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Bruceski posted:The plot hurts worse than that analogy. Yeah, that was a pretty lovely analogy.
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Jun 18, 2017 00:35
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Endorph posted:It actually wasn't. The original drafts Kobayashi sent in didn't have anything at all about valla or mycastle or water demons. That's part of why Azura has like two separate backstories, one that kinda makes sense and one that doesn't have anything to do with anything. It doesn't help that they outsourced Revelation to the same people who did supports. AKA people who had nothing to do with either of the previous main plots. Fates: The writing is bad.
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Jun 18, 2017 00:40
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chiasaur11 posted:It doesn't help that they outsourced Revelation to the same people who did supports. AKA people who had nothing to do with either of the previous main plots. Who wrote the later DLC? Because it continues on with Revelation's themes and plot points, but is a lot more refined. If nothing else, their writing improved with experience.
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Jun 18, 2017 01:00
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chiasaur11 posted:It doesn't help that they outsourced Revelation to the same people who did supports. AKA people who had nothing to do with either of the previous main plots. I guess as a writer, my next question is "how complete were the other two storylines when Revelation was written, and how much was the other studio told about them?"
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Jun 18, 2017 01:02
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Endorph posted:conquest is a way better game than revelations even with my criticism of its gameplay. revelations has some of the worst gameplay design in the series. it's basically the world's first fire emblem fates romhack. and not the good kind. DIFFERENT DIMENSION VALLA PRINCESS So Revelation makes Conquest Azura turn out to be even more callous and stupid, given her chair plan was not only done after she had the perfect opportunity to tell Corrine the full, complete story, but by the end, she's gotten an entire kingdom devastated, meaning it's likely now all ready for Anankos to destroy. She basically gift wrapped him a victory. At least I think she did, if they ever properly explained the extent of how Anankos' men can exit Valla into the real world, and exactly what degree of a threat they pose. Also, I was smart enough not to buy the game, and immediately download the other routes! I pre-ordered and got the $120AU Special Edition instead. 
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Jun 18, 2017 01:23
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I mean, people kinda overstate the 'other company wrote the revelations plot' stuff. They had to be told all the major bits and pieces because there's so much foreshadowing of that stuff in conquest/birthright. All the company they outsourced to did was connect the dots inbetween the plot points they were told to write.
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Jun 18, 2017 01:44
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Okay, it's been a decent length since the last time I asked this, and we've received a bit of new information from mid-Conquest into to start-of-Revelations, so I think this is an opportune time to ask this again: Without major changes, how would you change the plot to be better?
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Jun 18, 2017 01:49
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  Still only the three from last chapter, though I can deploy four technically.   Our enemies may use the shadows to ambush us.  This is kinda sort of like Fog of War, but not. Enemies don't exist until you enter a new area, so in practice it's just navigating through reinforcements.   Entering the wrong entrance activates a teleporter that bounces you back into the room. It doesn't really do anything.   Corrine enters the other entrance and reveals some enemies.   As you can see, it's virtually impossible for Corrine to die on this map with Jakob's -3 damage PSkill.   Next room has a ninja, but a ninja without skills (especially Poison Strike) are no more threatening than any other range unit. In this case, 0 damage.   Let me tell you. This is one of my longest turns taken for a mission for all the wrong reasons.   Now there's something. Corrine stumbles onto some treasure chests here.   And just enough keys for each chest, and the rewards here are pretty drat good. Rescue and Mend Staff, along with an Armorslayer. Fates just loves giving early Armorslayers.   The top of the area leads to even more enemies and a chest. Not sure if Knights are supposed to be threatening when Corrine will always have the Dragonstone. Even Jakob does 10+ damage before debuffs.   The reward here is a Steel Sword. I guess it saves some money.  One of the few things consistent I guess?  Lady Corrine!! Gunter! Is that really you?! And you're alive?! I am. I lost consciousness as I fell, and when I awoke, I was here. I have no idea how I survived such a fall... But I swear on my blade I'm no ghost. My arms and legs are as sturdy as ever. It's good to see you in one piece, Gunter. I'm so glad we found you. I would love to celebrate, milady, but it appears we don't have time right now...   Woof. Those stats are...not encouraging for someone with basically zero growths.   5k gold here.   I understand that they didn't want to overwhelm you because you just have three units but come on. The recommendation is playing through both routes first, or at least one. Also a Killing Edge is here because Corrine needs all the swords??   It's the final room, yay! ....This boss doesn't move and doesn't have a two range weapon. Really?  I can't remember the last time I ever went above 30. Stats update  ->  ->  ->
Tae fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Jun 18, 2017 |
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Jun 18, 2017 02:37
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For those playing along at home, the paths with barely-visible branches in front of them are the trap ones.
