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idonotlikepeas posted:Another important thing to consider is that whatever his move is, Battler still loses in this room. We've kind of been shown that already. So if I got it right, what in the hell is Erika going to say next to counter it? The thing is that it can't just be figured out, it has to have been rendered unusable. And like I noted before, I question if 'effective' really refers to Battler's move or to (as I suspect) the motion for the logic error.
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Jun 19, 2017 00:28
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idonotlikepeas posted:Another important thing to consider is that whatever his move is, Battler still loses in this room. We've kind of been shown that already. So if I got it right, what in the hell is Erika going to say next to counter it? OK so the obvious answer is what you said before: idonotlikepeas posted:It's still not that hard to get him out with a variation on that, though. He'd just have to change places with someone outside - since I suspect that the story is going to want to keep the other two rooms sealed, it would be likely to be one of the people that appeared to be dead before. That person can put the chain back on and hide somewhere in the room without creating a contradiction while Battler strolls off somewhere else. (And since Erika isn't the detective, they can potentially keep hiding in different places in the room without getting caught by her.) But it can't be that for "reasons"/Erika's yet-unheard response, which keeps Battler trapped in the room and grants him a shotgun marriage. She could respond with some trick about the seals. Or maybe there's some way she can limit the "victims'" movements? I think it's got to be something along those lines. I don't know. I do think the key to his victory will be I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room. I think this still allows Sayo or even Yoshiya to move.
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Jun 19, 2017 01:13
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witchcore ricepunk posted:But it can't be that for "reasons"/Erika's yet-unheard response, which keeps Battler trapped in the room and grants him a shotgun marriage. She could respond with some trick about the seals. Or maybe there's some way she can limit the "victims'" movements? I think it's got to be something along those lines. I don't know. She can't seal them in, because she only got three rooms' worth of seals. That feels intentional, though. She must have set this situation up knowing she couldn't use that method to trap them. witchcore ricepunk posted:I do think the key to his victory will be I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room. I think this still allows Sayo or even Yoshiya to move. I agree that that's going to be significant, but they all still seem to be trapped, for the moment. Of course, it's possible those seals will actually end up getting broken at some point, or that there's a clever way around them.
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Jun 19, 2017 01:46
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Hold up, I'm a little confused about order of operations here. Erika just starts throwing out red truth saying she repaired the chain. You can't say red truth if it isn't true, saying it in red makes it true. What if Battler had said that the end of the chain was missing, so it couldn't be repaired. Doesn't Erika being able to just throw out red like that take away that move before Battler even has a chance to make it? She still could have sealed the door with just duct tape anyway so it's probably a moot point, but still.Confused Llama posted:3. Kanon kills Rosa. Similar to the Jessica vs. Kyrie scene, we get an extensive conversation elaborating on Rosa's feelings concerning events we already knew about, in this case, the circumstances of Maria's father leaving. She took pride in her self-sacrifice at letting him go, which she now regrets, but she still can't give up on the possibility of getting him back (which, by the way, also seems to provide a little more context for why she seems to keep sabotaging her potential relationships with new men, for which she then turns around and blames Maria --- as a surrogate for her father, maybe?). Perhaps, then, Kanon has a similar event in his past that has been haunting him, but unlike Rosa, he wants to be able to let go of it and move forward to seek a future with Jessica. Battler's sin/departure? Seems consistent with the idea that Kanon was the one with whom Battler broke a promise. Ooooh I like this. If the challenge is taken symbolically, as what a person must discard/kill in order for their love to be successful, it makes a lot of sense. Battler discards his ignorance, George discards his ties with his mother. Rosa's whole thing is about hanging onto her regrets over the one that got away. So for Kanon what he must discard, in order to be with Jessica, is his regrets about the one that got away. Battler would sure fit that bill, and it would make sense that Kanon couldn't have a successful relationship with Jessica if he's still pining after Battler. I like this a lot. Also, Maria might not just represent the occult, but could also represent a friend on the island who would never be seen again if Sayo George sever all ties with the Ushiromiya, and with her diplomatic immunity represents the rules of this game of murder and magic. And not killing George would sure go a long way towards helping their relationship work out.
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Jun 19, 2017 01:47
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Confused Llama posted:5. Chick Beatrice kills Natsuhi. This one is hardest for me to get a grasp on, largely because we still don't know for sure who Beatrice is. There's also a thick layer of metaphor here, and it seems to have something to do with the difference in significance of the spiderwebs vs. the spirit mirror. The spirit mirror is from Natsuhi's family and thus from her past as a scion of Shinto priests; the spiderwebs are from the legends of Rokkenjima specifically. One thing we know about Natsuhi is that she initially came into the Ushiromiya family unwillingly, but she eventually threw away her previous self to seek what fulfillment she could find in her new, unasked-for life (kind of the exact opposite of Rosa, in a way), which then eventually became a point of enormous pride for her, more so than for any blood family member. The spirit mirror vs. spiderwebs thing seems to suggest that what threatens Beato about Natsuhi is who Natsuhi once was, rather than who she is now... but that's as far as I can get. I don't think the text has confirmed this outright, but because I like the premise of this post I'll throw in my thought that Sayo is probably the child Natsuhi discarded. How does that color your analysis? 
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Jun 19, 2017 03:11
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witchcore ricepunk posted:I don't think the text has confirmed this outright, but because I like the premise of this post I'll throw in my thought that Sayo is probably the child Natsuhi discarded. How does that color your analysis? You know, it just occurred to me that, if true, this means she is George's aunt. (Half-aunt?) Yami wo kirisaku oh desire indeed
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Jun 19, 2017 03:56
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Don't you mean cousin?
