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bman in 2288 posted:What if I gave you a compliment? [ten minutes of witch cackling, unskippable]
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Jun 20, 2017 14:51
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Then perhaps you'd take a cat picture as payment?
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Jun 20, 2017 14:52
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bman in 2288 posted:Then perhaps you'd take a cat picture as payment? Is it just me or is the cackling getting louder... MagusDraco fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 14:56
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havenwaters posted:Is it just me or is the cackling is getting louder... I don't hear a thing, so maybe bribery is working! But if it's not, here's my current logic: So, the love game is supposed to be a way of showing that the family chose six particular family members to be a part of the prank on Erika. The Beato sisters thinking together, Zepar and Furfur allowing Beato to continue to watch, the two remaining pairs about to come to blows with one another... actually, although it's probably not the answer, the duel that's about to commence makes me think that the two rooms where the remaining household members are, they're going to start wondering what the hell is taking so long, and start looking for everyone. I dunno, I'm trying to look at this with love, that Battler and his lover can figure this out... Did someone from the rooms come and switch places with Battler? Shannon, Kanon, any of them? Because that's the best I can do right now.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:14
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You know... Kanon was never mentioned in red to be in his room... vv Uh huh, Uh huh, I like the cut of your jib! The only problem is the timing, though; could Shannon have slipped out of the room before it was sealed? resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 15:43
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Hmm. Based on the version of events I currently subscribe to, the love game is occurring because Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all the same person and therefore can't all be happy with their chosen person at the same time. (In fact, probably zero of them can be happy since lord knows what their prospective partners would think of all this, but leave that for now.) Shannon and Kanon appear to be imprisoned in different rooms. If we put that together with the ambiguity of the phrase "everyone else", can we get one of them out? Kanon is said to be in room A, then Erika moves to room B, and Shannon is there. Since the entire game is a prank to begin with, neither of those rooms is actually being guarded despite what Erika has said. Without the detective's authority, it's possible that she missed Kanon not really being in room A; she only confirmed with Battler that "everyone else" was in there, whereas Shannon was definitively confined to room B. So if we can get Shannon out of room B somehow, Kanon can rescue Battler in a way that will be extremely confusing to Erika (since she'll be defending the wrong room). As I mentioned before, they only have shown the seals on the door to be intact; nobody has checked the seals on the window yet. So what if Shannon goes out the window, then frees Battler as Kanon?
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Jun 20, 2017 15:47
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And here it is! The last piece of evidence for my theory! My theory for what, you ask? Well, for the question oooof.... Who or what is Bernkastel? Lotsa Higurashi spoilers, but no Umineko ones anymore. Basically, throughout Higurashi, there are two Rikas at any given time. The template Rika, and a copy Rika. The template Rika exists between the fragments, so we never truly meet her, but basically, at the start of every 'loop', the template Rika's 'soul' or whatever is copied into the native Rika of that fragment, overwriting it with her personality and (some of) her memories. Once a copy Rika dies, all of her memories are copied back into the template Rika, and so she can be said to have 'lived through' that 'loop' despite it technically being a copy of her that did so. Now, things go haywire once we get to the final 'loop', Matsuribayashi-hen. Because, you see, that's when the miracle finally happen, where Rika survives. Except, hold on, that's not "Rika" getting her wish granted, but "a Rika". See, that's the copy Rika who gets to experience that. The template Rika, the backup Rika, the Rika who remembers every single death she's ever experienced, SHE doesn't get to experience her survival, because the memories of a copy Rika only get uploaded into her when she dies, and the final Rika is unique because she was the only one who didn't die. In fact, the template Rika realizes that it's IMPOSSIBLE for her to ever experience the miracle of her survival, since even if she did die, it would mean that she didn't survive. In a way, even though the miracle happened, it never did. This, most of all, broke the template Rika and turned her into a witch. Remember, this is essentially the Minagoroshi-hen Rika, the Rika who finally had her hopes revived after having just about given up for a while now, the one who swore in her last moments to take down Takano no matter what, realising that her hopes and convictions were impossible to fulfill. I'm not sure where Saikoroshi-hen stands in relation to the template Rika, since the copy never actually died (I'm thinking the template might have been a witch already at this point and witnessed it from the outside) but it's very important for the copy Rika and the origin of the template's new name. Up to this point, both the template and the copies have thought of themselves as just 'Rika' but it's at this point that the final Rika acknowledges both the template and the copies created from it as being a distinct entity from the Rikas they replace, calling herself(es?) "Frederica Bernkastel". At the end, that's where Furude Rika and Frederica Bernkastel become two separate people, as the copy Rika resolves to live simply as "Rika". In contrast, the template doesn't, because it's realized the hopelessness of herself striving to be Furude Rika, and so becomes simply "Frederica Bernkastel".