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Jun 18, 2017 02:42
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Forgive me if you mentioned it and I just didn't catch it, but did you change the boon/bane of this Corrine?
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Jun 18, 2017 02:46
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There's an azuramad: and a guntersmile: in there, Tae.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:10
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BrightWing posted:Forgive me if you mentioned it and I just didn't catch it, but did you change the boon/bane of this Corrine? Uh, +strength -luck I guess?
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Jun 18, 2017 03:25
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Endorph posted:It actually wasn't. The original drafts Kobayashi sent in didn't have anything at all about valla or mycastle or water demons. That's part of why Azura has like two separate backstories, one that kinda makes sense and one that doesn't have anything to do with anything.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:25
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I'm shocked that you managed to keep Corrine's level that low.
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Jun 18, 2017 05:10
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Junpei posted:Okay, it's been a decent length since the last time I asked this, and we've received a bit of new information from mid-Conquest into to start-of-Revelations, so I think this is an opportune time to ask this again: Without major changes, how would you change the plot to be better? Cut the premonition from the prologue. We already have a tutorial chapter immediately afterwards, and it undercuts all the tension of picking a side (while also making the player even more inclined towards Hoshido than they already would be). Garon can still be evil but make him be less petty about it. Actually explain why Nohr wants or needs to fight in order to survive. Maybe Ganglari could look less obviously evil while we're at it? Have Hans not explain Garon's whole evil plan to Corrin and just knock him into the bottomless canyon rather than have the sword throw him in??? Have Corrin land in Valla and be rescued by Lilith there rather than dragged into a different secret dragon dimension. Give the player some evidence to suggest the Hoshidans might not be entirely honest with them - possibly playing on the giant gently caress-off mind control barrier Mikoto apparently has? - and have the flashback to Sumeragi's death be Ryoma explaining what happened rather than objectively what Corrin remembers, so Garon is less obviously evil. Make Mikoto's death less obviously a setup by Garon. Maybe the mystery swordsman just grabs Ganglari with his magic and goes to attack Corrin rather than making it explode or whatever. It would take a lot more work to unfuck everything after the routes split, but making Nohr less obviously evil and Hoshido somewhat more grounded gives you a reasonable base to work on.
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Jun 18, 2017 05:17
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Wow, there's not even a challenge on the map, it's just pure tedium.
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Jun 18, 2017 06:15
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blizzardvizard posted:Wow, there's not even a challenge on the map, it's just pure tedium. Welcome to Revelations, please enjoy your stay!
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Jun 18, 2017 06:23
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I just have no idea why they'd make it a "fog of war" map that... isn't. I mean, I hate fog of war (especially Fire Emblem fog of war) like any rational person, but what the hell was the point of that? If you're gonna make a fog of war map make a fog of war map. I've heard people call this map hard, and... how? I mean, I didn't play this on lunatic, just hard, but still... it takes forever so if you gently caress up on classic you've wasted a good chunk of time. That's about it.
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Jun 18, 2017 07:26
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I'm also baffled by the "some paths are best not taken" thing. Like not having bought all three of these games???
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Jun 18, 2017 10:53
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So, does anyone remember that chapter in Part 3 of Radiant Dawn where Elincia has to decide between Ike's Laguz Alliance and Begnion? There's this cool story moment where Elincia goes out to the middle of the two armies and lays down her sword proclaiming that Crimea is neutral and won't choose a side. Ike's side is chill with that because they are The Good Guys and Begnion attacks because they are The Baddies. There's obvious parallels to what Corrin(e) does in Revelations, but it's all done incompetently. I guess Fates's MO at this point is just "stuff other FEs have done, but worse".