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Jun 19, 2017 04:37
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ZiegeDame posted:You know, it just occurred to me that, if true, this means she is George's aunt. (Half-aunt?) And if my theory is true errrrrrbody's into their aunt heyoo Edit: though I guess that was confirmed with the Game Master Battler bit and with multiple aunts 
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 04:39
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 BGM: Engage of Marionette  "...You're lying...!!" "I judge it to be effective. He's presented logic that doesn't violate any of the red truths, and I've finished checking it." "...The move by the player on the witch side, along with that final red truth he repeated, is effective. Battler. For the first time, I have to say I think you're incredible..." "...See? In your game, a miracle will always occur if you believe." "B, Battler... san...!! I... I'm sorry...!! If only I had believed more strongly, you wouldn't have been cornered like this...!! Waaaaaaaahh!!"Beato flew onto Battler's chest, sobbing... Erika staggered backwards, shaking her head back and forth dizzily. And Bernkastel...? Her face was like an expressionless mask. Then, slowly... it became a smile... And for some reason, it seemed the sign of some horrible emotion...  "Well... DONE... To think... that you escaped the room... without removing the chain... simply SPLENDID..."With her small hands, Dlanor slowly started to applaud quietly. She was followed by Gertrude, and then Cornelia. And then by Beato and Lambdadelta too. Applause... filled the room...   "...I see. Yes, a move that cannot be seen by one whose thoughts are trapped within the closed room..." As Lambdadelta watched Erika, who was breathing hard, shocked and dizzy with a despair she couldn't accept, she had to take her hat off to the strength of Battler's heart and intelligence at this critical moment... and to the power of this miracle. ...Incredible, Ushiromiya Battler. It's my complete loss for thinking that your power and Beato's would cancel each other out and bring an eternal draw. And, Bern, who thought she could do as she pleased even though she had seen through to your true strength, has also suffered a complete loss. Bern is the witch who waits for miracles. You are the witch who summons miracles. You... are not Bern's piece. Just now, without a doubt... you have surpassed Bern... You really did... in this one moment... think up a trick by which to escape from this closed room...! As Erika had predicted, Battler had been hiding in the closet. Then, during the disturbance in the bathroom, he had snuck out of the door. Erika had guessed this much. That's why they retroactively set the chain lock and sealed it to prevent Battler from doing this very thing. The chain lock cannot be reset from the outside. So, it should have been impossible to escape from the closed room. However, Battler didn't let his thinking get trapped inside this closed room, and so, he broke through.  Just like Battler, the life or death status of the rest of the first twilight victims has not been specified by the red truth. In other words, just like Battler, the others... and specifically, Kyrie, can still move. And their closed rooms were not sealed, so they can go out as they please. Kyrie... had come to save him. Kyrie followed behind Erika, and had waited in the hallway while the latter had entered the guest room and sealed the door from the inside. Then, after Battler undid the chain lock and escaped, she entered the room in his place... Then, Kyrie reset the chain lock from the inside, and hid in the closet, just like Battler had done... Yes. Battler truly isn't inside this guest room right now. However, that doesn't mean that no one else is inside it. Kyrie took Battler's place in the closet, the one exception that Erika had left, and is there still... Kyrie... saved Battler...   Video: No EscapeBGM: Golden Slaughterer ...Huh...?  "Wh, what do you mean...?"  "...Wh, why not? There's no red saying that Kyrie can't save Battler! Wait a second, how are you using the red truth?!" "Effective. Dlanor's red truth is effective." "Requesting permission to unsheathe red key." "...Permission granted. Please do it, Dlanor." "H, how...? How... can you give that permission?!?!" "Effective. As part of an impartial judgment, I guarantee this red truth." "...Without telling us your reason?!" "We'll tell you that soon. Very soon." "...B, Battler hasn't proclaimed Kyrie dead with the red truth yet...! It is allowed for Kyrie to be playing dead! And the duct tape has already been used on three rooms, making it impossible for you to seal Kyrie's room...!" "So how can you use the red truth to say that Kyrie can't save Battler?! That red truth has no basis!!" "We'll tell you its basis soon. But more importantly, Lambda...? The logic with Kyrie has ceased to function. You should probably find another piece to switch places with Battler, don't you think...?" "...Nn, y... yes. There are still pieces that can save Battler."Reconstruct the logic. All we need is someone who can switch places with Battler. It doesn't have to be Kyrie.  "Then let's switch it to Natsuhi. Ushiromiya Natsuhi switched places with Battler...!" "Dlanor. Do it." "As you WISH."Dlanor's red longsword... smashed Natsuhi's piece into little bits... How...?! How... can Erika deny this logic... without the detective's authority?!  "Th, then Eva! Ushiromiya Eva!!" "Ushiromiya Eva cannot save Battler." "Then Rosa! Maria!!"  "O, objection! Erika-san doesn't have the detective's authority! How can she use any red except for the duct tape seals...?!" "Objection overruled. Not having the detective's authority does not imply that one cannot use any red at all. There's something she can use. Right?" "Yes, there is. There are several exceptions that even humans without the detective's authority can use." "...Insane... There's no way." "YES, there is NONE. However, there is a certain action permissible only to humans without the detective's authority, and it can become a truth of such overwhelming credibility that, witches can easily raise it to the level of red TRUTH." "A certain action... permissible only to humans who aren't the detective...?" "...I... I've got it. Yes, if I'm right... this red truth is effective..." "I... I don't understand! Was there some power that could only be used without the detective's authority...?!" "...There is. There is just one." "So, you've finally noticed. That's right. That's the only reason... I abandoned the detective's authority this time around. You told me I could make the detective proclamation whenever I wanted, right? Well, unfortunately, I am no longer capable of making that proclamation." "Knox... which rule was it...?"  "Y, you mean... wh, whaaat?!"...Finally, Beato realized everything. Yes, the detective's authority bestows several powers that are useful for reasoning, but it eliminates one single privilege. That is Knox's 7th. It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit...  "...In this game, it is impossible for humans without the detective's authority to examine corpses perfectly. So, there have been several tricks where the dead have all been faking and walking around where they please. You probably thought you could use that logic to create several impossible crimes after this. When I said that I wouldn't make the detective proclamation, somewhere on the inside, you must have said 'I've won'." "...You're pretty sly yourself. You gave me the duct tape seals, seemingly out of mercy, but that was because you planned to have all of the first twilight victims survive, band together, and carry out the crimes. So, you gave me only three rooms' worth, which wouldn't cover all six people." "No matter which rooms I sealed, at least one of your underlings could move freely. You must have been plotting to use that to corner me. But too bad. Your naivety really pisses me off. Stupid man!" "...I admit it. I admit that I fell for your monkey show... and that in my pride, I tried to show you some mercy. That's right. Even without the detective's authority, there is a way. A way to make sure that a corpse examination cannot fail."Is the human lying in front of you alive or dead? You can answer that question by examining the corpse. With just a quick glance, your chances of being right are 50-50 either way. Various bits of knowledge and experience can be used to obtain a more precise result. However, no matter how much you do that, while you can reach up to 99%, you can never reach 100% accuracy. ...That's what most people would think. However, there is one way. One way to conduct a perfect examination.  "...Erikaa... aa..." "Without the detective's authority, I can't tell whether the victims are dead or faking. So, I needed a way to be sure. And, if possible, it would be preferable if they were removed from the game board, so that they couldn't make a mess of things later on."  "Wh... what on... earth..." "...Of course, she couldn't just kill them however she liked. It had to be a perfect way of killing, good enough that their deaths could be determined with the red truth. Erika made sure of that." "...E, effective. No human could survive... after having their head sliced off...!" "C, could you have severed all of those heads without getting any blood on you?!" "For example, you could take a large trash bag from the kitchen and grab the knife through it. Then, if you covered the entire corpse with the trash bag as you did your work, you'd block nearly all of the blood spatter." "Of course, I didn't humiliate myself by walking around with them, leaving blood in the hallways and dirtying my clothes." "There will probably be trash bags left at the crime scene with my fingerprints on them, but since this game ends before the police come, that can't be used as evidence, so there was no problem with leaving them there." "...Are you insane? What kind of... mystery would... ever allow something like that...?" "I can't believe I'm hearing this from a witch on the fantasy side. Oh, and don't worry. I didn't kill you. I didn't have time to sever the head of the last one found, so I just sealed your whole room with the duct tape you gave me." "...Then again, that might've been because I knew this would happen and wanted to watch you struggle. *giggle*, *giggle* *giggle* *giggle* *giggle* *giggle*! Oh, that's right. Just like I can say that I killed them in red, I can say one more thing."At that point, Erika stopped for a second, and still, aaah, can she really be wearing an even uglier expression than everything before now...? With that... highest quality face, she spoke.   "...Maria-san was quite the little trouper. After all, even though her mother had already been killed in the same room, she kept on playing dead without even noticing... *giggle*, *giggle*giggle*... Hahahahaha, ahhahahahahahahahahaha... hehahyahhahahahaahahaaahaaaah!!"They're demons. Up until now, many witches and demons have appeared in this tale, but for the first time... here are true... demons...  This time, Beato understood the entire plot of this tale. This tale... was just the story of a prank. Surely, someone had thought of playing a slightly harsh trick on this inconsiderate guest, who loved to show off her intelligence and act the part of a great detective... and several people had agreed to go along with it. Then, the ones who would play the victims would go into their assigned rooms, set the chain and the lock from the inside, and play dead... to create a fake closed room murder... If you think about it that way, the rooms chosen for the corpses seem to make more sense. It was only natural for Natsuhi to 'die' in her own room. ...If you're going to play dead, it's only natural that you'd want to lie down on your own bed. Eva's vanity is strong, so she must have asked to 'die' in the VIP room. Kyrie was in Krauss's study. That was probably well air-conditioned and comfortable. Rosa and Maria were in the parlor. A soft sofa should have been a great place to play dead. Maria had done her best and had impressively acted the part of lying dead alongside the wall. Battler was in a guest room. The temperature here was also nice. The bed must also have been fairly pleasant. Yes... The victims for this first twilight had all died in comfortable rooms. In the past games, the corpses had often been found exposed in the courtyard or under the rose garden arbor. In the cold gardening shed or in the boiler room... This time, there were no victims in any such inhospitable environments. This... is probably the truth. This is the story of a prank, with no one dead since it started... And then... this... demon... had turned it into a real murder case...!  "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Corpses to corpses...! Hey, Battler-san? Let's continue the game!! Please present a different human to switch places with you. If you don't, your trick... will become a logic error..."There's now... no one who can come to the rescue. Erika's killed all of them!!  "D, dammit... dammit, dammit, dammiiiiiiiiit!!" "...Battler-san, please, calm yourself...! Now's the time to wipe our tears away and fight...! Even if you've lost five pieces who can save you, there's still the 11 people in the guesthouse!" "Y, you're right... Krauss, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, George, Jessica, Shannon, Kanon! Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo!! It doesn't matter who, as long as someone comes here!! Somebody, somebody, heeeeeeeeelp!!"   ""Let it be known that we are here and ready."" "Bwaattleeer-shwaaaaaann!! Pweease, look at thiiiiiiiiiisss!! Whhhaaaaat arrrre theeeesse?!"Erika, who was now so excited that her pronunciation was tumbling all over the place, pointed at two doors. It was the hallway on the second floor of the guesthouse... They were in front of the cousins' room and the next room over.  "...Know that it is the duct tape seal of the cousins' room." "<Oh, yeeeeeeeeaah>!! <Very goooooooooooood>!! <One more>!! What about this dooooooooooooooor?!?!" "Know that it is the duct tape seal of the next room over." "<Oh, very GOOD>!! Okay, you two! Why don't you show everyone watching at home on their TVs?!! Please have a look at the duct tape seals on both doors!! So, what do you think of them...?! Are they broken, or aren't they...? Please, let us have the red truth!!" "Know that an unbroken seal proves that there are still none who have entered or exited." "It needs no second telling, but know that entry or exit without breaking the seal is impossible!!" The victims of the first twilight have all been killed! And the guesthouse is still sealed!! No one can come to the rescue...!! "Uu... ku... gghh...!"Erika had guessed this moment might happen so long ago, and that was why she had made the strategic move of suddenly sealing these two rooms. This accounted for the doubts Cornelia had felt at the time. Wondering why the human side player wouldn't want as many free humans as possible was a natural, simple reaction to that move. However, if you sealed up all humans, there would be no room for magic to intervene. Why is magic magic? Because the people who saw it say that it was magic. Then, is it possible for magic to exist in a place with no people? Is there no problem with that because there's no anti-magic toxin...? Wrong! Magic in a place that isn't being witnessed is no different from a delusion, a daydream! Magic that matches a result must be carried out by human hands. If all humans are sealed off, then magic cannot be created. This was Erika's strategy for this game... and her beautiful... checkmate!!  "...Okay, Battler...? Your logic has been interrupted. Who could have come to save you? You are now in the middle of a logic error." "Uu... w, wait... I'm still... thinking...!" "...Battler, you have two options and one obligation. The first option is to build a new thread of logic to reconstruct your closed room trick. The second is to come clean and admit to your logic error. And your obligation is to choose one of these options." "It is merciful. There's no restriction on the amount of time you have to make that choice. *giggle*, that's right, your time is endless, eternal." "I... I'm sure there's still some way... some twisted logic that can get you out of this... Anyway, I'm sure there's still some way...!" "I'm thinking about it! What about you, Beato?! Let me know if you find anything... I'm sure the old Beato... could have managed something... She built up several closed rooms like this...!!"Beato felt awful... Why was she Beato, and yet not?! Surely, the old her would have thought up a trick under these restrictions. If only she could do that, she could guide Battler to victory... but she couldn't do it as her current self!  "*giggle*. Yeah, I'm sure you'll think of a good trick. Eventually, surely, probably, maybe. Pretty sure it's impossible though. *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!!" "...So then, Battler. Let's go back to the guest room. From now on, that will be your world."Once again, they returned to the slightly chilly guest room. It was the same room as before, of course, but it felt as though an unsettling darkness had crept in...  "...However, there are conditions. As I believe you know, these were all things you forced on yourself." "...First, this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset. You have to show that you can escape from this room with the chain lock still connected...!!" "...But... he couldn't possibly..." "He couldn't possibly do it? He made this closed room himself...!!" "We have set up... just one exit other than the door. That one's in the bathroom." "My merciful master has arranged for a last way out if you fail to think of any trick to escape. Please listen up!!"Bernkastel guided Battler to the bathroom. It was just a normal bathroom. The setup that had surprised Erika to buy time was no longer working.  "Are you saying... that I can use these to escape...?" "Yes, please feel free. It's a present." "...However, no matter what you use, you can't lock the room from the outside. And you can't fool the seals either, okay? These tools aren't here to help you pull some trick with the chain lock. They're here to let you escape from this room in a more direct way..." "...H... how am I supposed to use these...?" "...Not bad, Bern. I see... that your mind's as grotesque as ever..." "There is an exit that leads directly outside from this bathroom. Can you find it?" "...Y... you don't mean..." "D, did you figure it out, Beato...?! Please, tell me...!!" "That's... i... impossible..." "Please, where is it?! Tell me!! We can't let the game end like this!!" "There..." "Huh? Where...? Under... the bathtub...?" "Can't you see it? There's a round hole that leads straight out of this room." "...It's a bit small though..." "Y, you... you... aahh... nngggyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh..." "It's the drain right there at the bottom of the bathtub. You can get out of there without touching the chain lock. But your body is a bit too big to get through this exit. That's why I decided to lend you those tools there."You can escape... through the drain...? How...? She couldn't mean using those nippers for a hundred years to widen that hole, right...? Battler and Beato... had already realized. They had figured out this demonic way out that the demons were proposing...  "...crunch, crunch. Might as well sit back in the tub under a hot shower... as you start from your feet going up... chip then wash, chip then wash... Just keep doing that and, oh, what do you know, you've suddenly managed to escape from the closed room." "'Oh, what do you know' is right, my master...! Looks like both siblings are gonna end up the same way...! Heheh... heheheheheheheheheeheheheh!!" "But Bern...? At that rate, just the hand holding the nippers will be left." "That's why we have the wire... Beforehand, Battler will have to wrap the wire around his wrist, then stretch the other end out into the corridor through the crack in the door. You should be able to fit just a wrist through the crack left by the chain lock." "...If you're willing to do that, I'd be happy to pull that wire from the hallway and save you." "My master, if you do that, I want it!! Battler's wrist... eheheheheheheheheeheheheheheheh!!" "And what would you use that for...? But no, I've already decided to use it as a back scratcher. When the time comes, I'll scratch your back with it. What do you say?" "Y, yeees, my master... Master's going to scratch my back... with Battler's handhahahaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaahhh!!" "...Finding them annoying? Irritating? Obnoxious? Don't worry, it'll get quiet really soon. All noise to disturb your thoughts... will now disappear for all eternity, until you can escape from this room." "Th, that's a relief... I'll be glad of the quiet...!" ...Do you hate Bern and Erika? Then that's their parting gift to you. As long as you have hatred, you will be able to avoid giving up. Giving up has a completely different meaning here, okay...? Prepare yourself while you can... for the eternity of the hell you'll be in when you've given up... but still cannot escape. "Did you just call yourself a survivor...? Then, you also..." "...You know, every once in a while, that terror comes back to me. I wonder... whether I really have escaped from that hell. What if... I actually lost my mind a long time ago... and I'm still in there... just seeing a delusion of us all chatting happily like this...?" There was something in Lambdadelta's pleading expression that sent shivers down the spine. It was probably more terrifying than any threatening words she could have used with even the most vile expression on her face... It's time for Battler to realize. A logic error isn't so sympathetic that you can just stick out your tongue, ask for forgiveness, and say you'll be more careful next time... It is never worth risking one by leaving things up to chance, even if you feel that you can't back down at this point in the fight... It's time for him to pay up and understand the true risk and terror implied by the words 'betting one's life on a fight', which must sound so exciting for a man...  "B... Beato... Uuu... uuuwwaaaaaaaaaahhhh... I'll definitely think of something... just waaaaaaaaaatch..." "Well, regretfully, it's time for us to leave. We mustn't get in the way of his job any longer." "See you later, Battler-san. Or, like you'd say it, <see you again>, right? <Have a nice day>... *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!" "...Later, Battler. Good luck." "Battler-san, don't give up...! You will certainly think of a trick! I'll think as well, and I'll come to save you!!" "B, Beato...?!"Before he could finish saying Beato's name, they had all disappeared. They hadn't disappeared in a golden spray, or turned into butterflies and flown away... Just as though there had never been anyone in this room since the beginning, everyone but him had vanished in an instant. Nothing remained... not their voices, their presence, their warmth, nor even the faint perfume Beato had worn. The frigid air of the room was wrapped only in the lonely sound of the wind and rain... With that overpowering feeling of isolation... I finally began to realize... how horrible a punishment this would be...  BGM: Dead Angle How pointless... It's easy to undo the lock and chain from the inside. Dammit... For some reason, I've always been clumsy... and undoing chain locks always gives me trouble. Oh, it's off. Heheh, heh... how pointless. Look, I can already open the door whenever I want...  What the hell is this...? Why is there suddenly this iron collar around my neck... that's attached to a chain? Dammit, who would do something like that... ...Wh, when I reset the chain lock, it disappears. And when I take it off, it appears. The chain is pretty long, so I can make it pretty far out into the hallway. But it won't let go of the door... Then if I close the door, stand on the outside and stick my hand through the crack... maybe I can figure out how to set the chain...  BGM: Spiral  "...Battler-san, Battler-san!! Hang in there... hang in there...!!" Beato called out to Battler repeatedly, shaking his shoulders hard, but by now, Battler's eyes were blank. The words didn't reach him... Bernkastel and Erika had already left. The game was officially suspended until Battler could think of a new trick, but it was doubtful that it would be resumed even after a thousand years... or more...  "Th, there's no need to say 'so long'...! We'll... we'll think of a trick right away, and the game will resume! We won't take up your time...! So stay here a little longer...! Please...!!" "...We've heard those same words from many witches in the past. And I've heard of hardly any who've actually managed to resume their games. As far as I know, the only two are me... and Bern." "Why... why would a person who knows about that hell throw another person into it?! Just because you're bored? Is that all?!" "...Yeah, that's all. It's to escape from boredom. Because when we get bored, we remember. We remember that hell. And, you know, by throwing someone else down into that hell, we realize that, oh, we're the ones on the throwing side, and that means we aren't in that hell ourselves. If we don't keep doing that, then the fear of that hell will overwhelm us..." "...If you two managed to get out of it, then he certainly will! I will save him...!! I can say it with certainty...!!!" "With 'certainty'...? You swear with certainty before me, Lambdadelta, the Witch of Certainty...?" "Yes, with certainty...!!" "...Very well. I was the guardian for the former you anyway. Though the current you is different, I'll take care of you one last time. I'll give you a parting gift." "And what... is that...?" "Hope. As long as you hold on to your 'certainty', your wishes will definitely come true." "..." "...Detective... novels..." "Yep. The old you was an avid reader. You loved detective novels, loved closed room murders... and were a super expert on impossible crimes." "You searched for and found several closed room tricks, found the single most basic element to all of the tricks, and used that to form the core of your magical compendium." "...Didn't Battler tell you? He said that the old you would definitely have thought of a way out of this predicament. I agree with that. I guarantee it by the name of the Witch of Certainty, Lambdadelta. The old you would definitely have cleared up this closed room trick..." "...!" "...That's my parting gift to you. Goodbye. You've sworn to the Witch of Certainty that you will act with certainty. So I won't say farewell. 'I'll see you again soon'." "Y, yes. We'll see you again... soon...!" Then, in the smoking room of the witch... the two who had held the title of Endless Witch... were left behind. One had empty eyes. The other supported the first by his side. ...Ironically, it was the exact opposite... of how their relationship had been in the previous game... 
