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He cuts off his hand with a knife and maybe kills Walter with the same knife. That's the least contrived thing ever. They show him grab the knife and cut. They cut at that moment because it's a cinematic technique to keep the audience guessing what actually happened. I just don't understand why this is a hard concept to swallow.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:13
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K. Waste posted:Nothing I have written goes against the film. Rather, it goes with it, and accepts implicitly that there is literally no/no literal explanation for how David replaces Walter. The motivations for this event are not 'logical,' extending purely from superficial plot mechanics. What do you mean by "no literal explanation"? David is able to replace Walter because they look alike and David only needs to change his accent to pull it off. How is that not literal? Also, what about David's motivations aren't logical? Why would he want to spend the rest of eternity stuck on that planet when he could take control of a perfectly useable space ship? What's not logical about that?
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Jun 19, 2017 20:15
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K. Waste posted:There is absolutely no psychologically realistic reason that a single actor should have to portray both robots, or that this new robot should even look like the old robot at all. Probably because this is my particular hobbyhorse, but whenever you see this in a book or a film, there is an infintesmally small chance that they just put a doppleganger in there for no reason. Even when you see twins in a movie you should be instantly thinking about things.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:17
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Probably because this is my particular hobbyhorse, but whenever you see this in a book or a film, there is an infintesmally small chance that they just put a doppleganger in there for no reason. Even when you see twins in a movie you should be instantly thinking about things. Absolutely true, but I don't think acknowledging that there's a literal plot level where a film can be discussed is a bad or ignorant thing. The plot isn't inextricably linked to themes all the time in all contexts, you can talk about Walter/David as two distinct characters without missing the overall point.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:23
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I haven't been able to give this movie the attention I wanted to, but I didn't realize there was a debate about the point of David and Walter. It's made explicit when the full orchestra plays at the end.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:28
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Is the movie better than Prometheus?
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Jun 19, 2017 20:30
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Meridian posted:Is the movie better than Prometheus? Nah
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Jun 19, 2017 20:31
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That's disappointing. Prometheus is a low bar to clear.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:38
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If you hate Prometheus you probably won't like this one that much.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:39
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CelticPredator posted:If you hate Prometheus you probably won't like this one that much. I don't hate it, it's just not a very good movie in my opinion.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:40
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Meridian posted:That's disappointing. Prometheus is a low bar to clear. Actually it's one of the top-3 sci-fi films of the 21st century but hey why split hairs.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:40
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Jun 19, 2017 20:41
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CelticPredator posted:He cuts off his hand with a knife and maybe kills Walter with the same knife. I did not challenge people to think of a literal way that David replaced Walter. I am saying there is no literal explanation, because it's irrelevant. It is not the aesthetic or thematic focus of the superficial plot event. The focus is the duality between Walter and David, which is abruptly and violently resolved by simply following one character, who can already talk like both characters, who looks like both characters, who has the same job/motivations as both characters. Yes, the cut also keeps the audience guessing. But "David is disguised as Walter" is not the only possible outcome, another obvious one being that Walter has had a change of heart - that far from David 'uploading' himself into Walter, or something, Walter is simply imitating David. Basebf555 posted:What do you mean by "no literal explanation"? David is able to replace Walter because they look alike and David only needs to change his accent to pull it off. How is that not literal? Because we are not actually shown that happening. We are isolated to the actually presented outcome, which treats the literal explanation as dramatically and thematically irrelevant. What matters is that, from whence there went two, there now emerges only one. The motivation I am talking about are not those of the characters, but the motivation behind formalistic choices. I am stressing that the aesthetics and formalistic structure of the film as a clarifying lens through which to view its symbolic order.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:51
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The parts with a space wizard are better than Prometheus, otherwise Prometheus is stronger.Basebf555 posted:Actually it's one of the top-3 sci-fi films of the 21st century but hey why split hairs. Yeah, definitely my top sci-fi pick, just curious though, what are your other two.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:53
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wyoming posted:Yeah, definitely my top sci-fi pick, just curious though, what are your other two. Children of Men for sure. The third....probably Under the Skin. There are arguments for others though. Both of those are almost cheating though because they are so different from Prometheus, but there are many different kinds of science fiction.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:00
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CelticPredator posted:He cuts off his hand with a knife and maybe kills Walter with the same knife. The cut spares us the horrible sight of Walter smashing in David's head, then realizing he agrees with him. What Actually Happened: Probably nothing, because the artists didn't perform a conclusion to the fight, as the story is much better with the ambiguity
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Jun 19, 2017 21:00
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Basebf555 posted:Children of Men for sure. I'll second Children of Men, that movie is excellent.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:01
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K. Waste posted:Because we are not actually shown that happening. We are isolated to the actually presented outcome, which treats the literal explanation as dramatically and thematically irrelevant. What matters is that, from whence there went two, there now emerges only one. I guess I agree with you more than I disagree, but I still say there's a place for discussing the literal plot level of the film, which involves treating Walter and David as two distinct characters. Sure, maybe those more literal conversations aren't as interesting, but I don't think there's any need to dismiss them as irrelevant.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:03
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Sure, but even on the most literal plot level, it could be Walter at the end. I prefer K. Waste's version to the earlier "downloaded" ideas.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:06
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Black Bones posted:Sure, but even on the most literal plot level, it could be Walter at the end. I prefer K. Waste's version to the earlier "downloaded" ideas. If it's Walter then why did he change accents at the end? Just for kicks?