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Jun 18, 2017 15:42
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 I'm glad to see you too, Lady Corrine... After I fell, I truly thought I'd never see your face again. It seems you've grown stronger while we've been apart, as well... I guess 7 levels IS shocking to see a difference of. Also, becoming a dragon but we never mention that.   Can you give me back the time I wasted grieving over your demise?It wouldn't be much time considering the only time he would learn of Gunter's fall would be right after chapter 6. Hmph... You haven't changed. It wouldn't hurt for you to be kinder. But, why are you all here? I brought them. And who are you?  Ah! Yes, I remember when you were little. I apologize for my failure to protect you from your Hoshidan kidnappers...Remember when Gunter specifically recognized Azura as a former daughter of Nohr in Conquest? (This is a trick question).  There is no need to apologize, really... It doesn't matter at the moment. I'd rather learn how you've survived here. You are quite the knight to have avoided meeting a terrible fate. You seem familiar with this place, Lady Azura. Where are we, exactly?  It is ruled by Anankos, who wishes to destroy the entire world. So long as he remains in the Vallite throne, the world will not know peace. Listen up, gramps. I'm only going to warn you once. If you talk about any of this while not in Valla, a curse will dissolve you! What?! is that possible? It seems so.  "You're stuck in a strange dimension where talking about it will kill you. Also, I accidentally waged war against the entire continent. That one was my fault." I couldn't bring myself to side against either of them, so both turned on me. Whenever we meet next, it will be a difficult fight. Will you stand with me? Of course, Lady Corrine. I shall always remain at your side. Thank you, Gunter.  I guess it's kinda true. Gunter only lost because of a rickety bridge falling under him. Ah, that reminds me: Hans said something strange. He claimed he was following King Garon's orders by attacking you. Oh hey, info literally never brought up before. This is a new phenomenon.  Despises you? Why? After being honored for valor in battle, I was granted an audience with King Garon. He offered me dragon's blood; accepting would require absolute loyalty to the king. It would have meant becoming his most trusted retainer, the highest of positions. However, it also would have meant leaving my homeland, my wife, and my child.  I wanted to live a normal life. I begged for his understanding. I will never forget his resentment...his rage. I didn't know... The way it was written, it's almost like none of this existed until Revelations.   The semi-transparent people! Now it all makes sense!   You should not be here. What the— Who are you?! I am a mage of Valla... You were warned. Vallite warriors, eliminate them. This is bad... I don't think we're strong enough to defeat them. Let's retreat to the other world!  "I know a safe place to be. A place that I explained is taken over completely by an evil god." *Corrine and the others return back*  Who was that woman down there? She said she was a mage... ...   Then the door will spawn. Huh? Is that a poem, Azura? My mother... She said those words to me a long time ago. She said that when dawn turns to dusk, and dusk turns to dawn... The pass in the Bottomless Canyon opens or closes.  So we're about three games in and nobody still has remotely explained anywhere how or why Nohr has literal infinite night. If I remember right, that should happen a few months from now. Yes. I'm sure that's the sign that the pass down there has opened or closed. Since we're obviously able to travel there now, it will close next time. Once it closes, it will stay that way for decades. We won't be able to get there... We don't have much time.  Still better than the chair plan. But how can we convince them? We can't tell them the truth! We'll just have to find another way. It's the only chance we have. Now that I know there is a common enemy for both countries to fight... I think we can save Nohr and Hoshido.  Maximum Fire Emblem recruitment powers, engaged! Corrine... I suppose you're right. I felt so powerless on my own, but together we might be able to pull something off! Nothing will change if we stay here. Let's return to Hoshido first. I feel like they might be more willing to listen to us.
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Jun 18, 2017 15:48
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Junpei posted:Okay, it's been a decent length since the last time I asked this, and we've received a bit of new information from mid-Conquest into to start-of-Revelations, so I think this is an opportune time to ask this again: Without major changes, how would you change the plot to be better? This probably isn't possible. Rehabilitating the plot of Fates means making Hoshido less cartoonishly good and Nohr less cartoonishly evil, and that requires some pretty drat major changes.
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Jun 18, 2017 17:01
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Birthright is a fairly easy fix, as it's not too far off a standard FE plot and is by far the most coherently written of the three routes to begin with. Just emphasize some of the more morally grey elements already there if you want, and tidy up some of the loose plot ends. There is stuff like Yukimura orchestrating the kidnapping of Azura already present, so it's not like there's absolutely nothing to go on already. Oh, and Flora actually joins the goddamn party, as opposed to that idiotic ending to the Ice Tribe map. Conquest is a complete lost cause without a major rewrite though. Everything from the plot to the characters to the goddamn flow progression of battles is an utter mess. Even ignoring the idiocy of stuff like the Chair Plan or the comically evil Garon, we have nonsense like the battle where we get Azura, wherein some renegade troop of Hoshidan soldiers has dragged her into a fortress deep inside Nohr for no understandable reason. Or another example, Ryoma and company chilling inside Garon's summer palace, and again no attention whatsoever is paid as to what the hell they're doing there, deep across the border. There also needs to be a heavy reexamining of all the gimmicks, and either be less of them and space them out better, or heavily revise them. Because poo poo like the kitsune gimmick or pots are just stupid. Lilith should probably either be completely excised from the plot, getting rid of that stupid plot death from both routes, or actually have something of a presence besides that single scene at the beginning of the game. And probably still not die that stupid plot death. Revelations is... well, we'll see.
