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I actually really enjoyed all of the timey-wimey quantum universe stuff that Infinite did, but hooooly hell did it gently caress up the entire plotline with Columbia being a racist city and the entire arc of the Vox. Ken Levine - "But when you think about it, slaves rebelling against their masters are probably just as bad, because violence."
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Jun 19, 2017 11:43
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The problem with Infinite is it's three disparate script drafts stapled together with portals. That is also true!
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Jun 19, 2017 12:29
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It's really difficult to do good writing in video games because it takes a deft hand and a lot of thought to balance the writing and gameplay. It's almost impossible to do good writing in AAA games because you're expected to fit several molds of "a shitload of people will buy this." It's also a general uphill battle because so many gamers and creators believe "good writing" means "good cutscenes" and nothing else.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:29
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BioShock Infinite is well written, it's just also thoughtless about many of the ideas that are ancillary to the main thread, and in that sense it's poorly written. The tuning of the gameplay is also awful to the point that the game gets substantially worse for every difficulty step above Easy.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:53
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Some points of the game can be quite on the nose as well. The part where they sing will the circle be unbroken is so blatant I just sat there irritated, because nothing is more obvious than when you try to sound deep and fail miserably. It reminded me of the point in bioshock 1 after the reveal where Fontaine calls you up to mock you about using the phrase "would you kindly?" The confrontation with Ryan already hammered the point home, but frank gloating about it after the fact sounded more like irrational patting themselves on the back for writing such a clever twist. I'm a big proponent that gameplay comes before story, so I still prefer the rapture games to infinite because they're actually really fun to play instead of just being a tour through racist floaty land between good booker/Elizabeth sequences. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 17:01
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FoldableHuman posted:BioShock Infinite is well written It's not
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Jun 19, 2017 17:01
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E3 Winners and Losers (Jimquisition): https://youtu.be/lvJPsALe3kU
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Jun 19, 2017 18:26
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MariusLecter posted:E3 Winners and Losers (Jimquisition): https://youtu.be/lvJPsALe3kU Guess I gotta watch that devolver digital press conference now. Is it weird I don't get excited for E3? Like, I'll watch the highlights and what's coming later? No need to watch a live stream of a big budget commercial. That said, "Yay, more XCOM 2 DLC"
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Jun 19, 2017 19:07
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BigRed0427 posted:Guess I gotta watch that devolver digital press conference now. No, it's not weird. Most of it's boring.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:10
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My favorite thing about E3 this year is they were apparently so hungry for cash that they let people buy tickets to the show but didn't actually invest any money into accommodating the extra attendance, so you just ended up with a bunch of randos paying hundreds of dollars to come in, get in everyone's way, stand in line at booths for four hours, watch some previews they could've just as easily seen at home on youtube and then leave.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:18
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WampaLord posted:I actually really enjoyed all of the timey-wimey quantum universe stuff that Infinite did, but hooooly hell did it gently caress up the entire plotline with Columbia being a racist city and the entire arc of the Vox. I didn't really see that as the point, I just thought it was more that the oppressed, regardless of their rightness of their cause, will ultimately turn into oppressors. I think there was a better way to make that point, but I mean history is full of examples. The bigger problem I had is that it happens so quickly. I didn't even realise people didn't like the end of that game. I thought it was a great meta point on the nature of sequels. Thompsons posted:My favorite thing about E3 this year is they were apparently so hungry for cash that they let people buy tickets to the show but didn't actually invest any money into accommodating the extra attendance, so you just ended up with a bunch of randos paying hundreds of dollars to come in, get in everyone's way, stand in line at booths for four hours, watch some previews they could've just as easily seen at home on youtube and then leave. The guys talked about this on GiantBomb. They said it was literally the same setup as last year, but with a hell of a lot more people. But at the same time, judging from the interviews with people there, they seemed pretty happy to be spending hours waiting to play ASSASSIN'S CREED.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:36
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WampaLord posted:I actually really enjoyed all of the timey-wimey quantum universe stuff that Infinite did, but hooooly hell did it gently caress up the entire plotline with Columbia being a racist city and the entire arc of the Vox. For a solid while, I thought the point of the Vox revolt timeline was that they became violent oppressors because they'd been following Booker, and the point of the game was that Booker was a hyperviolent meathead dipshit who saw violence in slow-mo jets of candy red blood, and who ruined everything because all he understands is shooting people in the face. But then the DLC came out, and Ken Levine made it very clear that it was all Daisy's fault, it was all her, and no one else, and that she did it because the Luteces told her to as part of their plan to motivate Elizabeth to do the ending of the game. And they quote loving Martin Luther King at her. And that's why Ken Levine ruins everything.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:44