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Jun 20, 2017 16:07
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resurgam40 posted:You know... Maybe, but I don't think she has to. Like I said, only the seals on the doors have been confirmed so far. If the next update has them checking the window seals, we'll have to figure something else out.
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Jun 20, 2017 16:16
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resurgam40 posted:You know... Erika and her crew only checked the door seals during their confrontation with Battler. So I think it's possible to say the windows were unsealed! edit: oops, beaten! 
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Jun 20, 2017 16:23
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bman in 2288 posted:Then perhaps you'd take a cat picture as payment? Ok. fine, I'll give you a hint. https://youtu.be/raNGeq3_DtM
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Jun 20, 2017 16:26
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A couple minor mistakes, easier to point out here than in discord:ProfessorProf posted:
ProfessorProf posted:
v Prof misses my discord pings sometimes and I never bother to check back if he actually fixes them tiistai fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 16:32
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"...About the rest of the manuscript, Hachijo. You write about the answer to the closed room trick and the truth behind various riddles, right?"
"Of course. However, I haven't written it so that those who fail to think or consider will understand..."
"...In that case, she should have quieted down and thought of an answer herself. Instead, she despicably left even the thinking entirely to her piece, Bern. Have you heard of the infinite monkey theorem?
"It's a theory... no, an absurdity... arguing that, if a monkey hits random letters on a typewriter for an infinite amount of time, he will probably end up with the exact same set of letters as Hamlet by coincidence, sooner or later."
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If we're talking errors, I should point this out: ProfessorProf posted:
I'm about 95% sure that 'merciful' line should be Bern. Probably  .I feel I should go back and check where Zepar/Furfur have referenced 'the miracle of love'. Why do I have this weird feeling that Erika's 'truth' is going to be something along the lines of "love is an illusion making you see things that aren't there".
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Jun 20, 2017 16:47
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"It is merciful. There's no restriction on the amount of time you have to make that choice. *giggle*, that's right, your time is endless, eternal."
"I... I'm sure there's still some way... some twisted logic that can get you out of this... Anyway, I'm sure there's still some way...!"
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So I went back and checked, and Erika confirms the presence of "Everyone Else" in the cousins' room before sealing both rooms with tape. Now we kinda have to assume that time stops on the game board during the meta-debates, but time is said to start moving again before Erika uses the seals. As presented, Dlanor's subordinates seal up both rooms with the duct tape instantly, but we know how magic works, so what actually happened is Erika ran around placing the seals herself one-by-one. This is not something you can do instantaneously. Furthermore, Kanon has been established as capable of entering a leaving a room without making a sound. Thus, Kanon left the cousins' room and hid in another room across the hall while Erika was taping up the next room over. This is possible because Erika is very explicitly not the detective, so someone with enough points in stealth can escape her notice.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:56
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Augmenting that blue, it's possible even Shannon slipped out before Erika sealed the room. Or both, if they're going to keep having Battler make Shannon and Kanon share scenes.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:59
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We know in red that Erika killed everyone. But when? At the end of the hurricane? If it's not in red, then it's not binding to say she killed them as soon as she got the chance.
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Jun 20, 2017 23:42
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EagerSleeper posted:We know in red that Erika killed everyone. But when? At the end of the hurricane? If it's not in red, then it's not binding to say she killed them as soon as she got the chance. Before entering Battler's room, probably to confirm that he's dead too (cut off his head).