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Jun 18, 2017 17:24
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i once heard it said that video game plots are just collections of things that happen with no logic or throughline connecting them, and while i felt that was pretty harsh it's an incredibly accurate criticism of fates' plot. even in birthright, but especially in conquest and revelation, things just kind of happen, they're forgotten about, and then the next thing happens. super mario brothers 3 has a more logical progression of narrative
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Jun 18, 2017 17:39
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Camel Pimp posted:I just have no idea why they'd make it a "fog of war" map that... isn't. I mean, I hate fog of war (especially Fire Emblem fog of war) like any rational person, but what the hell was the point of that? If you're gonna make a fog of war map make a fog of war map. This cave spelunking is really strange but if there had to be a fog of war map then this is a pretty good take on it, all things considered. It reminds me of previous games that had indoor maps with locked rooms that you couldn't see inside until you sent someone to open the door. If enemies don't move until you walk into the room, whatever you reveal will be a lot more manageable than, say, flying units launching sneak attacks on your frail units from outside Fire Emblem's miserable (three tile!) line of sight. Yes, I'm bitter. 30 turns is pretty extreme, but I'd chalk that up to the size of the player's "army" at this point. With a larger army you'd be able to follow up with attacks on the revealed enemies but here you only have two other units.
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Jun 18, 2017 17:42
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actually, the map sucks and goes on way too long and there's basically no tactical decisions to be made.
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Jun 18, 2017 17:46
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I still like the idea of it, though. Yeah it's a shame that you only have three units, and that view of the map makes it look nonlinear so exploring would be a pain, but if you had a proper army that could split into two groups and attack enemies the same turn they were revealed it wouldn't be that long or that bad.
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Jun 18, 2017 18:00
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Endorph posted:i once heard it said that video game plots are just collections of things that happen with no logic or throughline connecting them, and while i felt that was pretty harsh it's an incredibly accurate criticism of fates' plot. even in birthright, but especially in conquest and revelation, things just kind of happen, they're forgotten about, and then the next thing happens. super mario brothers 3 has a more logical progression of narrative It is harsh for some games, but not this one. It's more like a bad episodic show where all that matters is what happens in the current episode.
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Jun 18, 2017 18:05
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inthesto posted:This probably isn't possible. Personally, I'd probably start by just throwing the "pick a side" gimmick out entirely and just focus everything on making whichever route they decide to keep as good as possible (both plot AND gameplay). For starters: Internal consistency is a GOOD thing (such as acknowledging the protagonist is a dragon in more than one or two throwaway lines). Also: Kill Hans early on. He contributes nothing of value to the plot after about chapter 3 (where he deliberately escalates tensions between nations to the point of open warfare, and I guess maybe attacking Gunter might count if you stretch it?). Yes, I know I've said "eliminate routes" before (and that doing so is, in fact, a major change, since you're discarding two-thirds of the game), but I really think that gimmick kills Fates' plot. For one, it means they have to write not one, but THREE stories, starting from the same point, and force them all into the "save the world" ending regardless of plausibility because this is Fire Emblem. For another, they have to try to keep details in those three stories consistent (which they failed pretty horribly at, since there were so many plot points and one-off gimmicks being thrown around, and what few WERE consistent often lost context in at least one route). And let us not forget the corner they wrote themselves into by making Hoshido "Pure Good" and Nohr "Villains Inc." while still wanting to give players a Nohr route (a problem which has already been mentioned). I really think that, if they hadn't overextended themselves by trying to split one game into three, they might've actually managed to make the plot tolerable... but then, considering the sheer, unmitigated stupidity Fates as a whole is, that's still not certain. On the bright side (from an in-character point of view): We might finally have a chance to do something about those things that killed Mikoto now that we're doing the Valla route. Too bad they dump all this "it's not Nohr or Hoshido's fault this war started, it's this random villain who only exists outside of Garon's insane rambling in this one route" thing on us so suddenly; they don't even bother foreshadowing it, unless you count that battle in the capital (what was its name again?). By the way, I've made up my mind on what's stupidest so far: While the "pick a fight with EVERYONE" idea was stupid, it's not like they had any time to think about it. The Chair Plan, on the other hand, was decided on literally NINE CHAPTERS IN ADVANCE (I went to the trouble of finding out exactly when it happened), and they never even considered that it might be a bad idea for any of a number of reasons (the throne's power being pure myth and/or exhausted before the start of the game, Garon just not sitting in the thing, the siblings being so brainwashed that they'd STILL side with Gooron, Garon potentially not operating alone, the mere fact that they could LOSE- either before getting there or to Gooron...). Therefore, I have decided that The Chair is worse. Still a pretty close call, though. "Dive into the canyon" is pretty bad, admittedly, but at least there they have the excuse of "the character who's telling us to do this went first." Doesn't improve it much, but it does make it slightly LESS stupid.