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Jun 19, 2017 13:38
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The profiles page has been updated.
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Jun 19, 2017 13:43
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Oh, of course. I'd even speculated about her being the culprit earlier. Of course, they haven't checked the window seals on those other rooms, so it may yet be possible to get someone out somehow to rescue Battler, or there might yet be a trick we haven't thought of for him to escape himself. (Possibly involving the tools? It would be a nice bit of irony to have him escape using them, although I don't see a way yet.)
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Jun 19, 2017 14:11
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 ...  ...  Jesus, loving poo poo, and other such utterances. I knew this would get bad, but I didn't know how bad... or how drat quick. I don't even want to say "I told you so" anymore, I'm too loving horrified on Battler's behalf here. How does Erika get even more loathsome the more time we spend with her? How does Berne become even more monstrous and sick? And how the loving gently caress is Lambda the most sympathetic person in this scene, after the things she did in the first game, and after the things she enabled in Higurashi? God, when she asked if she was actually out of her torment and wasn't just dreaming this conversation, I felt cold in the room... what on earth happened to her? And what is Beatrice going to do now? Hope is all very well and good, but if all of the victims are actually dead (gently caress you Erika), and the remaining people are sealed up... how is that going to happen?
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Jun 19, 2017 14:22
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This is one of those videos you really have to watch. I dont have the words to describe just how much ham Erika's VA makes out of her victory speech. Also afterwards it might be a good time to stop for a second, quickly look back at episode 1, and contemplate the long, weird road which has taken us to this crazy plot development.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:36
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Whoa. Is this Erika's cheese slicing moment?
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Jun 19, 2017 15:07
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Whoa. Is this Erika's cheese slicing moment? Necks, actually. resurgam40 posted:
Actually, buddy, let me ask you a question. Discounting arguments about her complicity in higurashi (cause its arguable how canon we should take it, and she doesnt appear to know or care about the details regardless.) what...exactly has lambda done? Be specific. oath2order fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 15:15
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Whoa, wait. How could Gertrude and Cornelia give red that the seals in the guesthouse were unbroken? Why wasn't it a valid move for Battler to say "Okay, you win this point, the seals on the guesthouse rooms are broken and everyone is gone"? If the murders this time were all supposed to be a prank on Erika, then the only reason that everyone had locked themselves up in the guesthouse in the first place was for verisimilitude. They could easily have decided to leave the rooms once Erika had gone. Hell, Erika hadn't even physically gone back to the guesthouse to check.witchcore ricepunk posted:I don't think the text has confirmed this outright, but because I like the premise of this post I'll throw in my thought that Sayo is probably the child Natsuhi discarded. How does that color your analysis? I'm not ignoring your question, I'm just still thinking about it.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:23
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idonotlikepeas posted:Oh, of course. resurgam40 posted:
You know, looking back on these two posts, I am amused by how they fit with our avatars. oath2order posted:Actually, buddy, let me ask you a question. Discounting arguments about her complicity in higurashi (cause its arguable how canon we should take it, and she doesnt appear to know or care about the details regardless.) what...exactly has lambda done? Be specific. Resurgam may be able to come up with something else, but: she tried to keep Bernkastel trapped in Beatrice's game forever. This arguably felt more like a crime before we got to know Bern better. She established that Ange couldn't say her name, which ultimately resulted in her (imaginary) death via red-hot pliers. She also went into detail about various ways of cooking Ange after the fact, and in general talks like an rear end in a top hat. In terms of specific actions, though, she's actually helped Battler out a couple of times, and has demonstrated that her apparent stupidity is mostly an act. She talks a lot bigger than she actually behaves, in terms of evil cackling witch stuff.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:35
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idonotlikepeas posted:She established that Ange couldn't say her name, which ultimately resulted in her (imaginary) death via red-hot pliers. Well, it was a fair rule. She even offered to remove it if Ange just had agreed to keep the game going. But nooope, Ange just had to be selfish and emotionally manipulate Battler into killing Beato. Lambda did nothing wrong
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Jun 19, 2017 15:45
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Or maybe there's some way she can limit the "victims'" movements? I think it's got to be something along those lines. I have to say that I did not AT ALL consider this possibility when I wrote that post. But also, it definitely shows the difference between Battler and Erika. Who knew that the games could have been that much more straightforward if he hadn't been such a softie?
