaeologists generations to find my poo poo

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said��Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is CoolCab, Shitposter of Shitposters
Look on my poo poo, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away

# ? Jun 13, 2017 12:39

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

Here's an excellent piece from (left-wing, pro-indy) Gerry Hassan, which I found interesting not least because it articulates many of my own concerns and frustrations with the SNP as a party of government. Since it comes from a pro-indy perspective and is explicitly presented as finding a way to re-energise that movement rather than persuade people to vote Labour, I thought it might have a bit more credence as an analysis and critique of the SNP with some people here and Nats more widely. For the non-indy people the first half will perhaps be more resonant than the second, just because it's focused on critiquing the SNP, but the second half is really interesting to see Hassan's take on things and how the independence movement can move forward. He's a pretty fair and clear minded writer in my view, and I definitely agree with his point that the independence movement (and the SNP as part of that) need to offer "a coherent national project." I'd say that at times during the IndyRef there were encouraging hints of that, albeit generally from grassroots and activist types rather than from the SNP, and there was a huge tendency to wildly overstate how universal their (left wing) visions were - not just amongst whole electorate but even within the independence voting block (see "Scotland is a left-wing country" repeated as a mantra and projected into some nebulous future state rather than presented as a coherent policy platform).

The whole thing is probably a bit long to quote in full here, so I'd encourage everyone to click through and read it, especially the section on the limits of the SNP's 37% victory and how electorally fragile that may be, but here's the meat of the SNP-critique section:

quote:

Build It and They Will Come: Scotland and Independence after the election by Gerry Hassan.

...

The Context of 2017

The SNP ran an awful campaign. It lacked any clear message, spine or purpose. It seemed to fall back in the last few days on the ridiculous line: �If You Agree with Jeremy Corbyn vote SNP�.

This is bad tactics and bad strategy. The tactics were terrible. Derek Mackay has now run several inept campaigns: running the 2012 and 2017 local elections and doesn�t inspire with his political touch and intelligence. But much more is wrong than how to run an effective campaign: ergo the steadfast belief in the brilliance of the SNP �machine� � a myth which isn�t based on any facts.

The chimera of the SNP assuming it occupies the centre-left and social democratic ground of Scotland while disparaging its main opponents with disdain is over.

In reality the SNP isn�t that much of a centre-left, social democratic party. Instead, it has at best been a defensive progressive party, holding off the worst aspects of the tearing apart of the social contract we have witnessed down south.

But often that hasn�t actually been that progressive here. For example, defending the entitlements of health, education and law professions, and never daring to invoke �public sector reform�, isn�t that radical. It is actually quite conservative and going with the grain of the vested interests who have historically defined civil society.

Instead, the mantra has been that for ten years the SNP has tried to be all things to all men, women and citizens of Scotland. A nod to social democracy here, a wink at the landed interests there, and at all times keep the business community on board. This has been a m�lange of social democratic sentiment and neo-liberalism � rather like New Labour before the scandals and wars � but with much less detail in the former. The deception was that we weren�t meant to notice, mind and criticise this until last Thursday.

Salmond was explicitly this mixture. Sturgeon was meant to talk left, be more about detail and more straight dealing. All we have got has been the practice of the latter, and little else.

The myths of the SNP have to be held up for the threadbare stories many of them are. Thus, we have the line punted by some SNP media sympathisers that the Corbyn manifesto was a tribute to the SNP in its plagiarism and copying of universal benefits.

But this isn�t the case. Corbyn�s manifesto � which wasn�t perfect and articulated a Labour radical nostalgia � put back on the political agenda a host of popular left-wing policies. Some of these such as nationalisation and standing up to corporate capitalism, are policies the SNP has never ever gone remotely near.

The SNP in their decade in office have been silent on the macro-issues of crony capitalism � apart from Salmond�s eulogies to Fred Goodwin and RBS pre-crash � which were as embarrassing and wrong-headed as Gordon Brown�s. Indeed, there is one kind of nationalism the SNP have barely ever touched in the last decade and that is economic nationalism: talking about ownership, control and takeovers. The only exception over the last decade was Salmond�s populist campaigning on Diageo�s decision to close their Kilmarnock plant.

The myopia of centrist ministers like Humza Yousaf calling the recent SNP manifesto �left-wing� indicates a political class which has no real understanding of what the term left-wing means, and who don�t do substantive policies � instead being content to be managers and administrators of the embryonic Scottish state � nothing more and nothing less.

