Working in Development: Leaving sounds like a great decision.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Working in Development: Leaving sounds like a great decision.

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My Rhythmic Crotch: Jan 13, 2011

Is bol basically Dutch Amazon? Or am I somehow landing on the completely wrong company?

# ? Jun 15, 2017 04:32

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# ? May 10, 2024 19:23

Carbon dioxide: Oct 9, 2012

My Rhythmic Crotch posted:

Is bol basically Dutch Amazon? Or am I somehow landing on the completely wrong company?

The Webshop part of amazon yes. I don't work for either of them but I understand that one of the big reasons why Amazon webshop barely has a presence in the Netherlands is because they simply cannot compete against Bol's popularity.

@Sagacity, while we're talking about stuff like this, can you please come over and fix our ops guys who seem to be afraid of new technologies? (they're really good at what they do and we couldn't do without them but there are some days...)

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Jun 15, 2017

# ? Jun 15, 2017 06:43

Keetron: Sep 26, 2008; Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

My Rhythmic Crotch posted:

Is bol basically Dutch Amazon? Or am I somehow landing on the completely wrong company?

Dutch Amazon but with out AWS and with a European Socialist work culture. There is a very strong no-assholes rule in place and your personality and ability to work in teams is as ik important as your technical skills. They would never hire me.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 07:22

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

Keetron posted:

Dutch Amazon but with out AWS and with a European Socialist work culture. There is a very strong no-assholes rule in place and your personality and ability to work in teams is as ik important as your technical skills. They would never hire me.

I'm not sure, Keetron :ohdear:

But the hiring policy is definitely VERY aware of culture fit. And quite frankly this is what makes it (to me) a nice place to work. There are many many (many) things that could be improved, but there is definitely very little drama in the sense of "person X doesn't respond to my input and just does what he/she/them/it wants waah".

To me this always feels like the most difficult part for a organization that grows beyond a certain size: How do you make sure you keep the culture intact? So far they're doing a pretty good job. It also does NOT mean that the only people that work here are incredibly social and our offices are full of rainbows and safe spaces and trigger warnings. It's just that you need to be able to work in *a team*. Depending on your personality you can work in a team full of very outgoing people. It could also mean you get to work with 5 nerds/nerdettes discussing the latest Game of Thrones/Walking Dead crossover fanfic.

Carbon dioxide posted:

@Sagacity, while we're talking about stuff like this, can you please come over and fix our ops guys who seem to be afraid of new technologies? (they're really good at what they do and we couldn't do without them but there are some days...)

Depends on the technology? It's not necessarily bad to be conservative, especially when you're automating your IT landscape. Not sure if that's the case here though :eng101:

# ? Jun 15, 2017 09:00

Keetron: Sep 26, 2008; Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

Another reason for me not to work for bol.com is that my fiancee works there and we have a "Don't work for the same company " policy at home. Our work persona's don't get along well.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 10:06

MrMoo: Sep 14, 2000

Carbon dioxide posted:

The Webshop part of amazon yes. I don't work for either of them but I understand that one of the big reasons why Amazon webshop barely has a presence in the Netherlands is because they simply cannot compete against Bol's popularity.

It's more likely that Holland is tiny and Amazon France and Germany are enough to cover the Benelux region well?

# ? Jun 15, 2017 16:46

Carbon dioxide: Oct 9, 2012

MrMoo posted:

It's more likely that Holland is tiny and Amazon France and Germany are enough to cover the Benelux region well?

No, that's not it. I mean yes, quite a few Dutch people have discovered amazon.de (although that requires navigating a German site so that's an extra step of annoyance), but there wasn't even an amazon.nl until recently. And all it seems to offer now is eBooks.

I mean, as you say, they already got the shipping infrastructure going here. Ordering from Amazon Germany isn't hard, once you pass the language barrier. All Amazon would need to do is put more stuff on the .nl website and advertise a bit and they could get much more popular here. But they aren't doing that prob because they did some kind of cost analysis and found out it's not worth spending money on when everyone's already using Bol.com or Coolblue or something.

By the way, it's apparently easy for small stores to partner with bol.com and sell their stuff through the bol.com site, appear in their searches and stuff. Useful if you need to get specialist books that bol.com itself doesn't have in store.

One time I ordered a book from one of those bol.com partners through bol.com... and when it arrived it was still in an amazon.de box. This seller just put amazon.de stuff on bol.com, put a 10% margin on top of it, and when you buy it, they just order it from amazon and have it delivered to your home. Smart way of making money, not sure if that's what Bol had in mind.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 21:51

Carbon dioxide: Oct 9, 2012

# ? Jun 16, 2017 19:18

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

Silicon Valley was right?!

