p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

hackbunny posted:

an investigative journalist turned his skin black (temporarily) to live as an african-american for a few weeks. he wrote a book about his experience titled Black Like Me
no idea about the 91 grand am

i guess kinda like G�nter Wallraff pretending to be a Turkish "guest worker" in Germany 1985?

# ? Jun 19, 2017 00:32

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# ? May 22, 2024 11:03

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Dad, Dad, why did you let that man
Push you around like that?
You should have beat him down
Down to the ground
Down to the ground for that

He said son, you're still young
And you always jump the gun

There's real people in the big, big trucks
That you flip off when they get in your way
You get so hacked that you pay no mind
To the great big sign that says 'oversize load'

Do you really think they can go as fast
As you in your '87 Trans Am?
They know you're in such a terrible rush
But they're going just as fast, as fast as they can

Dad, Dad, I really don't understand
What driving big trucks has to do with that man
You shoulda' taught him a lesson about being rude
About talking to you with such an attitude

He said son, you're still young
And you always jump the gun

There's real people in the big, big trucks
That you flip off when they get in your way
You get so hacked that you pay no mind
To the great big sign that says 'oversize load'

Do you really think they can go as fast
As you in your '87 Trans Am?
They know you're in such a terrible rush
But they're going just as fast, as fast as they can

# ? Jun 19, 2017 00:34

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

Plorkyeran posted:

google seems to do this all the time, so we just need to convince them to use a bit more scientific rigor

in conclusion, the choice of programming language is irrelevant to the success of the project, because all efforts are doomed to founder in a swamp of incoherent project management and increasingly bureaucratic interdepartmental sniping about code style

# ? Jun 19, 2017 00:55

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

rjmccall posted:

in conclusion, the choice of programming language is irrelevant to the success of the project, because all efforts are doomed to founder in a swamp of incoherent project management and increasingly bureaucratic interdepartmental sniping about code style

# ? Jun 19, 2017 01:17

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

rjmccall posted:

in conclusion, the choice of programming language is irrelevant to the success of the project, because all efforts are doomed to founder in a swamp of incoherent project management and increasingly bureaucratic interdepartmental sniping about code style

# ? Jun 19, 2017 01:22

Lutha Mahtin: Oct 10, 2010; Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

cis autodrag posted:

beat up 90s gms are the official car of the ghetto because you can buy em for 500 bux cash and fix them with junk yard parts yourself. they attract police attention. dwb is a crime in most major cities.

when i was a bit younger it was 1980s american full-size sedans. i got SO many parking lot offers to buy my old 83 caprice classic back when i had it

# ? Jun 19, 2017 01:49

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

rjmccall posted:

in conclusion, the choice of programming language is irrelevant to the success of the project, because all efforts are doomed to founder in a swamp of incoherent project management and increasingly bureaucratic interdepartmental sniping about code style

this has been my position all along :toot:

Here's a throwback to one of my favorite white papers from a consulting group that's definitely not the most trustable thing, but does align with my points super well so why the hell not.

MononcQc posted:

Related: The Impact of Business Requirements on the Success of Technology Projects by IAG.

quote:
The Business Analysis Benchmark report presents the findings from surveys of over 100 companies and definitive statistics on the importance and impact of business requirements on enterprise success with technology projects. The survey focused on larger companies and looked at development projects in excess of $250,000 where significant new functionality was delivered to the organization. The average project size was $3 million.

[...]

The report finds 2 basic scenarios for companies:

Scenario 1 (68% of companies): project success is �Improbable�: Projects might succeed � but not by
design. Based on the competencies present, these companies are statistically unlikely to have a successful
project. 68% of companies fit this scenario.

Scenario 2 (32% of companies): project success is �Probable�: Companies that can expect to have successful projects, by design, due to the investments that they have made in Business requirements process. 32% of companies fit this scenario

[...]

The following are a few key findings in the study:

Companies with poor business analysis capability will have three times as many project failures as successes.

68% of companies are more likely to have a marginal project or outright failure than a success due to the way they approach business analysis. In fact, 50% of this group�s projects were �runaways� which had any 2 of:

Taking over 180% of target time to deliver

Consuming in excess of 160% of estimated budget

Delivering under 70% of the target required functionality

Companies pay a premium of as much as 60% on time and budget when they use poor requirements practices on their projects.

Over 40% of the IT development budget for software, staff and external professional services will be consumed by poor requirements at the average company using average analysts versus the optimal organization.

The vast majority of projects surveyed did not utilize sufficient business analysis skill to consistently bring projects in on time and budget. The level of competency required is higher than that employed within projects for 70% of the companies surveyed.

Also other fun bits:

quote:
It is also true that people who see business requirements as simply a �deliverable� or written document of some kind will continue to fail. The findings clearly indicate that only companies which are committed to achieving excellence in business requirements through improvement involving people, process, and documentation/information quality standards will be consistently, predictably successful.

[...]

The data from this study demonstrates clearly that a project manager who believes the quality of requirements received is below average would be better served to REDO requirements than to proceed on a large project despite the uproar this decision would create with business stakeholders

[...]