It is this big picture which matters most. Tellingly, Nicola Sturgeon seems to have burned through much of the goodwill and energy of the two and a half year indyref campaign; and in two and a half years as First Minister, has little tangible achievements. That is a tragedy because Sturgeon has many qualities as a campaigner and communicator, but so far she has shown herself as missing critical elements of leadership, and lacking a sense of strategic direction.

There is the issue of the SNP�s swollen membership of 120,000. This was meant to provide the party with a huge advantage over its opponents. It hasn�t so far delivered. It has proven across large swathes of the country in the recent campaign to be an elusive and almost invisible army. There were across numerous Glasgow and West of Scotland constituencies, little obvious door-to-door canvassing and campaigning. This pattern has been developing for a while. It was evident in the recent local elections. And in last year�s SNP depute leadership contest which had a derisory 34% turnout.

Niric fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jun 13, 2017

# ? Jun 13, 2017 16:51

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Thassa good article.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 18:19

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

The Orkney Four must be sick as parrots that Carmichael was elected, and with an increased vote share.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 20:13

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

All good people are sickened by the re-election of liberals.

Fortunately, the Lib Dems still lost their deposit in a majority of seats in the UK.

I see Tommy Shepphard has dropped out of the battle to be the SNP leader at Westminster, not having enough support among his parliamentary colleagues. Which is a shame as he's the only one of the contenders who I'd seen saying that the SNP needed to tack left in action as well as rhetoric to combat the resurgence of Labour in Scotland.

forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jun 13, 2017

# ? Jun 13, 2017 20:21

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

So with the SNP losing their seats in the general election. I'm sure they can come up with a good first step approach to bring back their votes!

Tail Docking is being reintroduced in Scotland with SNP & Tories voting for it. Lots of people not happy.

Extreme0 fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Jun 14, 2017

# ? Jun 14, 2017 01:05

Reveilled: Apr 19, 2007; Take up your rifles

Have I just missed her appearances or has Kezia Dugdale gone missing since the election?

# ? Jun 14, 2017 02:41

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

She's in Bosnia until Wednesday.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 03:32

chuggo is BACK: Jul 1, 2008; "Chuggo"

PWM POTM December 2014

Extreme0 posted:

So with the SNP losing their seats in the general election. I'm sure they can come up with a good first step approach to bring back their votes!

Tail Docking is being reintroduced in Scotland with SNP & Tories voting for it. Lots of people not happy.

loving furries taking over politics now too

# ? Jun 14, 2017 08:49

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Why did the SNP bring back dog mutilation?

# ? Jun 14, 2017 09:24

Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

Pissflaps posted:

Why did the SNP bring back dog mutilation?

Because much like it says in that article, the SNP are the party of the left....wait the hunting lobby want something, why didn't you say so.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 09:32

Alertrelic: Apr 18, 2008

Aramoro posted:

Because much like it says in that article, the SNP are the party of the left....wait the hunting lobby want something, why didn't you say so.

This is the gist of it, yeah.

More specifically: A previous devolved administration gave a commitment to reviewing the ban after it was implemented. There were a number of studies showing that docked/shortened tails resulted in less pain overall (but one of them was self-selecting, advertised in country sports magazines). There were also lots of reports of people going to England to get litters of puppies docked and bringing them back. This all convinced the Scottish Government to allow tail shortening as a preventative measure for specific breeds, with lots of emphasis on the professional judgement of individual vets working in rural areas.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 11:31

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# ? May 11, 2024 08:53

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Alertrelic posted:

This is the gist of it, yeah.

More specifically: A previous devolved administration gave a commitment to reviewing the ban after it was implemented. There were a number of studies showing that docked/shortened tails resulted in less pain overall (but one of them was self-selecting, advertised in country sports magazines). There were also lots of reports of people going to England to get litters of puppies docked and bringing them back. This all convinced the Scottish Government to allow tail shortening as a preventative measure for specific breeds, with lots of emphasis on the professional judgement of individual vets working in rural areas.

For an example, pit bulls. I don't know how common they are over there, but they are especially prone to a problem called "happy tail" where they just wag super hard all the time and smash their tails into stuff until they're open bleeding wounds which are prone to infection and often never full heal. After a first incident, it's not uncommon to remove as much as half the tail to ensure proper healing and to make it harder for them to smack their tails into things really hard.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 15:23

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