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White people writing about how white people use another white person and misappropriates a black man's words, shocking.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:49
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That DLC managed to be all sorts of lovely. Not only did it gently caress up what I thought was a pertinent message in the original game (that violence of the kind Booker represents is bad no matter which side is perpetrating it) it also ruined Elizabeth’s character in the process. First she does something horrible in the previous DLC that she now has to atone for, and then she ends up dying to the first game’s villain as a convoluted way to set up the events of that game. Oh, and she’s lost all of her cool powers so you can’t even have fun with those, and instead you have to rely on stealth mechanics that make the game’s shooting look polished by comparison. Basically what I’m saying is; everybody play Dishonored 2 if you haven’t already. It’s got a female protagonist who’s not a sidekick, good stealth mechanics and a well-written story that does some cool things with time travel without turning into a convoluted mess.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:13
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ElNarez posted:For a solid while, I thought the point of the Vox revolt timeline was that they became violent oppressors because they'd been following Booker, and the point of the game was that Booker was a hyperviolent meathead dipshit who saw violence in slow-mo jets of candy red blood, and who ruined everything because all he understands is shooting people in the face. This is why I assert that Infinite is well written, but not well considered. The core thread of Booker as a cursed emblem of violence works, the way he as booth Booker and Comstock become the same kind of person, that both Booker and Comstock teach Elizabeth to kill (Booker enabling her killing of Fitzroy, Comstock turning her into a conquering warlord), this all works, and it works well. What doesn't work are the adjacent optics, that even with the implication that Booker is the corrupting influence on the Vox, it's not exactly a good look when you pose what is functionally a slave uprising as being equally vicious as their former masters, especially when the on-screen face of that isn't Vox!Booker but Fitzroy. Which is to say that in the Vox Uprising timeline it should have been Booker leading the Vox in the wake of Fitzroy's assassination, leading up to Elizabeth killing Vox!Booker and, in turn, further foreshadowing the ending.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:37
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I'm still not really sure what the ending of Infinite is supposed to symbolize. Or maybe I do know but I refuse to acknowledge that the intended meaning could be that stupid.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:40
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I originally thought there was something about Infinite I didn't "get" and then I replayed it and decided nah it was just really dumb and poorly written.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:38
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Ghost Trick's already been written so there's no point for any other video game maker to try to write another game because nothing's going to beat it
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Jun 20, 2017 00:01
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Bioshock Infinite looked a hellva lot more interesting when it was first shown off, and every demo they showed for a couple of years had all these big, cool ideas that ultimately didn't materialize in the final game, like Elizabeth helping in combat or interacting with the environment in interesting ways. I remember keeping up with the details as they were released, then playing the game and noticing that basically none of them were really there outside of a few scripted scenes and half baked ideas. Oh, and the writing sucked, too, but considering how much of the game that had been showed off in trailers and demos that ended up being scrapped from the main game, I'm not surprised that's the case.Calaveron posted:Ghost Trick's already been written so there's no point for any other video game maker to try to write another game because nothing's going to beat it Ghost Trick was 7 years ago. We can at least hope to get one Ghost Trick level game every five years or so, that's not too much to ask.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:11
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Bioshock Infinite looked a hellva lot more interesting when it was first shown off, and every demo they showed for a couple of years had all these big, cool ideas that ultimately didn't materialize in the final game, like Elizabeth helping in combat or interacting with the environment in interesting ways. I remember keeping up with the details as they were released, then playing the game and noticing that basically none of them were really there outside of a few scripted scenes and half baked ideas. Oh, and the writing sucked, too, but considering how much of the game that had been showed off in trailers and demos that ended up being scrapped from the main game, I'm not surprised that's the case. Yeah but then we get garbage like Far Cry 3 which starts off with a fukken Alice in Wonderland quote or trying its damnedest to be cheeky or clever or trying to satirize our actual garbage reality but failing because we live in the strangest timeline GTA5 or any recent JRPG which is either painfully generic or just climbs up its rear end in a top hat in a big hurry or your generic oo rah fps with tv and movie super stars lending their voices and likenesses Meanwhile a niche Nintendo DS game has an incredibly engaging and compelling story with a huge, lovable and memorable cast of characters that is both funny as all get out and also super effective at tugging on your heart strings with a super interesting villain complemented with some of the best music and sprite animations just running circles at a hundred miles per hour around any triple AAA game that's come out since Its only misstep would be the garbo stealth sequence halfway through but at least it's short Calaveron fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 00:23
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Bioshock Infinite lost me when you have an extended running firefight with a ghost in what is otherwise a pretty well-grounded sci-fi/time travel setting.