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Jun 18, 2017 18:11
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"So you know this day/night divide that affects the kingdoms' availability of food/et cetera and was kinda a factor behind the whole war (other than Garon being a goo-dad)? Turns out it's gonna swap in a few months and nobody saw fit to comment on this,"
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Jun 18, 2017 18:30
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Bruceski posted:"So you know this day/night divide that affects the kingdoms' availability of food/et cetera and was kinda a factor behind the whole war (other than Garon being a goo-dad)? Turns out it's gonna swap in a few months and nobody saw fit to comment on this," I assume* that's it's not THAT stupid and it's just a brief span of time. As in, when Hoshido gets a solar eclipse Nohr gets an anti-eclipse somehow. *someone point and laugh at my post if it IS that stupid please
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Jun 18, 2017 18:50
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quote:
Or possibly it's the fact that you attacked both their armies corrine? You know, with deadly weapons? Pointed at the very people you said you couldn't fight when you refused to pick a side? Our heroine ladies and gents
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Jun 18, 2017 19:25
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Omobono posted:I assume* that's it's not THAT stupid and it's just a brief span of time. As in, when Hoshido gets a solar eclipse Nohr gets an anti-eclipse somehow. No, that is exactly it. Every 40 years, Nohr gets a moment of good weather and Hoshido gets a moment of bad, then their weather reverts to normal for the next 40 years. That's when the door to Valla will open or close. Problem is, this just makes everything even dumber, since it means that Nohr has perpetually bad weather and Hoshido, instead of helping them, just goes "lol, suckz to be you" and does nothing (outside of Ryoma's support with Silas, but we've been over how that doesn't matter to the story). Why would you set up a kingdom in Nohr? Why would people live there? Why won't Hoshido help? These are all questions the game refuses to answer. Oh, and if this needs to be spoiler tagged, since I'm not sure if it does or not, someone tell me. Don't want to give everything away before the game dumps more dumb onto us.
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Jun 18, 2017 19:29
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Inferno-sama posted:No, that is exactly it. Every 40 years, Nohr gets a moment of good weather and Hoshido gets a moment of bad, then their weather reverts to normal for the next 40 years. That's when the door to Valla will open or close. Problem is, this just makes everything even dumber, since it means that Nohr has perpetually bad weather and Hoshido, instead of helping them, just goes "lol, suckz to be you" and does nothing (outside of Ryoma's support with Silas, but we've been over how that doesn't matter to the story). Why would you set up a kingdom in Nohr? Why would people live there? Why won't Hoshido help? These are all questions the game refuses to answer. At least Skies of Arcadia, which similarly has a nation shrouded in eternal storms, points out that the constant rain is good for crops, and that nation does pretty well for itself.
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Jun 18, 2017 19:34
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Cythereal posted:At least Skies of Arcadia, which similarly has a nation shrouded in eternal storms, points out that the constant rain is good for crops, and that nation does pretty well for itself. But how do they get around the reduced amount of sunlight for the crops? Surely that would be problem, right?
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Jun 18, 2017 19:35
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Cross between mushrooms (low light) and rice (wetness/staple crop)? Weird fantasy plants like dwarf fortress??
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Jun 18, 2017 20:04
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It's never really addressed, IIRC. You never go anywhere in that nation besides their capital city and fortress guarding the only way in. Every nation had something weird going on with its environment, though, for magical reasons - each was powerfully affected by a magical element, and that particular nation's element was lightning. So 24/7 thunderstorms.
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Jun 18, 2017 20:16
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Inferno-sama posted:But how do they get around the reduced amount of sunlight for the crops? Surely that would be problem, right? A focus on factories and mining, a strong class system so the nobles get the hard-to-obtain resources while the trash just gets enough to survive, and a strong imperial agenda allowing them to loot other continents.
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Jun 18, 2017 20:36
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Azura and Corrine should have written a note about the invisible kingdom and had Garon read it out loud. Boom, murderdad dissolves, and Conquest ends like 15 chapters sooner.
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Jun 18, 2017 21:51
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U-DO Burger posted:Azura and Corrine should have written a note about the invisible kingdom and had Garon read it out loud. Boom, murderdad dissolves, and Conquest ends like 15 chapters sooner.
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Jun 18, 2017 22:16
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