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Jun 19, 2017 15:45
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Metagaming murderous detectives are the worst. "There are only three people including me in this scenario, so now if I, the detective and so not the murderer, shoot X then you, Y, are culprit! Simply through the existence of Knox's rules this level of 'reasoning' is possible for me..." Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 15:49
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idonotlikepeas posted:You know, looking back on these two posts, I am amused by how they fit with our avatars. We do our jobs well.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:54
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Shinji117 posted:Metagaming murderous detectives are the worst. She also didn't proclaim it on purpose so that she could allow herself to be the culprit.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:57
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Seriously, Erika really out sociopath BBClock - because jesus christ, she more or less admitted to potentially murdering everyone just to win and is just so drat proud. A person who does mysteries to just stoke their ego is the worst detective.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:09
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Man, these windows just keep getting unceremoniously sealed with red before Battler even has a chance to use them to retreat. I don't think they explicitly covered the guest house windows though, so I'm just gonna amuse myself with picturing Rudolf action-rolling out the second story window to rescue his son from the goddamn psychopath that washed up on the island.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:31
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Robindaybird posted:Seriously, Erika really out sociopath BBClock - because jesus christ, she more or less admitted to potentially murdering everyone just to win and is just so drat proud. A person who does mysteries to just stoke their ego is the worst detective. Nothing potential about it.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:33
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Stepping away from the horror story for a bit, I've been thinking about how at the start of this episode it was called a confession. That bothered me because it was still 2 games early to lay it all out there. But looking back it's all starting to make sense; this is only a confession of the How. So far the author has openly said that magic is bullshit and explained how it works, and the major focus of the story here is on the precise mechanics of how a closed-room trick is performed, even going so far as to explicitly tell us what Battler had planned. So with that in mind I'm starting to wonder if the next episode won't focus in on the Who, and the final one the Why. And if the structure of Higurashi is anything to go by, I could expect that most if not all the mysteries to be solved by the end of the game 7, with game 8 being more about how to get the best possible outcome while knowing all the facts. The repeated use of 'everyone was just playing a big prank' in the past two games sure seems to be setting up for a happy ending. Of course, I can't really see Bern letting that happen.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:01
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ZiegeDame posted:The repeated use of 'everyone was just playing a big prank' in the past two games sure seems to be setting up for a happy ending. So I guess both of us were wrong about Rudolf and Krauss lying about the bodies this round. I for sure didn't pick up on it just being a prank to gently caress with Erika. Their motivation was really just that—to pull one over on her. And yeah, I think I can speak for both of us when I say that I am verrrrry loving excited for Umineko to lay out the whodunit section of the story. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 17:28
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Incidentally - if I can keep up my newfound momentum long enough, we should be into EP7 within the next two weeks. Endgame is approaching fast.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:30
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ZiegeDame posted:The repeated use of 'everyone was just playing a big prank' in the past two games sure seems to be setting up for a happy ending. Of course, I can't really see Bern letting that happen. I like to think that theme is because Battler's the one running the game, even after everything he doesn't want his family to be murderers  Also, "Why... why would a person who knows about that hell throw another person into it?! Just because you're bored? Is that all?!" "...Yeah, that's all. It's to escape from boredom. Because when we get bored, we remember. We remember that hell. And, you know, by throwing someone else down into that hell, we realize that, oh, we're the ones on the throwing side, and that means we aren't in that hell ourselves. If we don't keep doing that, then the fear of that hell will overwhelm us..." Hey there frank discussion on the cycle of abuse, been a while since we've seen you.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:37
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As completely hosed up everything Erika has done, I does make sense from the fact that this is supposedly her last game to get out of purgatory and if she fails Bern is throwing her into hell. This just has me thinking of what happens after each game since only Eva has escaped this bullshit before and only by herself. Did she also have her own purgatory with Beatrice forced to solve a silly riddle after repeating her own games? Better yet, is every character going through their own game with their own Beatrice and other wacky poo poo to deal with? Probably not. Anyway, Erika didn't show up at all in the first 4 games because she was probably dead from drowning or didn't exist in the first place. I wonder if any more people will wash up onto the island and gently caress everything up, since from Bernkastel's threats this could be the last we see of Erika if Battler digs out of his own grave... again.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:41
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I'm puzzled by the red saying the chain can't be set from the outside, when just a few posts ago the game told us about devices that can do exactly that. The wire and pliers needed to make one are even in the room. Alternatively, if Battler just wants to be out and doesn't care about being subtle, the typhoon could put a tree branch through the window or even rip the entire roof off. But no, Battler has to be Battler: stupid and determined. Charges head first at a wall then complains it's unfair that the wall didn't break. I will say Erika has a novel way of finding the murderer: making sure it's you. Battler should claim that, as the one committing the murders, she's really playing the witch side now, and he's the detective. A post a little bit ago said something about liking the characters. Uh, no. Would you want to spend a weekend with the Ushiromiyas? Or go to a witches' tea party? The author does an excellent job of making unpleasant characters understandable, but they're still unpleasant. A thing that occurred to me after the discussions of the last week: who's telling this story? It comes up in literature sometimes: when you read something written in the third person, are you directly seeing events, or is their a narrator standing between you and the story, telling you about it? I'm in the latter camp, but it seems different interpretations are built into different readers and it's hard to change that feeling. Usually it doesn't matter, but here it does, because it makes you ask "If I'm lied to about a scene, who's doing the lying?" For me, it's the author. When Krauss punches goat-kun, I think the author is lying, not that Krauss is having some type of delusion or trying to fool me. On the other hand, we had a scene where Natsuhi is drinking tea and sees Beatrice with her, but the narrator switches to another viewpoint and shows she's alone. For that, I believe Natsuhi is delusional. It may not sound like a big deal, but a couple pages back somebody said that everything from the point of view of an accomplice is a lie. That took me back because, to me, the characters never present any information to me: the narrator/author does. So there's nothing inherently untrustworthy about the point of view character, but there is about the narrator. On the flip side, even if we have red text saying somebody isn't a killer, I don't trust information presented from their point of view. (Unless they're the detective. The author made that rule for himself and I'm trusting him to stick with it). I do think the story is best if the lies are minimal and detectable, so I try to trust as much non-supernatural stuff as possible. Likewise, I think the story is best if the number of accomplices is also kept to a minimum, so I can't swallow theories where the murders require a dozen of them. But I understand all that is my personal bias, my feelings about what would make the most entertaining and least cheating story. If anybody (everybody) disagrees, I don't see how I could possibly convince them. Even the position "Red truths can actually be lies," for instance. I think that would ruin the story and nobody would bother with an LP of it, but I can't prove it.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:48
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oath2order posted:Actually, buddy, let me ask you a question. Discounting arguments about her complicity in higurashi (cause its arguable how canon we should take it, and she doesnt appear to know or care about the details regardless.) what...exactly has lambda done? Be specific. Well... ...huh. Keeping Berne in Beatrice's game like peas pointed out is not admittedly very nice, but beyond that... she has been something of an impartial actor, hasn't she? Her very first appearance, she gave some advice to Battler too, which she's... well, done a lot, actually, whenever she's been in the story. Yes, she's been a bit mean about it at times, but the only times that she's been actively hostile have been when she was strongarming Beatrice and crushing Ange's hope for getting her brother back in her timeline. But was she actually establishing anything, in that scene, or was she just establishing the truth of the time paradox? In fact... now that I think on it, has Lambdadelta ever straight up lied about anything? Berne, in one way or another, lies all the time, but a lot of LD's nastier moments come when she's obliterating a previous lie, or establishing facts- she "corrected" Ange's misconception of what would happen if Battler left the island, and her annoyance at Beatrice's screwing around...could actually be taken a couple of ways, couldn't it? It's never really defined what she means by Beatrice's pussyfooting, the fact that she can "beat" Berne... so is she mad because she keeps failing to crush battler... or mad that Beato won't admit that crushing Battler isn't what she wants? that Beato wavers in her "certainty?" So maybe, unpleasant as she is, she really is the best person to be impartial. Maybe I really did sell the Shortcackle... short.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:52
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BurningStone posted:I'm puzzled by the red saying the chain can't be set from the outside, when just a few posts ago the game told us about devices that can do exactly that. In the real world maybe, yeah. This is a gameboard. By Beatrice's definition of closed rooms, it's impossible to set a chain lock from outside the room.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:57
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When is Battler going to use his GOLDEN TRUTH? It has to come in play at some point, a truth stronger than red?