# ? Jun 16, 2017 19:32

No Safe Word: Feb 26, 2005

Munkeymon posted:

Silicon Valley was right?!

It's pretty on the nose in general

# ? Jun 16, 2017 19:43

Doc Hawkins: Jun 15, 2010; Dashing? But I'm not even moving!

Before anyone asks: the effect held across languages.

source

# ? Jun 16, 2017 19:56

Doom Mathematic: Sep 2, 2008

But how many spaces? I need more granularity.

# ? Jun 16, 2017 20:08

Fellatio del Toro: Mar 21, 2009

Yeah if I had to work in an environment that used spaces I'd demand more money too

# ? Jun 16, 2017 20:15

Volmarias: Dec 31, 2002; EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Fellatio del Toro posted:

Yeah if I had to work in an environment that used spaces I'd demand more money too

Use a tool that will automatically convert tabs to whitespaces. This is a solved problem.

# ? Jun 16, 2017 20:18

Gildiss: Aug 24, 2010; Grimey Drawer

I always think people misunderstand this.

Spaces or the Space Bar?

Because I hit Tab and it makes 4 spaces because I'm not brain damaged.

# ? Jun 16, 2017 20:19

TheBlackVegetable: Oct 29, 2006

Gildiss posted:

I always think people misunderstand this.

Spaces or the Space Bar?

Because I hit Tab and it makes 4 spaces because I'm not brain damaged.

Ideally indentation would be the ides job entirely - auto-format on save everywhere.

Unfortunately some auto-format turns the code into a dog's breakfast (I'm looking at you, Visual FSharp...)

# ? Jun 16, 2017 20:34

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

I'm so loving sick of the tabs and spaces "debate"

# ? Jun 17, 2017 02:19

TheBlackVegetable: Oct 29, 2006

redleader posted:

I'm so loving sick of the tabs and spaces "debate"

Fine, how about we move on to the colour of the bikeshed.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 02:39

The Fool: Oct 16, 2003

TheBlackVegetable posted:

Fine, how about we move on to the colour of the bikeshed.

First we need to decide if we're going to use sinker nails or common.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 02:54

Volmarias: Dec 31, 2002; EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Jeez just use Material Design for the color scheme, done.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 02:57

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

We can't just not paint the bikeshed.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 03:07

Docjowles: Apr 9, 2009

Bongo Bill posted:

We can't just not paint the bikeshed.

Git hook: sed -E 's/^[[:blank:]]+//g'

There, now all bikesheds get a standard poop-brown coat of paint smeared on them as they leave the factory :colbert:

Also good luck with any sheds that have to house pythons

# ? Jun 17, 2017 03:49

Virigoth: Apr 28, 2009; Corona rules everything around me
C.R.E.A.M. get the virus
In the ICU y'all......

redleader posted:

I'm so loving sick of the tabs and spaces "debate"

Yeah! I wrote this response using vim!

# ? Jun 17, 2017 04:03

lifg: Dec 4, 2000; <this tag left blank>; Muldoon

My sister and I were exchanging stories of stupid arguments in our fields, and I told her about tabs v spaces. Later she said, "Just make a tab equal to one space. Bam. Problem solved."

That's my new favorite answer whenever this stupid thing comes up.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 06:22

Keetron: Sep 26, 2008; Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

lifg posted:

My sister and I were exchanging stories of stupid arguments in our fields, and I told her about tabs v spaces. Later she said, "Just make a tab equal to one space. Bam. Problem solved."

That's my new favorite answer whenever this stupid thing comes up.

Normally I don't care about the tabs vs spaces as I let my IDE sort it out and use the default setting. But this one got me angry enough to type a response. To your sister: go gently caress yourself.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 07:07

Volmarias: Dec 31, 2002; EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Keetron posted:

Normally I don't care about the tabs vs spaces as I let my IDE sort it out and use the default setting. But this one got me angry enough to type a response. To your sister: go gently caress yourself.

Yes, let your hatred consume you.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 13:26

necrobobsledder: Mar 21, 2005; Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll; Nap Ghost

I've never understood the debate because I think spaces have different purposes in a codebase than tabs. Tabs are for indentation oftentimes indicating nested scoping and statements, and spaces are best for visual alignment - those aren't the same thing to me. Now, I can see how it gets ugly when we're talking about linters and code reformatters / style guides, but if your tooling can't be flexible enough to handle those two different needs... well it's 2017 holy christ we're still talking about this :argh:

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:09

Doc Hawkins: Jun 15, 2010; Dashing? But I'm not even moving!

necrobobsledder posted:

I've never understood the debate because I think spaces have different purposes in a codebase than tabs. Tabs are for indentation oftentimes indicating nested scoping and statements, and spaces are best for visual alignment - those aren't the same thing to me.