Deport The Irish fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 01:19
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DrVenkman posted:I didn't really see that as the point, I just thought it was more that the oppressed, regardless of their rightness of their cause, will ultimately turn into oppressors. I think there was a better way to make that point, but I mean history is full of examples. Yea, but considering we had an actual war in our country involving freeing slaves and those slaves didn't go on to become violent oppressors... maybe this wasn't the setting for a "oppressed become the oppressors" story, particularly when your "main" plot is about something else entirely, maybe just focus on that and let the slaves have an unambiguous win. ElNarez posted:But then the DLC came out, and Ken Levine made it very clear that it was all Daisy's fault, it was all her, and no one else, and that she did it because the Luteces told her to as part of their plan to motivate Elizabeth to do the ending of the game. And they quote loving Martin Luther King at her. And that's why Ken Levine ruins everything. Also this.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:23
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Not even Shu Takumi can make another Ghost Trick. Have you seen his more recent attempts at writing for Phoenix Wright? Two stories that were mediocre at best and one unfinished? Yeesh.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:23
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WampaLord posted:Yea, but considering we had an actual war in our country involving freeing slaves and those slaves didn't go on to become violent oppressors... also worth noting the 'oppressed become the oppressors' thing almost never happens except in cases of already existing despots taking over and using that as an excuse to expand their power and loot. It's 100% an invention of speculative fiction meant to be all 'hey sure let's say I agree the (minority groups) are being treated bad...but what if they treat US like WE treat THEM???? So yea, can't help em. Too risky."
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Jun 20, 2017 01:28
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The only time oppressed become oppressors works is when there is a moral equivalence between the two sides, and that is not what you get with an ostensible slave uprising.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:30
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WampaLord posted:Yea, but considering we had an actual war in our country involving freeing slaves and those slaves didn't go on to become violent oppressors... The Haitian Revolution, the world's only successful slave revolt, ended with Dessalines ordering the extermination of the island's entire white French population, so it's not like Levine was pulling that out of nowhere. Though I still fully agree that it was a dumb move to try to make you feel bad about the the deaths of the nameless but cartoonishly evil population of Colombia, a city without even a single sympathetic resident.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:41
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Deport The Irish posted:The Haitian Revolution, the world's only successful slave revolt, ended with Dessalines ordering the extermination of the island's entire white French population, so it's not like Levine was pulling that out of nowhere. Though I still fully agree that it was a dumb move to try to make you feel bad about the the deaths of the nameless but cartoonishly evil population of Colombia, a city without even a single sympathetic resident. But the game is explicitly about American racism/slavery, and our slaves did not end up doing that, so again...why? Why tell this plotline unless... sexpig by night posted:It's 100% an invention of speculative fiction meant to be all 'hey sure let's say I agree the (minority groups) are being treated bad...but what if they treat US like WE treat THEM???? So yea, can't help em. Too risky."
