|
kcroy posted:ARCs of the unholy consult have been sent out. Here is one review of the next book: http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/the-unholy-consult-by-r-scott-bakker.html So 450 pages. That is basically only enough to cover the final battle, which is ok I guess.
|
#
?
May 11, 2017 15:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 17:49 |
|
|
kcroy posted:ARCs of the unholy consult have been sent out. Here is one review of the next book: http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/the-unholy-consult-by-r-scott-bakker.html Shiiiiit. Two months will be a long rear end wait for what sounds like an epic.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2017 19:09
|
|
|
Rime posted:Shiiiiit. Two months will be a long rear end wait for what sounds like an epic. I'm glad they aren't holding it for a November/Holiday release! Cardiac posted:So 450 pages. I want more pages! The review seemed to indicate that this was final battle + a parallel fight ( thinking lord of the rings where you have the quest and the final battle proceeding at the same time, and impacting each other ). And that it was all covered well. I'm super excited though.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2017 23:51
|
|
|
Man I wish it was more pages though. I can't get enough of this series.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2017 03:16
|
|
|
various cheeses posted:Man I wish it was more pages though. I can't get enough of this series. yeah - I think there will be 2 more books maybe? And who knows - this world is his little philosophy playground, so he might just keep writing endlessly.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 03:37
|
|
|
I'd be fine if he pulled a classical author move and ended the series where he planned to, rather than loving it into the ground like most modern hacks do. I'd rather not see Dune: Black Demon Seed, is what I'm saying. 
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 07:05
|
|
|
That article gave me blue balls (full of black demon seed, obvs) I'd be happy if the series ended there, but I'm just as happy to stick with it through further books. I have a pretty high tolerance for author faffery if the world they built is neat.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2017 01:53
|
|
|
various cheeses posted:Man I wish it was more pages though. I can't get enough of this series. I haven't been keeping up with some of the Bakker threads/forums like I used to, but iirc, this finale is going to have a new Encyclopedic Glossary, which will provide some balm if the story itself feels short. I hope I'm not wrong cuz that first EG was so good, and brought me back to my original youngster days of falling in love with epic fantasy and devouring the wicked cool Tolkien encyclopedia I had back then.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2017 02:39
|
|
|
So Inri Sejenus is named after Iēsus Nazarēnus Rex Iūdaeōrum, right?
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2017 02:53
|
|
|
For sure. Curious whether we'll get any more on the dude, he's pretty enigmatic for being such a key historical player.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2017 14:36
|
|
|
He ascended to the nail of heaven, so here's hoping he's some variation of alive and will be encountered.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2017 15:03
|
|
|
He's actually time-travelling Kelhus, who is also time-travelling Seswatha, who is also Achamian.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2017 15:11
|
|
|
Kuiperdolin posted:He's actually time-travelling Kelhus, who is also time-travelling Seswatha, who is also Achamian. If Kelhus is Seswatha does that mean he cucked his own ancestor?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2017 01:28
|
|
|
Upon a moment's reflection I think you would have a really, really hard time finding a major character in this series who hasn't been cucked.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2017 05:39
|
|
|
Saubon and Conphas only got cucked metaphorically, not literally.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2017 09:53
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Upon a moment's reflection I think you would have a really, really hard time finding a major character in this series who hasn't been cucked. Life imitates art. e: my wife left me for a hole in the ground
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2017 10:40
|
|
|
wellwhoopdedooo posted:Life imitates art. That's pretty dark in a non-bakker context. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2017 17:32
|
|
|
Jesus I just got it
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
The irony is that the nature of the soul means that humans are actually holes in the ground too. So Cnaiur basically hosed god. I need to add this to my cork board.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 23:35