In my view "indicating" and "visually aligning" are the same thing: techniques to communicate things to the reader.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 04:25

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

necrobobsledder posted:

I've never understood the debate because I think spaces have different purposes in a codebase than tabs. Tabs are for indentation oftentimes indicating nested scoping and statements, and spaces are best for visual alignment - those aren't the same thing to me. Now, I can see how it gets ugly when we're talking about linters and code reformatters / style guides, but if your tooling can't be flexible enough to handle those two different needs... well it's 2017 holy christ we're still talking about this

What visual alignment would you do in a code base that use tabs? And how would you account for person A where a tab is 4 spaces, and person B where a tab is 8 spaces for that visual alignment?

# ? Jun 18, 2017 06:40

Xerophyte: Mar 17, 2008; This space intentionally left blank

Hughlander posted:

What visual alignment would you do in a code base that use tabs? And how would you account for person A where a tab is 4 spaces, and person B where a tab is 8 spaces for that visual alignment?

There are people who prefer a style where they write things like

C++ code:

// Using " " for a space, "--->" for a tab:
namespace foo {
--->void bar() {
--->--->int                    parameter_number_0         = 2;
--->--->duration<milliseconds> yet_another_cool_parameter = fnord();
--->--->some_very_long_function_name(parameter_number_0,
--->--->                             yet_another_cool_parameter,
--->--->                             oh_dear_this_thing_takes_a_lot_parameters,
--->--->                             &this_one_is_an_output_for_some_reason);
--->}
}

The intent is to have indentation that's variable depending on the individual's tab width while keeping a fixed column alignment for parameters, declarations and whatever else they want to keep aligned. It's not something I'd do personally, but there's support for it in some formatting tools so whatever floats their boat, I suppose.

E: Okay, using "." for visible spaces was a bad idea in code tags, let's not do that.

Xerophyte fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Jun 18, 2017

# ? Jun 18, 2017 07:20

HFX: Nov 29, 2004

The biggest problem I've ever run into with tab vs spaces is that the autoformatters will seem to format your lines based upon the displayed line width. Thus, if I want 4 spaces for my tab, it will format differently from the guy using 2. At work, I use spaces because the average programmer I get can barely handle line endings much less tab stops.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 09:56

Doom Mathematic: Sep 2, 2008

C++ code:

// Using " " for a space, "--->" for a tab:
namespace foo {
--->void bar() {
--->--->int                    parameter_number_0         = 2;
--->--->duration<milliseconds> yet_another_cool_parameter = fnord();
--->--->some_very_long_function_name(
--->--->--->parameter_number_0,
--->--->--->yet_another_cool_parameter,
--->--->--->oh_dear_this_thing_takes_a_lot_parameters,
--->--->--->&this_one_is_an_output_for_some_reason
--->--->);
--->}
}

# ? Jun 18, 2017 11:24

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Hughlander posted:

What visual alignment would you do in a code base that use tabs? And how would you account for person A where a tab is 4 spaces, and person B where a tab is 8 spaces for that visual alignment?

The correct thing to do in these code bases is tab to the base then use spaces for visual alignment.

No one will do this though so just use spaces.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 12:18

ChickenWing: Jul 22, 2010

oh my god just make your IDE interpret a tab as four spaces. Utility of one key press with granularity of four spaces. Plus tab is fixed-width and some people want 2 space indents instead of 4.

spaces are objectively better hth

# ? Jun 19, 2017 12:53

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

ChickenWing posted:

spaces are objectively better hth

agreed, but tabs

# ? Jun 19, 2017 13:01

Clanpot Shake: Aug 10, 2006; shake shake!

I'm switching to spaces so I get paid more

# ? Jun 19, 2017 13:20

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Why are you people pressing tab/space so much anyway. Just have your editor autoindent to the correct place.

# ? Jun 19, 2017 13:31

taqueso: Mar 8, 2004

define tab = 1 space, now everyone can be happy

taqueso fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jun 19, 2017

# ? Jun 19, 2017 14:36

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Seriously, we have editors that autoindent and make tabs output spaces, this shouldn't be so hard.

# ? Jun 19, 2017 15:03

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# ? May 10, 2024 19:23

AskYourself: May 23, 2005; Donut is for Homer as Asking yourself is to ...

I think the time has come to debate proper line ending etiquette... Carriage return is not enough, we need a line feed too right ?

I think yes.

# ? Jun 19, 2017 16:14

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Working in Development: Leaving sounds like a great decision.

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