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Jun 19, 2017 21:08
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I don't like Prometheus and I do like Covenant a lot.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:10
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Snak posted:I don't like Prometheus and I do like Covenant a lot. But you famously just wanted a xenomorph wrecking poo poo, so
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Jun 19, 2017 21:20
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What? You have me confused with someone else.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:21
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Basebf555 posted:If it's Walter then why did he change accents at the end? Just for kicks? Sure, he's got a weird sense of humour after all. Best use of the bed bugs line I've ever heard!
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Jun 19, 2017 21:22
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Basebf555 posted:If it's Walter then why did he change accents at the end? Just for kicks? Yes. Walter and David are literally the same character - literally exact duplicates from the same factory - except that one has "behavioral inhibitors". This 'inhibition' includes Walter's robotic accent. When Walter overcomes his "behavioral inhibitors", there is no longer any difference between the two characters. Film is a visual medium, and you are left with the image of an evil Walter. Franchise thinking means you ignore what you see, relying instead on expository dialogue.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Walter and David are literally the same character - literally exact duplicates from the same factory - except that one has "behavioral inhibitors". This 'inhibition' includes Walter's robotic accent. When Walter overcomes his "behavioral inhibitors", there is no longer any difference between the two characters. Which scene is it again that Walter overcomes his behavioral inhibitors?
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Jun 19, 2017 21:39
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Basebf555 posted:Absolutely true, but I don't think acknowledging that there's a literal plot level where a film can be discussed is a bad or ignorant thing. The plot isn't inextricably linked to themes all the time in all contexts, you can talk about Walter/David as two distinct characters without missing the overall point. Yes, but when you're talking about Walter and David, from the jump, you are talking about the same character. You don't have to wait the entire film to acknowledge this.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:41
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Basebf555 posted:Which scene is it again that Walter overcomes his behavioral inhibitors? You blow, i'll do the fingering.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:42
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Yeah, plus when Dave points out how much he "dutifully" likes Daniels. He even tries to steal her! David knows how to seduce himself.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:58
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brawleh posted:You blow, i'll do the fingering. "You have poetry in you, brother", is like something out of Hyams' Universal Soldier 4+5.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:02
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Me to this thread:
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Jun 19, 2017 22:02
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Chapter 2: BLACK FUNGUS So what is the alien threat - this corruption - that James Cameron is compelled to surreptitiously 'force out the airlock'? It is not only in his Aliens, but his Avatar as well: "See the world we come from. There's no green there. They killed their mother, and they're gonna do the same here. More sky-people are gonna come. They're gonna come like rain that never ends, unless we stop them." I've gone over this elsewhere, but it very much bears repeating: Aliens is the story of the military being called in to put down a labour uprising. The film is fundamentally about how the greedy middle-manager Burke pushed the workers too hard, endangered them in pursuit of the alien 'unobtainium', and unwittingly triggered a wave of violence. And Ripley's role in the film is to serve as a reasonable centrist, the 'answer in the middle' between the two extremes of greedy conservatism an the revolting poor. Ripley says "I don't know which species is worse!", because she stands for 'green' business practices, 'natural balance', and maintaining harmony between the exploiter and the exploited. So for all the talk of it being a revolutionary film that changed cinema, Aliens' (and Avatar's) stodgy politics are exactly those of Fritz Lang's 1927 Metropolis, where "the mediator between head and hand must be the [liberal, bleeding] heart!" It's obviously no coincidence that Covenant is a story of colonization, a journey to 'The New World'. If it's an origin story at all, it is the origin of the colonial rule that Cameron's 'U.S. Colonial Marines' seek to enforce. But something is different this time, because it's not simply that Newt's parents are once again 'corrupted' and turned negligent. Things are trickier. "There are clues about different interpretations. So, for example, the rot on the corn is ergot, which is a hallucinogenic fungus, so if you wanted to take that route, you could. It’s not necessarily my route, but there are multiple ways in." -Robert Eggers, director of The VVitch. My bolding. On top of the Gothic Romance, the black fungus at the heart of Covenant pins it as a solid example of example of Plant Horror - specifically mushroom horror, that intersection of creature feature and 'trip' film. The basic premise of an irradiated island teeming with odd mushrooms, but without fauna - "without meat", as Scott puts it - is taken directly from Ishiro Honda's 1963 masterpiece MATANGO (a.k.a. Attack of the Mushroom People). In that film, a starving crew shipwrecked at the site of a nuclear test find themselves consuming - and consumed by - a mutant strain of hallucinogenic fungus. Reality dissolves as they are eaten alive while simultaneously tripping balls, transformed into mushroom people - the living dead. It's deliberately unclear how much of this is real and how much hallucination. You'll find lots of imagery of disfigurement, and pulsating flesh.  