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Jun 21, 2017 00:32
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Well, we know that it happened before the fight in Battler's room, because red can't predict the future. We know it has to have happened after the letter receipt, because the other 'dead' people had to have been the ones to drop it thanks to Battler still being sealed. So that really only leaves one point in time where those murders could have happened.
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Jun 21, 2017 00:41
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When I was thinking of alternate ways out of Battler's predicament, I thought about those wires and the nature of the closed rooms. Specifically, due to the nature of a Closed Room, if you stick a wire through the door and shut it, the wire should be cut in half, because nothing can pass through the door. I can think of ways to use that (and gravity) to reassemble the door hinges when shutting it from the outside, but I'm not sure if an answer involving specific knowledge of how doors work that hasn't been brought up in-game is the way to go.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:13
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Cyouni posted:Well, we know that it happened before the fight in Battler's room, because red can't predict the future. We know it has to have happened after the letter receipt, because the other 'dead' people had to have been the ones to drop it thanks to Battler still being sealed. So that really only leaves one point in time where those murders could have happened. I'm amused that when I theorized that the murders were done either one way or another, the answer was in fact sort of "both". Qrr posted:As for ways the murders could have been done, aside from "not killed at all" and "killed by Erika after the room got opened", it's kind of tough. And ZiegeDame, I think due to her rules of closed rooms when you close the door on a wire it either cuts the wire or fails to close. Doors do not become magical cutting devices. And I think reassembling the door from the outside breaks the closed room rules the same way it prevents shooting through a crack in the door - it's not physically impossible, but by definition of a closed room it didn't happen.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:54
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Fabulousvillain posted:Before entering Battler's room, probably to confirm that he's dead too (cut off his head). The time in which Erika killed everyone is only in white, not red, so the time has not been officially established. It's up to Battler here to realize that the people he is hoping to save him are not confirmed dead yet. Cyouni posted:Well, we know that it happened before the fight in Battler's room, because red can't predict the future. We know it has to have happened after the letter receipt, because the other 'dead' people had to have been the ones to drop it thanks to Battler still being sealed. So that really only leaves one point in time where those murders could have happened. It's not necessarily predicting the future, since the everybody on the island will be dead when the seagulls cry, but instead messing with the supposed series of events.
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Jun 21, 2017 02:00
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Qrr posted:And ZiegeDame, I think due to her rules of closed rooms when you close the door on a wire it either cuts the wire or fails to close. Doors do not become magical cutting devices. And I think reassembling the door from the outside breaks the closed room rules the same way it prevents shooting through a crack in the door - it's not physically impossible, but by definition of a closed room it didn't happen. Well yes, what I meant is it isn't unreasonable that, if you pinch a wire between the door and the door frame, the wire will break. What I'm trying to get at is the question of when does a closed room become a closed room. If you remove the chain it's not longer a closed room. If the door is open it isn't a closed room. So if it's an open room until you shut the door, then it becomes Closed, the rules about not being able to interfere across the boundary don't apply until you close the door, right? And you can totally shoot someone through the crack in the door caused by opening it while it's still chained, it's just that there haven't been any tricks where that is a viable solution because of the dead people too far from the door. Even Bern agrees that you can fit an entire human hand through the crack in the door  . In that way a chained but open door is not a Closed Room. I think the rule against setting the chain from the outside is separate from the definition of a Closed Room, except where powerful electromagnets and remote-controlled self-immolating chain-setting drones are concerned.Also traps are still allowed in a Closed Room. They haven't been used yet, but they are allowed. So anything that can be primed to go off from inside, but will go off without any further input could be used. But now I'm thinking about Mysterious Chain-Setting Device X so it's probably time to bring this stream of consciousness to a close.
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Jun 21, 2017 02:32
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EagerSleeper posted:It's not necessarily predicting the future, since the everybody on the island will be dead when the seagulls cry, but instead messing with the supposed series of events. When you say something in red, it's true when you say it. If you say someone is dead, it doesn't mean that they're alive now and will be dead in the future. If you say someone is a alive, it doesn't mean they were alive in the past but aren't now. Erika said that she killed them in red, and so it must be in the past. Unless you're asserting that she went into the room, sealed it, and then at some point unsealed it to go murder the people and came back and resealed it, which would give Battler a much more trivial way to escape.
