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Benny the Snake posted:Logan was a good movie in how it re-told a Western story in a heartbreaking way like how The Rook wowed by telling the old amnesia story from a different perspective. Genre fiction has no excuse for being derivative in any way, shape, or form Hahaha whaaaaaaat the heck? edit: what impatom said, just with more 
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Jun 14, 2017 07:25
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Logan didn't just rip off old Westerns, it quite helpfully told you the viewer exactly which western it was copying from. Lauding Logan, as excellent a movie as it was, as being apart from that lame derivative genre fiction is hilariously wrong. October Daye tells its noir PI inspired stories not for the mystery, but as a means of exploring the characters and the world they live in. And does that pretty successfully.
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Jun 14, 2017 08:01
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Drifter posted:Is that even a valid criticism for most UF? A good, challenging detective story? That's like saying you didn't like The Avengers movie because you knew Loki was the bad guy from the get go, no? I feel like an essential element of an A-list noir / crime novel is at least one or two good solid plot twists -- ok, sure, maybe you know who did it from the beginning, but there's some sort of major, surprising twist in how you get there. For example, the best twist I can think of among the big name urban fantasy right now is probably in the last third of Rivers of London, with the Punch and Judy show and the choice of end-book villain, but Dresden, Verus, and a number of others all manage to at least have a fair number of genuine surprises packed throughout. The first time you read Dead Beat, did anyone really expect Sue? October Daye . . . doesn't so much. It's good in other ways that balance it out and make it worth reading, but there are very few plot twists, and as I get more books into the series, each book ends up spending more and more time re-explaining exposition to various new characters and the plots seem to be more and more just disjointed hopping around until I hit 90% on kindle and finally everyone's in the right place at the right time and BAM story happens. On the other hand there are a lot worse things than a weak plot. It has good characterization, good prose, good world-building, and it does the San Fran setting really really well. Our Lady Protagonist is turning into a bit of a special unique magical flower over time but to her credit the author keeps that mostly in check and so she doesn't cross the line into Mary Sue territory (though she seems to come close once or twice), and the author also knows to keep her Dei Ex Machinae (Luidaeg, Amandine) mostly offstage most of the time. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 05:15
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A couple of good UF books by Christopher Moore. A Dirty Job is one of my favorites, and his San Francisco vampire series is fun, and a different approach to UF.
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Jun 15, 2017 05:44
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torgeaux posted:A couple of good UF books by Christopher Moore. A Dirty Job is one of my favorites, and his San Francisco vampire series is fun, and a different approach to UF. They're all in continuity with each other, so try to read them in published order.
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Jun 15, 2017 05:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I feel like an essential element of an A-list noir / crime novel is at least one or two good solid plot twists -- ok, sure, maybe you know who did it from the beginning, but there's some sort of major, surprising twist in how you get there. For example, the best twist I can think of among the big name urban fantasy right now is probably in the last third of Rivers of London, with the Punch and Judy show and the choice of end-book villain, but Dresden, Verus, and a number of others all manage to at least have a fair number of genuine surprises packed throughout. The first time you read Dead Beat, did anyone really expect Sue? I agree with you but almost no UF is crime noir except in setting. It's like you're bagging on Casablanca or Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid because they aren't Double Indemnity or something. For a book reference, The Last Hot Time is one of the best UF out there and it's got a pretty clear and nonconvoluted plot. I would strongly disagree that you need any sort of twist in an UF story to make it good, unless it specifically sells itself as a thriller/detective story, not merely having a *cough*detective as a main character. Drifter fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 06:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The first time you read Dead Beat, did anyone really expect Sue? From the moment the line "there's nothing stopping necromancers from using non-humans as zombies, they just tend to prefer humans" was there, after the murder-at-the-museum scene where Butcher went on for a bit about how Sue was the most-complete skeleton of a T-rex anywhere or whatever.
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Jun 15, 2017 12:09
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There are twists in Octobre Daye but I'm waiting for nearer the release of the next one to reread so I don't recall which particular books they're in. As with dresden book 3 is where I feel the series finds it's feet and the author settles into the world fully. Before that it's missing some key interactions.