In absolute terms, the quality of requirements will dictate the time and cost of the solution.

[...]

The focus of companies must shift to the quality of Requirements Discovery as a process and away from �Business Requirements� as a thing that either happened or didn�t at the beginning of a project if they hope to consistently deliver successful projects.

[...]

[...]

The risk key areas (in order of importance) from the research are:

Uncovering interdependencies

Setting unambiguous goals

Documenting information required to support the process

Improving the people, tools, and processes used in these areas will not guarantee success, but it does mitigate against failure

[...]

[...]

Effective scoping when combined with strong business requirements discovery skills yielded a successful project in 80% of circumstances

tl;dr: if IAG's stuff is to be trusted, your project is likely doomed before it even starts. Even when you've got 'excellent' requirements and analysis, ~30% of your projects will still fail. This is in big businesses, but projects that impact fewer people aren't immune to this at all.

# ? Jun 19, 2017 02:32

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

sometimes you want eval and sometimes you want it to be harder to break poo poo

# ? Jun 19, 2017 02:34

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

posting on the hacker page

# ? Jun 19, 2017 02:40

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

MononcQc posted:

tl;dr: if IAG's stuff is to be trusted, your project is likely doomed before it even starts. Even when you've got 'excellent' requirements and analysis, ~30% of your projects will still fail. This is in big businesses, but projects that impact fewer people aren't immune to this at all.

http://www.systemsguild.com/pdfs/DeMarcoNov2011.pdf

If a project offered a value of 10 times its estimated cost, no one would care if the actual cost to get it done were double the estimate. On the other hand, if expected value were only 10 percent greater than expected cost, lateness would be a disaster. Yes it would be a disaster, but instead of obsessing over �What�s the matter with those software folks who didn�t deliver on the schedule we gave them?� we need to ask instead �Why did we ever kick off a project with such marginal expected value?�

# ? Jun 19, 2017 02:57

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

Bloody posted:

posting on the hacker page

# ? Jun 19, 2017 02:59

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

tef posted:

http://www.systemsguild.com/pdfs/DeMarcoNov2011.pdf

If a project offered a value of 10 times its estimated cost, no one would care if the actual cost to get it done were double the estimate. On the other hand, if expected value were only 10 percent greater than expected cost, lateness would be a disaster. Yes it would be a disaster, but instead of obsessing over �What�s the matter with those software folks who didn�t deliver on the schedule we gave them?� we need to ask instead �Why did we ever kick off a project with such marginal expected value?�

^{_{That brings back a fun old e-mail chain}}

I also liked the way The Systems Bible (Systemantic) put it: "If it's worth doing at all, it's worth doing poorly", which I figure is meant to be interpreted as "the solution is so worthwhile that even if it's done poorly, it still has value".

# ? Jun 19, 2017 03:10

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

tef posted:

If a project offered a value of 10 times its estimated cost, no one would care if the actual cost to get it done were double the estimate.

lol

# ? Jun 19, 2017 03:59

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

i just recently finished up a project which is projected to earn back 13 times its estimated cost, and one of the things that nearly caused a project delay was a multi-month long fight over adding 25 cents to the bom cost (total bom cost was $41) because it wasnt in the original estimate

# ? Jun 19, 2017 04:07

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

the beancounters are running the asylum

# ? Jun 19, 2017 04:09

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

MononcQc posted:

this has been my position all along Here's a throwback to one of my favorite white papers from a consulting group that's definitely not the most trustable thing, but does align with my points super well so why the hell not.

this is interesting but i was specifically laughing at google

# ? Jun 19, 2017 05:05

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

i agree that ba's are champions and that everyone needs more of them

# ? Jun 19, 2017 07:43

Wheany: Mar 17, 2006; Spinya^{ha^{ha^haha}ha}ha_{ha_{ha_haha}ha}ha!; Doctor Rope

Bloody posted:

posting on the hacker page

# ? Jun 19, 2017 08:30

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

sometimes you want eval and sometimes you want it to be harder to break poo poo

certainly helps a lot if the system is designed in a way where it is clear to one and all that "this part is the skeleton of the system and must not be done haphazardly as it'll live forever and be used by all sorts of things" vs. "this part is the little specific realization i need for this task, and it is no big deal if i hack it up as it is an addition off to the side"

in fact it is a pretty deep annoyance when things get constrained to a level where the second case cannot even be argued, where one has strict rules applied equally to all parts, as it usually results in poor compliance in all parts

# ? Jun 19, 2017 09:09

Arcsech: Aug 5, 2008

MononcQc posted:

this has been my position all along Here's a throwback to one of my favorite white papers from a consulting group that's definitely not the most trustable thing, but does align with my points super well so why the hell not.