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Jun 21, 2017 03:00
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Qrr posted:When you say something in red, it's true when you say it. If you say someone is dead, it doesn't mean that they're alive now and will be dead in the future. If you say someone is a alive, it doesn't mean they were alive in the past but aren't now. Erika said that she killed them in red, and so it must be in the past. Unless you're asserting that she went into the room, sealed it, and then at some point unsealed it to go murder the people and came back and resealed it, which would give Battler a much more trivial way to escape.  This kinda goes into my personal theory about the red truth, but to me, it seems as if it applies to the entire story that exists in the game master's head regardless of timing. Players are allowed to move their pieces on the game board, but it's supposed to not matter in the end because magic is totes real (tm). Battler is trying to pretend he's not making stuff up along the way, but Erika is trying to trip him up. So in my theory, timing of the red truth doesn't matter. So in this case, Erika isn't actually doing much to tell people about the timing of the deaths. She's only saying that she did them at some unknown point in time, and hoping that Battler doesn't ask when.
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Jun 21, 2017 03:51
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With this theory, how do you explain the declared red from Dlanor about everyone being unable to save Battler?
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Jun 21, 2017 03:52
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ProfessorProf posted:With this theory, how do you explain the declared red from Dlanor about everyone being unable to save Battler? They all had to go to the bathroom at the same time, thanks to the laxatives that Erika probably fed everyone earlier.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:07
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bman in 2288 posted:They all had to go to the bathroom at the same time, thanks to the laxatives that Erika probably fed everyone earlier. 
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Jun 21, 2017 04:24
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You have to admit, it's something that Erika would do.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:31
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EagerSleeper posted:
Red truth definitely doesn't apply regardless of timing. We've had time on red truth be very important in several cases. There are tons of red truths that wouldn't make sense if they weren't time-related. It is true that Erika's red truth there is true if she killed no people. On the other hand, "I re-killed all of them" is rather harder to work around.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:35
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bman in 2288 posted:Then perhaps you'd take a cat picture as payment? ahaha.wav
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Jun 21, 2017 04:45
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bman in 2288 posted:
 bman in 2288 posted:What if I gave you a compliment?  bman in 2288 posted:Then perhaps you'd take a cat picture as payment? 
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Jun 21, 2017 04:46
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bii posted:You have to admit, it's something that Erika would do. I wouldn't put it past Erika.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:49
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Man, I wanted to post that one so often during the question arc thread. But Erika is visible. And now that I can, I totally forgot. But ok you guys I wasn't kidding, here is another hint for you: https://polsy.org.uk/play/yt/?vurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtdhRwADrkYA&autostart=1
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Jun 21, 2017 05:07
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oath2order posted:Man, I wanted to post that one so often during the question arc thread. But Erika is visible. And now that I can, I totally forgot. I watched that whole thing and all I learned is that Ronove is the best. And I already knew that.
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Jun 21, 2017 05:19
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ZiegeDame posted:When I was thinking of alternate ways out of Battler's predicament, I thought about those wires and the nature of the closed rooms. Specifically, due to the nature of a Closed Room, if you stick a wire through the door and shut it, the wire should be cut in half, because nothing can pass through the door. I can think of ways to use that (and gravity) to reassemble the door hinges when shutting it from the outside, but I'm not sure if an answer involving specific knowledge of how doors work that hasn't been brought up in-game is the way to go. Knox's 4th: It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be USED. EagerSleeper posted:The time in which Erika killed everyone is only in white, not red, so the time has not been officially established. It's up to Battler here to realize that the people he is hoping to save him are not confirmed dead yet. That's...a mildly questionable series of events. By that rationale, game 3 is invalid because Eva BEATRICE declared Battler to be alive, and then he got shot.