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Jun 15, 2017 15:45
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biracial bear for uncut posted:From the moment the line "there's nothing stopping necromancers from using non-humans as zombies, they just tend to prefer humans" was there, after the murder-at-the-museum scene where Butcher went on for a bit about how Sue was the most-complete skeleton of a T-rex anywhere or whatever. To be fair UF is kind of weird about it - it takes a lot of cues from detective stories, the basic structure of crime into investigation into action (insert Chesterton on how detective stories are the knightly quests of today nicely tying it back to dragons and poo poo), but it misses a lot of the beats - it's hard for the reader to look for clues when there's magic involved, the whodunit very rarely surprises anyone... Makes one wonder why is UF in general so obsessed with this format.
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Jun 15, 2017 18:59
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anilEhilated posted:But did it prevent you to reading that scene with a maniacal grin on your face? When it works it works very well, and it's a good way to generate stories that aren't just campbellian hero's journey coming of age stories. Hell, Harry Potter is basically Scooby Doo Mysteries, Except Now With Real Magic
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Jun 15, 2017 19:04
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Hell, Harry Potter is basically Scooby Doo Mysteries, Except Now With Real Magic Harry Potter is more in the line of that great staple of British children's fiction - the "boarding school of adventure" where all Latin masters are "rotters" with names like "Awful Oswald" and "Pinchface" and the sixth form prefects are the Gestapo. I think it's very evident that J. K. Rowling read a lot of Enid Blyton girls' school stories growing up - Malory Towers, St. Clare's etc. There's a lot of Tom Brown's School Days, The Belles of St. Trinian's and Billy Bunter of Greyfriars School in Harry Potter, except with magic. Incidentally, one of Kim Newman's more recent novels (The Secrets of Drearcliff Grange School) is in the same line. I thought it was pretty good. I reckon that's why Harry Potter has so many lavish descriptions of food. That's one of the common themes that runs through all that stuff - lovingly described midnight snacks, feasts, picnics and banquets ("Eats and drinks and lashings and lashings of mummy's whipped cream and ginger beer!" etc.). See also: Roald Dahl and especially Brian Jacques. I believe it's because of the experience of wartime rationing, which has trickled down into Harry Potter. By the way, in 11 days (26 June) it will be the twentieth anniversary of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.
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Jun 15, 2017 22:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Hell, Harry Potter is basically Scooby Doo Mysteries, Except Now With Real Magic So like The 13 Ghosts of Scooby-Doo
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Jun 15, 2017 22:41
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Wheat Loaf posted:Tom Brown's School Days
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Jun 15, 2017 23:21
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anilEhilated posted:That's what it's called! I wanted to respond but really didn't feel like citing "that book Flashman is originally from" as an example. But yeah, there's a whole lot of boarding school fiction Harry Potter draws on. It is also one of the series that actually handle their twists and reveals pretty well in spite of the whole magic thing - from what I remember, people were figuring out foreshadowed events whole books in advance. Right, but I was talking more about the plots than the settings. Rowling combines a lot of influences but her plots are almost all mysteries, especially the first few books. Kid protagonist mysteries, Hardy Boys not The Long Goodbye, but still.
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Jun 15, 2017 23:24
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Ok the last book in the October Daye series really bothered me It was just so *sloppy* So her magic.cat husband (haifu?) Gets stabbed and is "dying". We've established.in prior books that 1) he's a cat.so he has extra.lives 2) she can raise the dead anyway if she gets to them soon enough after death 3) why can't they put him in a stasis circle till a better healer shows up Yet for some reason even with magical healing, he has to be elf-shot for a hundred years of sleep, instead of just, say, given a sedative Come.to think of it why doesn't she just Raise Dead the first.murder victim, she finds the body The series starts good but by the.end there it's getting ridic. Half of each book is characters recapping to each other, and half the remainder is Everyone Having Emotions Big Emotions at.evwryone else. Sigh . .. The last book especially though raises an interesting question. How important is it for fantasy author to stay consistent with the rules of their magical universe? Is that a.thing that matters? Or that should matter?