|
|
|
I only just started reading (now near the end of Warrior-Prophet), initially liked it a lot but what REALLY puts me off is why is everybody so goddamn emotional 100% of the time. There is nearly 0 dialogues when someone isn't hurt by mildly unkind words. Conphas has long since became my favorite character because he seems to be the only person in the nuthouse who is able to have a conversation without breaking into tears. That and him being a pretty hilarious IRL troll. I hope he gets to kick rear end and laugh at people if I ever continue reading. Do the books get better later in terms of people crying all the time?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 08:03
|
|
|
Sekenr posted:I only just started reading (now near the end of Warrior-Prophet), initially liked it a lot but what REALLY puts me off is why is everybody so goddamn emotional 100% of the time. There is nearly 0 dialogues when someone isn't hurt by mildly unkind words. Conphas has long since became my favorite character because he seems to be the only person in the nuthouse who is able to have a conversation without breaking into tears. That and him being a pretty hilarious IRL troll. I hope he gets to kick rear end and laugh at people if I ever continue reading. Do the books get better later in terms of people crying all the time? Yes, they do. Except Esmenet, she pretty much always sucks as a POV. As for Conphas, I can't say much without spoiling, but he stays awesome. Read on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 08:23
|
|
|
Sekenr posted:I only just started reading (now near the end of Warrior-Prophet), initially liked it a lot but what REALLY puts me off is why is everybody so goddamn emotional 100% of the time. There is nearly 0 dialogues when someone isn't hurt by mildly unkind words. Going by HEY GAL's posts in the various iterations of the A/T Military History thread, this is historically realistic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 08:25
|
|
|
Sekenr posted:I only just started reading (now near the end of Warrior-Prophet), initially liked it a lot but what REALLY puts me off is why is everybody so goddamn emotional 100% of the time. There is nearly 0 dialogues when someone isn't hurt by mildly unkind words. Conphas has long since became my favorite character because he seems to be the only person in the nuthouse who is able to have a conversation without breaking into tears. That and him being a pretty hilarious IRL troll. I hope he gets to kick rear end and laugh at people if I ever continue reading. Do the books get better later in terms of people crying all the time? Everyone in this world has severe PTSD, so....
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 14:04
|
|
|
Okay so I've been rereading the books before the new one comes out. I read the first three about a year before the fourth one came out, then read that when it was new. When the last one came out, I read it relying on the "what has come before" section to pull me up to speed, but I kept vaguely remembering things and people without the details. Before the next one I figured I should reacquaint myself with the story. I just finished The Warrior Prophet, and something is bothering me. To this point Kellhus hasn't learned sorcery, but multiple people have seen golden halos around his hands, starting with Serwe alone (easily dismissed as delusions) and going to the thousands who see it after the circumfixion. Just like the halos depicted around the hands of Inri Sejunis. So is that just people seeing what they want to see, or is this something more?
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 01:13
|
|
|
vortmax posted:Okay so I've been rereading the books before the new one comes out. I read the first three about a year before the fourth one came out, then read that when it was new. When the last one came out, I read it relying on the "what has come before" section to pull me up to speed, but I kept vaguely remembering things and people without the details. Before the next one I figured I should reacquaint myself with the story. I had been wondering if it was some illusion he was pulling off by being an ubermensch, but it definitely seems like they are real halos.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 01:17
|
|
|
I think it's suggested a few times that Kellhus shifts himself or changes where he's standing to better take advantage of natural light and the perspective of others.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 01:26
|
|
|
The Ninth Layer posted:I think it's suggested a few times that Kellhus shifts himself or changes where he's standing to better take advantage of natural light and the perspective of others. I thought in The Great Ordeal it was clearly visible in the tent when he speaks with Proyas. Do you think he is just using sorcery then?