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Jun 21, 2017 05:26
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ProfessorProf posted:With this theory, how do you explain the declared red from Dlanor about everyone being unable to save Battler? Honest answer: I'm wondering if it's possible for later red truth to undo previous red truth. After all, Battler is the one telling the story/DMing with a single player who keeps retroactively changing things, so maybe Battler can play at that too. It's a guess. I'm probably just going to go with Sayo helping Battler out, because of the deal with true names being used to evade red truth. Meanwhile, bman in 2288 posted:They all had to go to the bathroom at the same time, thanks to the laxatives that Erika probably fed everyone earlier. I won't let anyone besmirch the honor of this beautiful theory. Anyone who has a problem with this can meet me at dawn. Bring your pistols. Qrr posted:Red truth definitely doesn't apply regardless of timing. We've had time on red truth be very important in several cases. There are tons of red truths that wouldn't make sense if they weren't time-related. I'm probably going to have to look this up later because I don't remember the details so much, but wasn't it an issue last episode when Natsuhi was suspected that only she could have done it in a very strict time frame? Didn't they eventually change that around because the only red truth was that people died, not what time the murder took place? I'm sure Natsuhi got off the hook because Battler managed to discover an alternate time that the murder took place at, even though there was supposedly red truth. Re-killed is actually very easy to work around. Just ask what the heck does re-kill actually mean? Erika is assuming so far that people who "died" once are actually faking. Does being re-killed mean to die a second fake death? Erika is implying that it means to murder again, but no actual murders have happened in the first place. What is going on here? My defense is pretty much the same as "define the word corpse" in the last game. Let's not go with what's implied, let's just find ways in which non-absolute red truth can be slipped out of. Cyouni posted:That's...a mildly questionable series of events. By that rationale, game 3 is invalid because Eva BEATRICE declared Battler to be alive, and then he got shot. Maybe at the end of this story, it will turn out that Battler is still alive (and hanging out with Ange woo), so it won't technically be wrong. Who knows? quote:beatrice troll dance and what is love Perfection. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 05:46
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Cyouni posted:Knox's 4th: It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be USED. A wire loop being pinched in a door is hard to understand?
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Jun 21, 2017 06:47
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ZiegeDame posted:A wire loop being pinched in a door is hard to understand? I'm pretty sure any thing that uses the scientific application of closed rooms and door disassembly would probably fall under that category. Basically anything where you'd need a long explanation of exactly how your wire loop interacts with the door. EagerSleeper posted:Honest answer: I'm wondering if it's possible for later red truth to undo previous red truth. After all, Battler is the one telling the story/DMing with a single player who keeps retroactively changing things, so maybe Battler can play at that too. It's a guess. I'm probably just going to go with Sayo helping Battler out, because of the deal with true names being used to evade red truth. Decently sure that having directly contradicting red truths would result in a logic error. Or that it's just impossible.
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Jun 21, 2017 06:54
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EagerSleeper posted:
The issue was that the "murders" were discovered in the morning of the second day (iirc), but the actual death declarations weren't given until the 24:00 answer session at the end of the game, in the Court of Illusions. They never state WHEN the deaths occurred, only that no deaths occurred before 24:00 of the previous day. So there was a full 24 hours that the murders could have taken place in, not just "before they were discovered."
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Jun 21, 2017 07:17
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Cyouni posted:I'm pretty sure any thing that uses the scientific application of closed rooms and door disassembly would probably fall under that category. Basically anything where you'd need a long explanation of exactly how your wire loop interacts with the door. Well like I said, the lack of any previous mention of how doors work vis-a-vis hinges probably means that isn't going to the the solution to this puzzle. But there was an earlier discussion about simply tools made of wire being used to set chains, so whatever trick Battler eventually comes up with is going to use that wire and the cutters. I don't expect it to be any more complex than the way the shower was rigged.
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Jun 21, 2017 07:20
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| # ? May 17, 2024 19:17 |
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With Beato trying hard to rescue Battler, and the focus on love I'm thinking the answer will just be that she rescues Battler, the only question is whose body she'll be in when she does it, Sayo?, Yoshia?, hell, maybe Battler, that way they don't even need to open the door to swap  That does go against pretty much all of the previous episodes, but gently caress it, I think there's something up with him, so I may as well go full hog with it.
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Jun 21, 2017 08:20
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