Also other fun bits:

tl;dr: if IAG's stuff is to be trusted, your project is likely doomed before it even starts. Even when you've got 'excellent' requirements and analysis, ~30% of your projects will still fail. This is in big businesses, but projects that impact fewer people aren't immune to this at all.

hey so I want to read this paper but the link is a 404

know of anywhere else to get it? google isn't really helping me here

# ? Jun 19, 2017 15:07

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

Arcsech posted:

hey so I want to read this paper but the link is a 404

know of anywhere else to get it? google isn't really helping me here

Oh that's an old post and I didn't check. http://docdro.id/q4GiBAk should be a valid mirror.

# ? Jun 19, 2017 15:27

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

Powaqoatse posted:

i guess kinda like G�nter Wallraff pretending to be a Turkish "guest worker" in Germany 1985?

or Fabrizio Gatti posing as an iraqi refugee to work as a tomato picking slave, and later as a kurdish refugee to document the immigration management system from the inside

# ? Jun 19, 2017 15:47

VikingofRock: Aug 24, 2008

Bloody posted:

posting on the hacker page

# ? Jun 19, 2017 16:47

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

compiler question: if you were interested in maximizing your trust in the compiler and its generated output, which optimization level would you use

# ? Jun 19, 2017 19:35

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

having to step through -O0 code is like watching the worst pedant imaginable interpret your code as slow as possible

sure, you can see every arg in a backtrace, but AT WHAT COST??

# ? Jun 19, 2017 19:53

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

Bloody posted:

compiler question: if you were interested in maximizing your trust in the compiler and its generated output, which optimization level would you use

there is no way to completely avoid having your broken, fraudulent code get miscompiled. even at -O0 most c/c++ compilers will do at least a few things that are only valid because of the u.b. rules, like re-using stack memory after it goes out of scope

with that said, inlining is the main thing that creates new problems at different optimization settings, because it's the main thing that creates new optimization opportunities. generally the optimizer will optimize something if it's happening within a single function and there's nothing in the function which blocks the optimization. inlining both makes brings more code into a single function and removes barriers that block optimizations. higher optimization settings generally correspond to more inlining. whole-module optimization is another thing to watch out for because code that's happily worked for years can suddenly get miscompiled when something gets inlined across files for the first time

if you're worried less about u.b. miscompilations but more about compiler bugs, that's different. stay away from gcc's -O3, i guess, which tends to have more experimental optimizations in it. otherwise compiler bugs tend to be in code that isn't specific to any particular optimization setting; they just lurk around waiting for the wrong combination of operations to trigger them

the main takeaway here is to never turn on more powerful optimizations right before release

# ? Jun 19, 2017 20:18

Ellie Crabcakes: Feb 1, 2008; Stop emailing my boyfriend Gay Crungus

rjmccall posted:

in conclusion, the choice of programming language is irrelevant to the success of the project, because all efforts are doomed to founder in a swamp of incoherent project management and increasingly bureaucratic interdepartmental sniping about code style

This is mostly true, but then again coldfusion

[edit] frperg unkbe zrffntr sbe gru yrrg

# ? Jun 20, 2017 07:47

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

John Big Booty posted:

This is mostly true, but then again coldfusion

[edit] frperg unkbe zrffntr sbe gru yrrg

are we posting rot13 now or something

# ? Jun 20, 2017 08:20

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

hackbunny posted:

or Fabrizio Gatti posing as an iraqi refugee to work as a tomato picking slave, and later as a kurdish refugee to document the immigration management system from the inside

But what programming language did he use?

# ? Jun 20, 2017 11:38

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

cinci zoo sniper posted:

are we posting rot13 now or something

bayl gur ryvgr ba gur unpxre cntr.

# ? Jun 20, 2017 15:56

Lutha Mahtin: Oct 10, 2010; Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

eww, usenet is leaking

# ? Jun 20, 2017 18:37

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

redleader posted:

i agree that ba's are champions and that everyone needs more of them

This can be true, otoh we have zero ba's and it works well too

# ? Jun 20, 2017 19:58

Ellie Crabcakes: Feb 1, 2008; Stop emailing my boyfriend Gay Crungus

cinci zoo sniper posted:

are we posting rot13 now or something

don't make me winnuke u

# ? Jun 20, 2017 23:15

Zemyla: Aug 6, 2008; I'll take her off your hands. Pleasure doing business with you!

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

sometimes you want eval and sometimes you want it to be harder to break poo poo

That's why you have strongly-typed eval.

# ? Jun 21, 2017 08:29

Workaday Wizard: Oct 23, 2009; by Pragmatica

Zemyla posted:

That's why you have strongly-typed eval.

that's... creative

# ? Jun 21, 2017 17:06

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

Zemyla posted:

That's why you have strongly-typed eval.

# ? Jun 21, 2017 19:23

Zemyla: Aug 6, 2008; I'll take her off your hands. Pleasure doing business with you!

The GHC runtime has within it a bytecode interpreter, which is normally used to make the built-in REPL work. Since GHC is written in Haskell, the hint library simply imports the same libraries and provides a programmer-usable interface to them.

What's more: Because the eval function requires the result to be a specific type, and requires you to explicitly import the libraries and functions you want visible from the expression you're evaluating, it's vastly safer than the equivalent in almost any other language.

# ? Jun 21, 2017 21:48