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Stymie posted:why is anything you're doing more important than giving someone a shot to try and learn? that might work in ditchdigging but in skilled professions it turns out knowing things matters
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Jun 19, 2017 21:46
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Bloody posted:that might work in ditchdigging but in skilled professions it turns out knowing things matters that's the thing: these tests don't actually test if you know anything they test if the person administering the test wants the person taking the test to pass and subsequently provides a cover if any uncomfortable questions about the people that weren't hired come up the only way you know if the person you hired can do the job is if they do the job also lol at programming being "skilled"
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Jun 19, 2017 21:54
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i wish any time a programmer described their profession as "skilled" a pipefitter was there to brain them with a wrench
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Jun 19, 2017 21:56
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every job is a learning opportunity, there's literally no use for a senior or midlevel who can drop in and start contributing immediately mentoring is free, doesn't take any time away from the existing staff and withholding it can only be borne of spite towards new hires
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Jun 19, 2017 21:59
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giving notice rules especially when it reaffirms all the reasons you had for job hunting in the first place
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Jun 19, 2017 22:06
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ThePeavstenator posted:I'm still stuck on how a skills test is more racist than literally any other part of the hiring process. Why are you idiots engaging stymie?
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Jun 19, 2017 22:33
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gosh it's not as though we've already had examples in this thread of interviewers using ridiculous minutia in their skills test to weed out candidates that may not have the exact same schooling that they've had (i.e. including a method they can use to disqualify a candidate whenever they choose while maintaining the illusion of objectivity)
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Jun 19, 2017 23:09
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Stymie posted:because it's easier to produce evidence that an applicant didn't pass your (arbitrary and rigged) skills test than any other reason because you'd have to justify why all your "poor culture fits" all had indian or pakistani last names I'm the companies that have had to justify their poor culture fit no hires
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Jun 19, 2017 23:19
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IDK why you guys are arguing with someone who admitted to not knowing anything about hiring people when they mused about hiring managers being held accountable for people they don't hiremishaq posted:why the gently caress would you want a company car unless your job involves a lot of driving in which case your job/life sucks I don't but am curious about what company it is
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Jun 19, 2017 23:21
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we just rejected a team lead candidate for not only not being able to implement naive recursive fibonacci but for arguing that the four-line solution we ended up giving him wasn't correct because "but you have to calculate all the previous values first," aka the thing that every freshman says the first time they see recursion. (he wasn't arguing about performance, but about correctness.) as a frequent supporter of the "tech screens rarely, if ever, test skills that will be actually used on the job" line i am very conflicted about this. obviously no we don't use the actual fibonacci sequence ever, and i believe i have used a recursive method in production code like once every two years. but you've got 20 years of experience on your resume and seem to never have even encountered recursion, like, as a concept? what does that mean?
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Jun 19, 2017 23:48
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i know it's often wishful thinking but every now and again companies get sued when their hiring practices are questionable things like "skill tests" are methods to insulate companies against such things, and it's pretty pathetic when they get defended as being anything but
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Jun 20, 2017 00:00
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skill tests are 90% racism and 10% weeding out the real losers who share your race. is that a fair compromise?
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Jun 20, 2017 00:08
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no because the 10% still assumes that programming is a "skill"
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Jun 20, 2017 00:16
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what is it then
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Jun 20, 2017 00:19
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qhat posted:Why are you idiots engaging stymie?
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Jun 20, 2017 00:24
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it's a lifestyle
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Jun 20, 2017 00:25
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power botton posted:what is it then the closest comparable act would be masturbation
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Jun 20, 2017 00:26
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Stymie posted:the closest comparable act would be masturbation so, yosposting
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Jun 20, 2017 00:26
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raminasi posted:but you've got 20 years of experience on your resume 20 × 1 year of experience strikes again.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:48
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Failed the interview, was asked to implement a resizable stack in C but wasn't allowed to compile or debug, was expected to spot small bugs directly from the source code lol. Oh well.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:04
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qhat posted:Failed the interview, was asked to implement a resizable stack in C but wasn't allowed to compile or debug, was expected to spot small bugs directly from the source code lol. Oh well. wow that's a red flag
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Jun 20, 2017 01:27
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for sure. c in 2017??
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Jun 20, 2017 01:31
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Shaggar posted:for sure. c in 2017?? womp womp
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Jun 20, 2017 01:32
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PierreTheMime posted:ive taken no less than a dozen recruiter calls for the job i just quit. its not every day you get the job description you wrote read back to you by hopeful 3rd parties a few jobs ago i was at lunch with a bunch of discontents from my same employer. one of them had dug up a job ad by my employer for my own, personal position at roughly 1.5x my salary, and we were all having a proper bitch fest. i was somewhat surprised to discover this was 2x or 3x some of their salaries turns out, come review time, i was the only one with the brazen balls required to throw it in their faces and pitch a fuckin fit i rocked a 50% raise on that one, and i didn't even do the leg work
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Jun 20, 2017 03:15
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the tl;dr on that shouldn't be "omg that dude got lucky". it should be that review time is just business you can throw dubious poo poo in their faces and pitch a fit and bitch and moan and nobody is gonna hold it against you more than usual i dared to use a lovely scrap of public info to pitch a fit and i got rewarded handsomely. the worst case scenario was that i got the same as usual. nobody was gonna fire me or gently caress with me extra plus for daring to ask it's just business
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Jun 20, 2017 03:17
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ive changed my mind. the worst part about getting a new job is having to show my house. you absolutely can't have pets in the house while they show it so i have to spend 5 hours tomorrow just loving driving around with my pets doing ??? cuz i have nowhere to take them.