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Jun 20, 2017 01:43
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Kay Kessler posted:Not even Shu Takumi can make another Ghost Trick. Have you seen his more recent attempts at writing for Phoenix Wright? Two stories that were mediocre at best and one unfinished? Yeesh. Uh, he didn't write the last two Phoneix Wright games? Both PW5 and PW6 were Takeshi Yamazaki affairs. He did write the spin-off one set in the past with Sherlock Holmes, though, but as of right now that's not translated out of Japan so I dunno if it's any good.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:49
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WampaLord posted:But the game is explicitly about American racism/slavery, and our slaves did not end up doing that, so again...why? Why tell this plotline unless... You're trying to compare the US Civil War to a Slave Revolt/Communist Revolution. That's pretty dumb, dude.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:52
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Uh, he didn't write the last two Phoneix Wright games? Both PW5 and PW6 were Takeshi Yamazaki affairs. I think they're talking about Layton vs. Ace Attorney and the one you're talking about. Which is unfinished.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:53
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Deport The Irish posted:You're trying to compare the US Civil War to a Slave Revolt/Communist Revolution. That's pretty dumb, dude. No, the game is, if your theory is correct. It's not, though. FoldableHuman posted:This is why I assert that Infinite is well written, but not well considered. The core thread of Booker as a cursed emblem of violence works, the way he as booth Booker and Comstock become the same kind of person, that both Booker and Comstock teach Elizabeth to kill (Booker enabling her killing of Fitzroy, Comstock turning her into a conquering warlord), this all works, and it works well. What doesn't work are the adjacent optics, that even with the implication that Booker is the corrupting influence on the Vox, it's not exactly a good look when you pose what is functionally a slave uprising as being equally vicious as their former masters, especially when the on-screen face of that isn't Vox!Booker but Fitzroy. Which is to say that in the Vox Uprising timeline it should have been Booker leading the Vox in the wake of Fitzroy's assassination, leading up to Elizabeth killing Vox!Booker and, in turn, further foreshadowing the ending. I feel like the game maybe could have done this, if Daisy mentioned anything about it to Booker instead of just going "The Booker I knew is dead, time to murder this new one that just showed up."
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Jun 20, 2017 01:56
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WampaLord posted:No, the game is, if your theory is correct. It's not, though. I already said the game is dumb, but actually you're dumb too. Hth.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:59
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Puppy Time posted:It's really difficult to do good writing in video games because it takes a deft hand and a lot of thought to balance the writing and gameplay. It's almost impossible to do good writing in AAA games because you're expected to fit several molds of "a shitload of people will buy this." I love this illustration of how game writing ends up being so bad - in game form!
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Jun 20, 2017 02:30
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Bioshock Infinite looked a hellva lot more interesting when it was first shown off, and every demo they showed for a couple of years had all these big, cool ideas that ultimately didn't materialize in the final game, like Elizabeth helping in combat or interacting with the environment in interesting ways. I remember keeping up with the details as they were released, then playing the game and noticing that basically none of them were really there outside of a few scripted scenes and half baked ideas. Oh, and the writing sucked, too, but considering how much of the game that had been showed off in trailers and demos that ended up being scrapped from the main game, I'm not surprised that's the case. It seemed liked they must have scrapped two whole games by the time they launched Infinite, with how different the final product was from the gameplay videos.
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Jun 20, 2017 02:46
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Mr. Fowl posted:It seemed liked they must have scrapped two whole games by the time they launched Infinite, with how different the final product was from the gameplay videos. I think the devs have said this is literally the case.
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Jun 20, 2017 03:00
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Deport The Irish posted:The Haitian Revolution, the world's only successful slave revolt, ended with Dessalines ordering the extermination of the island's entire white French population, so it's not like Levine was pulling that out of nowhere. Though I still fully agree that it was a dumb move to try to make you feel bad about the the deaths of the nameless but cartoonishly evil population of Colombia, a city without even a single sympathetic resident.
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Jun 20, 2017 03:01
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Also this came after Napoleon had Toussaint L'Ouverture murdered instead of accepting a french province of free blacks.
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Jun 20, 2017 03:10
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MonsieurChoc posted:Also this came after Napoleon had Toussaint L'Ouverture murdered instead of accepting a french province of free blacks. La liberté ŕ moi, pas ŕ toi, that old fan favorite.
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Jun 20, 2017 03:12
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Deport The Irish posted:I already said the game is dumb, but actually you're dumb too. Hth. Maybe we SHOULD deport the Irish
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Jun 20, 2017 03:16
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Uh, he didn't write the last two Phoneix Wright games? Both PW5 and PW6 were Takeshi Yamazaki affairs. The two mediocre ones I was referring to were Apollo Justice and the Layton crossover, both which weren't exactly well-recieved. The untranslated spinoff was literally unfinished, and ended on a sequel hook, which pissed a lot of people off.
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Jun 20, 2017 03:24
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