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Jun 19, 2017 18:02
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Another one of the game's many smoke and mirrors - nobody's exactly what their first impression is, cool collected Kyrie is a frothing cauldron of jealousy and spite, bratty spoiled Maria is an intelligent martyr. Even the ones that are close to what they look like have a different nuance - nice guy George is still nice, but he struggled with Nice Guy-ism and can be loving ruthless if the situation requires.
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Jun 19, 2017 18:03
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Hmm. That was not a counter I expected, though it certainly works, and I think it's the only way of invalidating the switcheroo (barring similar things that don't kill them). Also fits Battler's game that his solution would be "everyone's alive, comfortable, and happy". I wonder what reflects on Lambda if we attempt to analyze her game in the same fashion, given we know the first 'deaths' were fake, yet are later guaranteed by the red? I should also note that this is only a method that can be used because it's a game board, and the police aren't coming afterwards. So now let's move on and find the way for Battler to escape the room by himself, now that we've come full circle and know the entire situation behind it. We know the full range of options available, as well as what cannot work. Though I still wonder if a possible solution is "use the nippers to break the chain again, escape, and join the broken halves again from the outside", with the use of duct tape, for example. BurningStone posted:A thing that occurred to me after the discussions of the last week: who's telling this story? It comes up in literature sometimes: when you read something written in the third person, are you directly seeing events, or is their a narrator standing between you and the story, telling you about it? I'm in the latter camp, but it seems different interpretations are built into different readers and it's hard to change that feeling. Usually it doesn't matter, but here it does, because it makes you ask "If I'm lied to about a scene, who's doing the lying?" For me, it's the author. When Krauss punches goat-kun, I think the author is lying, not that Krauss is having some type of delusion or trying to fool me. On the other hand, we had a scene where Natsuhi is drinking tea and sees Beatrice with her, but the narrator switches to another viewpoint and shows she's alone. For that, I believe Natsuhi is delusional. I definitely think that a minimal level of POV deception and accomplices are required to make it an interesting story. Furthermore, my suggestion is that even if the POV is deceptive, that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't have relevant information. Rather, I suppose that a way of putting it is "if a POV is deceptive, the author has a reason behind it". My stance on red truth is that it can't directly lie, but it can mislead in a way that suggests a lie. Having red truth directly tell a lie would make the majority of the story invalid, and I trust that's not going to happen. Tired Moritz posted:When is Battler going to use his GOLDEN TRUTH? It has to come in play at some point, a truth stronger than red? It's been noted that it's sometimes stronger than red, sometimes weaker. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 18:23
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Cyouni posted:So now let's move on and find the way for Battler to escape the room by himself, now that we've come full circle and know the entire situation behind it. We know the full range of options available, as well as what cannot work. Though I still wonder if a possible solution is "use the nippers to break the chain again, escape, and join the broken halves again from the outside", with the use of duct tape, for example. I get the feeling that Erika is the exact sort of rear end in a top hat that steals every drat scrap of duct tape in the mansion. So unless you imply that the otherwise incompetent Battler is capable of swiping duct tape out from under the nose of a person whose entire being has been minmaxed to be a master of observation, and do it before anybody else notices that the chain's been broken, I don't think that'll work.
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Jun 19, 2017 18:39
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Sordas Volantyr posted:I get the feeling that Erika is the exact sort of rear end in a top hat that steals every drat scrap of duct tape in the mansion. So unless you imply that the otherwise incompetent Battler is capable of swiping duct tape out from under the nose of a person whose entire being has been minmaxed to be a master of observation, and do it before anybody else notices that the chain's been broken, I don't think that'll work. She got that duct tape off Kumasawa. Battler's totally within his rights as Game Master to reserve a roll of duct tape for himself that actually works.
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Jun 19, 2017 18:44
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Erika's duct tape has her signature all over it, though, so just any duct tape wouldn't work.
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Jun 19, 2017 18:59
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Cyouni posted:
I'd imagine that counts as setting the chain from outside, and therefore banned by red.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:04
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