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Jun 17, 2017 01:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The last book especially though raises an interesting question. How important is it for fantasy author to stay consistent with the rules of their magical universe? Is that a.thing that matters? Or that should matter? It's important because it usually ties into goals and motivations and plot points. If the author starts forgetting or ignoring their own rules, then you start asking questions the author should have, and getting angry at books. I want consistency unless the author is doing something deliberately. Now, if the character forgets, or is an unreliable narrator or whatever, different story.
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Jun 17, 2017 02:10
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For me at least, it matters because it breaks the suspension of disbelief. If I'm thinking "wait, did the author gently caress that up?", I'm not thinking about the story.
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Jun 17, 2017 05:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:For me at least, it matters because it breaks the suspension of disbelief. If I'm thinking "wait, did the author gently caress that up?", I'm not thinking about the story. Some of the stuff you've mentioned gets addressed. Have you met Toby's Fetch yet? Also, to be fair to Octobre Daye - Dresden doesn't make potions, or wearwolf belts in later books. There's some figuring out how the world works that goes on in these series early.
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Jun 17, 2017 05:18
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I don't mind if things seem inconsistent as long as the actual system the author is using stays consistent behind the metaphorical curtain. For instance with the example given above, nothing in the magic system has changed, is Harry himself not bothering with them any more. You'll notice potions come back up when he's teaching Molly. Harry has just sort of lost patience with them and generally prefers a more brute force approach.
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Jun 19, 2017 11:13
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Luminaflare posted:I don't mind if things seem inconsistent as long as the actual system the author is using stays consistent behind the metaphorical curtain. They also come back up again when Butters is doing his Batman thing with Bob's help. Lots of potions and other one-shots and artifices.
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Jun 19, 2017 12:12
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I suppose Mab's therapy/teachings about not relying on gadgets and trusting only in his own capabilities have sunk in more than he realizes.
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Jun 19, 2017 12:45
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It's not really stated anywhere, but I always kind of felt like Harry might have cooled on potions after he drat near killed himself by overextending his magic while high on that 'super-coffee' potion in Fool Moon.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:00
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Angry Lobster posted:I suppose Mab's therapy/teachings about not relying on gadgets and trusting only in his own capabilities have sunk in more than he realizes. Harry's also getting older and settling into his power more, as Luccio notes in one book. I got the implication that it takes a while for a wizard's power to fully mature, with things like the Sight only developing later in a wizard's career, and Harry's reached the stage where he no longer needs tricks like potions or enchanted items so much.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:07
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Don't forget the date rape potion he made in Storm Front.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:25
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Butcher has said in interviews that he didn't want potion making to turn into a repeat gimmick in every book. I like the approach Jacka takes where Verus has an assortment of items that get periodically destroyed and/or used up.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:38
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Harry not using potions seems more of a lean into his brute force attitude as someone mentioned. The entire series has progressed from Harry being clever and prepared to him brute forcing solutions. The Merlin is mentioned as carrying around potions on his utility belt so high end wizards still use them I'd assume.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:38
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Anias posted:Some of the stuff you've mentioned gets addressed. Have you met Toby's Fetch yet? Yeah, most of my complaints are the later books actually. Honestly the Fetch was about where things started bothering me -- Our Hero should have clearly died a lot sooner after the fetch showed up. It just feels like the author is playing fast and loose with her own rules, especially in later books, usually just so she can stretch out extra emotional handwringing.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, most of my complaints are the later books actually. Honestly the Fetch was about where things started bothering me -- Our Hero should have clearly died a lot sooner after the fetch showed up. It just feels like the author is playing fast and loose with her own rules, especially in later books, usually just so she can stretch out extra emotional handwringing. She dies all the time, that's kinda her superpower.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:59
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Oroborus posted:Harry not using potions seems more of a lean into his brute force attitude as someone mentioned. The entire series has progressed from Harry being clever and prepared to him brute forcing solutions. The Merlin is mentioned as carrying around potions on his utility belt so high end wizards still use them I'd assume. And yet we have Ebenazar McCoy, who's described as one of the most badass mages in battle but never appears to wear any gadget except his staff, so I guess it depends on personal style.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:46