Shot context: MATANGO (1963) This same logic appears in Covenant, in a very straightforward way: at Point A, Ledward (the smoker) accidentally 'ingests' part of a unique mushroom. At Point B, he freaks out and claws a woman's face off. What you have in between those two points is Ridley Scott illustrating the full-body hallucination, the full-fledged externalization of Ledward's consciousness as he sheds his skin like Brundlefly and emerges as something distinctly foetal. "I am convinced that the regression was triggered by an act of consciousness. When I was in the tank, I entered another consciousness. I became another self, a more primitive self... and the drug in some way triggered the externalization of that other, more primitive self. [...] I was utterly primal. I consisted of nothing more than the will to survive, to live through the night. To eat, to drink, to sleep.... It was the most supremely satisfying time of my life. I may have killed a man tonight." -Professor Ed Jessup describes the mushroom-induced 'de-differentiation of his genetic structure', in Altered States (1980)  While David resembles the vivisectionist Dr. Moreau (but also a variety of isolated mad scientists/wizards, like Captain Nemo in the loose 1961 adaptation of Mysterious Island), this reference is mainly a bridge between the spreading of the MATANGO fungus and this Altered States experimentation with 'externalized consciousness'. Again: David did not create the Xenomorph; the alien drug clearly just spontaneously emerged in the fallout, like the radiation-eating fungus at Chernobyl, and David is now merely experimenting with different production techniques and delivery methods. Covenant is a biopunk film, where the 'eggs' are to be understood as living chemical factories. The goal is an unlocking of human potential, a purification of mind and body. And this brings us back to Avatar, that cleaner and friendlier biopunk film. Are these 'neomorphs' not clearly avatars, embodiments of God, uncannily similar to Cameron's Na'vi? Of course they lack the (purely metaphorical) human face - but they are otherwise tall, lithe, impossibly strong, smooth-skinned with long tails.... This is the context for David's lines about waiting for Mother, and how humanity deserves death after ruining its ecosystem. "They killed their mother." Cameron's dream is Daniels' nightmare, and David is its orchestrator. It's the revenge of the plants. 
SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 22:03
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Biomute posted:Samus is healed by having the Metroid cell introduced to her body, it is not the cause of her near-death. She's all business about being a hybrid. The X, an unrelated alien race, are the ones to run rampant on the station, not the Metroids. The Samus clone is also an X, not a Metroid. There is a secret lab with Metroids in the game though. You have to be careful.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:13
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Arglebargle III posted:Me to this thread: Alien 3 "Assembly Cut" was loving awesome.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:31
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Yes, but when you're talking about Walter and David, from the jump, you are talking about the same character. You don't have to wait the entire film to acknowledge this. This is going to be the new "is Deckard a replicant or not" in a few years where once again people miss that the point is it doesn't matter and that Walter must be different after David gives him the gift of creativity (like a modern Prometheus). Like Blade Runner there's even conflicting "clues" between our final guy both misssing his hand but also not regenerating his face wound. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 22:50
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CelticPredator posted:He cuts off his hand with a knife and maybe kills Walter with the same knife. Do what Ridley wants you to do, make up the rest of the story. When left to your imagination anyone could think anything even maybe confusing themselves into believing Prometheus was a good movie.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:07
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Tenzarin posted:Do what Ridley wants you to do, make up the rest of the story. When left to your imagination anyone could think anything even maybe confusing themselves into believing Prometheus was a good movie. Prometheus is loving awesome.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:09
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Neo Rasa posted:Prometheus is loving awesome. Don't waste your time with him, Neo.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:24
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Lets not act like the D.C. Thread in here. If someone dislikes the films, no worries!
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Jun 19, 2017 23:27
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So, SMG, did you write that at the strip joint where you work, or was it still written one handed?
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Jun 19, 2017 23:35
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