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 01:29
|
|
|
Well yeah by that point I think he's using sorcery in a more direct fashion. I just remember a few early scenes in Warrior-Prohpet told from Kellhus' point of view where he's aware of how the light is hitting him and takes advantage of it, the haloed hands could be a similar effect amplified by people believing he's a prohpet and looking for signs of it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 01:40
|
|
|
No comments on Neuropath because I haven't read it, but I really don't think Bakker is a misogynist, even if he ultimately failed to convey whatever he wanted to in TSA. He goes to great lengths to describe how evil the Dunyain and the Inchoroi are, and makes it very clear that Earwa works based off scriptural principles that makes women objectively inferior to men because men wrote the rules. I don't agree that his personal philosophy can be diluted into misogyny offhandedly either. maybe Neuropath would break that idea for me though, IDK. I've heard it is pretty squicky. TSA is definitely a flawed series. Beyond the fact that I think Bakker fails to clearly convey one of his most important messages, or does as of TGO, I feel like the Aspect Emperor series in particular has a lot of fat that could have been trimmed in the editorial process. Theliopa was basically a pointless inclusion in the series and it seems like a lot of plot points just won't be elaborated upon. If Meppa doesn't have an at least secondary role in TUC, he will become the official Boba Fett of the series. I can see this fate easily befalling several other characters and story threads. Despite that, I think it's one of the most cerebral fantasy series ever written, and Bakker's prose and world-building are unequaled IMO. I look forward to TUC and I hope that it's a worthy send-off to the series. Personally, I think Kelmomas will become the No-God. There's a two chapter excerpt (though I think a few pages are cropped from both chapters) available here if you click Preview: https://www.kobo.com/nl/en/ebook/the-unholy-consult Tosk fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jun 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 02:08
|
|
|
I remember it being clearly implied that at some point he himself sees the halos. Also Serwe sees them on the skinspy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 02:10
|
|
|
Tosk posted:No comments on Neuropath because I haven't read it, but I really don't think Bakker is a misogynist, even if he ultimately failed to convey whatever he wanted to in TSA. He goes to great lengths to describe how evil the Dunyain and the Inchoroi are, and makes it very clear that Earwa works based off scriptural principles that makes women objectively inferior to men because men wrote the rules. I don't agree that his personal philosophy can be diluted into misogyny offhandedly either. maybe Neuropath would break that idea for me though, IDK. I've heard it is pretty squicky.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 17:26
|
|
|
danger-carpet posted:He's no misogynist, but he's fully internalised the whole PUA philosophy that we're all social robots a player can beep-boop and get the results they want out of. He's just inverted the order of rank from Alpha to Beta; he thinks men are born rapists and that they should hate themselves for it instead of embracing it like Roosh V. I haven't read Neuropath or any of Bakker's personal writings. Are those where he confirms that he believes PUA philosophy?
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
I think Kellhus is supposed to be the PUA in that analogy. Not sure, I think that he is getting at a deeper idea than that, but maybe I am giving him and his series more  depth than I should. He seems to play a little bit with some of the ideas about cognition that Peter Watts does in Blindsight. In Watts' extensive appendix about his sources at the end of that book, he talks about a [very dense] book called Being No One by a philosopher called Thomas Metzinger, and it reminds deeply of Bakker's blind brain theory, maybe organized in a slightly less dodgy manner, albeit no less esoteric. I certainly could never read the thing to be able to talk about it as if I understood all of its ideas.Of course, I then googled "Metzinger Bakker Being No One" to see if RL confirmed my theory, and all I found is a quote about Metzinger praising Neuropath, so maybe the trial has broken me
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 23:23
|
|
|
R. Scott Bakker makes Guy Gavriel Kay seem like a good writer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 23:51
|
|
|
Chichevache posted:I haven't read Neuropath or any of Bakker's personal writings. Are those where he confirms that he believes PUA philosophy? He doesn't, at least not in the sense of being a PUA. But he thinks that to some degree men are biologically compelled to rape, that male sexuality is inherently predatory. He thinks that rape culture is basically an evolutionary trait, which explains why it appears in nearly every human culture. He explains a lot of it here: https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/cross-eyed-crosshair-crossfire/#comment-7894 quote:For me, the subtexts are so obvious that it often makes me wince. I have a very grim, very pessimistic view of male sexuality. In NP, for instance, one of the ‘future facts’ referenced is the discovery of a ‘rape module’ in male brains. It seems to be the case, for instance, that ‘male sexual vigilance’ is keyed to unconscious estimations of female vulnerability, that some men, at least, seem to track women according to automatic estimates of their ‘rapability.’ As dismaying as this possibility is, it seems to make a whole helluva lot of evolutionary sense, and to fit with observations of sexual violence that have transformed our understanding of chimps and dolphins, for instance. The point, at every turn, is to poke the reader and say, some part of this is you, some part of you likes this, irrespective of what you shout. So far, so Andrea Dworkin. But then his Semantic Apocalypse takes over and it goes all nihilistic: quote:What makes this tack important, from a literary perspective, is the simple fact that given contemporary trends, the FUTURE WILL BE MORE AND MORE PORNOGRAPHIC. Why? Because we, as a species, lack the conceptual resources to make any argument regarding moral conduct outside instances of obvious harm stick. So as technologically mediated social change renders traditional imperatives obsolete, biological and commercial imperatives rise more and more to the fore, and acts that would have seen people burned at the stake mere centuries ago are sanctioned for the simple fact that the parties engaged are mutually consenting. Male sexual desire becomes an unsublimated market, gathering more and more resources, which leverage more and more commercially advantageous imperatives. He uses a lot of the same language as PUAs, it's clear his conceptualising sex in the same terms as them, even if he's come to a completely different conclusion. It's worth reading his replies to a (pretty poor) takedown of the above link: https://fozmeadows.wordpress.com/2012/04/27/the-problem-of-r-scott-bakker/ I think he does a pretty good job of defending his position and what he's trying to do with these books, but then this happens: quote:You may think more of the same is the solution. I’m gambling otherwise. You may think my bait and switch method is ‘reprehensible,’ but I think, in the case of Neuropath at least, it has been quite effective. Neuropath caters to the pornographic sensibilities of men to shake them up, to twist and to problematize. Genre is all about giving readers what they want. Literature is all about making them think about what they have been given. I try to do both… entirely aware that I will fall on my face for a good number of readers – as I have here! He's basically a crochety old academic - treating rape and misogyny as abstract intellectual problems to be solved with logic and rationality, not this womanly nonsense. He views a lot of the ideas of feminism (or at least feminist fiction) as presenting "false exits" that aren't going to produce meaningful results. And combined with his refusal to properly engage with modern feminism it's unsurprising that people get loving pissed off with him. This is the only part of the accusations of misogyny that I think hold's water - Bakker's brand of feminism does not involve women. And this *is* a huge flaw in the series. I genuinely think that Esmenet's struggle against oppression is well written and broadly feminist, in particular her contradictory relationship to prostitution, her how she's clearly highly intelligent yet woefully educated, the way she's only able to gain power by association with a man (and how much this loving grates on her) etc. But the rest of the series treats women as objects, not just physical objects and sex objects, but grammatical objects. Stuff is always done to women by men. He's trying to make all these arguments about power and misogyny, and how women are always going to be trapped by sexual violence, but for the most part he's just not interested in telling the women's story. There was a Reddit AMA with him a few months ago, and his response to the question "Why were there no female Quya (non-men sorcerers)" is absolutely damning: quote:You know what, this question has just never occurred to me
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 20:50
|
|
|
Okay I thought for sure this had been some kind of delusion Kellhus had after being cut down, but the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires saw it too?quote:“And Prince Kellhus?” Iyokus asked. vortmax fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jun 19, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 01:51
|
|
|
In the same way there are no female Inchoroi. Bakker doesn't really conceive of female sexuality as something active and agentic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 02:19
|
|
|
vortmax posted:Okay I thought for sure this had been some kind of delusion Kellhus had after being cut down, but the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires saw it too? I'm pretty sure Bakker was pretty explicit that it is Serwe's heart.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 02:54
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:In the same way there are no female Inchoroi. Bakker doesn't really conceive of female sexuality as something active and agentic. I'm not entirely sure how the High Priestess of Yatwer fits into this, mind. Who is incidentally one of my favorite characters.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 03:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 17:49 |
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:I'm not entirely sure how the High Priestess of Yatwer fits into this, mind. "Soft earth, plowed deep" or whatever. Neither active nor agentic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 04:50
|
|