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Angry Lobster posted:And yet we have Ebenazar McCoy, who's described as one of the most badass mages in battle but never appears to wear any gadget except his staff, so I guess it depends on personal style. He had a pretty crazy ring when he ran into Kincaid before they all went to destroy that vampire nest. He didn't use it, but it seemed lethal enough if he was willing to use it on Kincaid. Granted, that's about the only thing he seems to have but Butcher has said that the older Council members are just like Harry in that they have stuff they don't tell anyone about just in case they get attacked. If no one knows about it, no one can prepare a defense against it.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:17
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I get the impression that with really good wizards you don't know what they have because at that point it's all basically hidden. Harry's pretty ostentatious with some of his stuff but like his leather duster is a bulletproof suit of armor that just looks like a regular duster and his shield bracelet and rings could be mistaken for normal stuff. I presume the Merlin has like a pair of underpants that could take out a city block if he wanted.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:20
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Still hoping we get to see the Wardens' anti-magic swords in action at some point. Much as they're hyped up, I don't think Butcher's ever written them being used as more than just swords.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:24
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Cythereal posted:Still hoping we get to see the Wardens' anti-magic swords in action at some point. Much as they're hyped up, I don't think Butcher's ever written them being used as more than just swords. I'm pretty sure we saw them (briefly) in action in Dead Beat when they were cutting through necromancer bullshit during the darkhallow.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:25
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Morgan cut through one of Harry's shields. Ramirez destroyed Madrigal's fancy Anti Magic vambraces/armwraps in White Knight
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Jun 19, 2017 22:26
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Remember that there's a Luccio-POV short coming out on 4 July (in Straight Outta Tombstone). We might see those in action there.
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Jun 20, 2017 02:29
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Aerdan posted:Remember that there's a Luccio-POV short coming out on 4 July (in Straight Outta Tombstone). We might see those in action there. Ooh, thanks for the heads up; didn't realize we were getting another Dresden short soon. Each new short is another step toward another compilation volume!
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Jun 20, 2017 03:06
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Yeah but where is peace talks!!!
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Jun 20, 2017 07:47
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Decius posted:And if you really like well written, well constructed and extremely interesting there is of course the Craft Sequence by Max Gladstone. It's not really UF, since it isn't set in Our World + Hidden Supernatural, but in a fantasy setting, where Necromants and Gods battle it out on the Dead Man's Land of High Financing (the currency is basically Souls). Nor has it a central protagonist, but every few books follow people in a certain city. However, it has many elements of it, and it is so worth it. Heartily endorsing this. Max Gladstone absolutely *nails* the atmosphere of a BigLaw firm in the first one of these. You could almost just ctrl+H "dollars for "souls" and have a better legal thriller than anything John Grisham ever wrote.
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Jun 20, 2017 08:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:When the Laundry Files is good, it's very good, but it kinda has the Zelazny Problem: Stross is a good writer but he's always pushing his own boundaries, so every new book is a new experiment in a slightly different sub-genre each time, and inevitably some of those experiments fail pretty badly. I just re-read Bound over the weekend, and I think I agree with you here. The description of Drakh's fight against the light mages was really reminiscent of Alex fighting Onyx while wielding the fate weaver---everything seemed to work out perfectly, with attacks apparently missing him while his counterattacks were always perfectly aimed. But I wonder if there isn't something more going on---Alex was so effective with the fate weaver because he had control over fate magic and divination at the same time---he was only able to setup attacks to miss him because he was able to see what would work. So how fate magic would work without help remains to be seen, I think. And there is still the seen of Richard and Alex in Richard's office--Alex gets the impression that he has a fair chance of beating Richard then and there. With how powerful Richard seems to be in combat, how could this be possible? (unless it turns out that Richard really does have fate magic but no divination, and that Alex is fully able to nullify Richard's advantages this way).
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Jun 20, 2017 16:43
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There's a huge self-pub UF sale going on right on with like fifty of the authors cooperating to drop prices on their first books to 0.99$. It's self-pub, I know, but so is Schaefer and you guys read him and a few of these look... readable, even if they're all hitting the formula hard.
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Jun 20, 2017 22:54
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