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Jun 20, 2017 04:05
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raminasi posted:we just rejected a team lead candidate for not only not being able to implement naive recursive fibonacci but for arguing that the four-line solution we ended up giving him wasn't correct because "but you have to calculate all the previous values first," aka the thing that every freshman says the first time they see recursion. (he wasn't arguing about performance, but about correctness.)
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Jun 20, 2017 04:15
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recursion comes up naturally when you try to parse something. also once or twice I needed a bespoke levenshtein-like distance function I know you could just write it with an explicit stack and all instead but when you're just throwing around code to solve a problem fast, recursion feels easier in these cases imo
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Jun 20, 2017 04:38
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there are lots of inherently recursive UIs (trees) and business objects that can contain other objects of the same type; I'm sure it depends on the type of work but recursion is not that rare
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Jun 20, 2017 04:39
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ok yeah that's right, I forgot about directory tree recursion and there's probably some math-specific graph pathfinding poo poo too to me it still smacks of someone trying too hard to be clever
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Jun 20, 2017 04:43
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cis autodrag posted:ive changed my mind. the worst part about getting a new job is having to show my house. you absolutely can't have pets in the house while they show it so i have to spend 5 hours tomorrow just loving driving around with my pets doing ??? cuz i have nowhere to take them. do they have dog parks? i can walk with my dog for hours too. sorry if you have a teacup poodle or whatever though
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Jun 20, 2017 05:08
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i use recursion all the time in my functional programming hobbyist stuff.
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Jun 20, 2017 05:42
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cis autodrag posted:ive changed my mind. the worst part about getting a new job is having to show my house. you absolutely can't have children in the house while they show it so i have to spend 5 hours tomorrow just loving driving around with my children doing ??? cuz i have nowhere to take them. fixed that for
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Jun 20, 2017 05:44
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also hopefully that makes your post sound as silly to you as it sounds to me? you live (temporarily) in wisconsin. it is loving june, one of 3 months where it is nice outside in wisconsin. take your fucken dag to the fucken dag park, jesus
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Jun 20, 2017 05:46
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hey y'all someone is about to give me a p deece six figgies for this house so i can book it the gently caress out of the midwest asap, and he has the nerve to ask for a pitbull-free tour with the realtor? totally unreasonable, am i right folks? you've joined the privileged class, so get used to people talking to you like this
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Jun 20, 2017 05:51
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cis autodrag posted:ive changed my mind. the worst part about getting a new job is having to show my house. you absolutely can't have pets in the house while they show it so i have to spend 5 hours tomorrow just loving driving around with my pets doing ??? cuz i have nowhere to take them. given that youre moving away, maybe go somewhere that youve been wanting to go but hadnt yet
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Jun 20, 2017 05:54
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Bhodi posted:I have never seen recursion in any production my professional career with the exception of enumerators, and if I recall function recursion is flat-out banned by a bunch of style guides i use em for iterating over (predefined) directory trees sometimes. i just checked a codebase i work on and there are 4 instances which all fit this scenario (for performing operations against node trees in zk specifically) efb Progressive JPEG fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 05:57
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back on topic: lack of knowledge or dislike of recursion is an immediate disqualification for me. sorry, we're done, NEXT if you haven't encountered recursion, then you need to go hit the books. if you have, and you don't like it, that's universally because you have only encountered it in scenarios where the iterative alternative is often more obvious and natural. all this talk about tail recursion only emphasizes the point. true recursion is not a simple loop (though with inarguably better form), it is the necessary and proper method of processing an inherently recursive data structure. if you've ever worked with a json or xml file, that's a simple example of what i'm talking about. or programmed anything in a higher level language than assembly (cf parse trees as referenced by another poster above)
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Jun 20, 2017 05:59
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i mean i could have done some explicit stack juggling instead but it'd have been a bit less clean i do recommend tossing an explicit comment in there at the recursive call to make it real obvious/intentional, something like: code:
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Jun 20, 2017 06:03
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what makes it real obvious and intentional is that to process your X, you must first process the X contained within it note for enterprise oop programmers: it doesn't have to be f calling f to qualify as recursion. if you have f call g which calls h which calls j which calls f... that counts too motherfucker
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Jun 20, 2017 06:07
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