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There is nothing I hate more in this game than a US carrier player with a strike build. If they're against a decent CV, they get poo poo on. If they're against another US CV with a strike build, planes run around uncontested for the entire game. Either way, they'll do worse than a Japanese CV in the same role. Use your loving fighters gently caress
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Jun 21, 2017 05:01
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Blame Wargaming? Strike is the only viable loadout for USN. Air Supremacy is boring to play, gives zero XP and doesn't actively help your team win. Balanced makes you poo poo at everything.
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Jun 21, 2017 05:29
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I do blame Wargaming, but also the people dumb enough to play USN carriers when the Japanese are right there. I don't know how you could see the Ranger and go, "Yeah, looks good." I don't know how you could get through the Ranger and decide to smack yourself in the nutsack with the Lexington.
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Jun 21, 2017 05:37
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Vengarr posted:Blame Wargaming? Strike is the only viable loadout for USN. AS actively helps your team win. Your team just needs to be actually good enough to take advantage of permaspotted hostiles and still have enough brain cells left to identify that you being AS doesn't mean immunity to air strikes. US CVs have some intensely bullshit ammo and powerful strafes, they can easily control sections of the map with their fighters and provide lots of detection, and if your team is smart enough, this plus the cover you give them should be much more valuable compared to the threat of bombers. You're more likely to see AS ships in team situations as a result. Being able to spot people for a smoked up deathball (and incoming torps) is very nice. Randoms, however, are very hit-or-miss. It doesn't matter how great you've been spotting the DD if your lovely BBs just sail into the torps anyways. If your team can't hit their shots, then no damage gets done. And if pubbies go off alone, the hostile CV can usually tie your fighters up long enough to strike them.
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Jun 21, 2017 06:25
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Its arguable whether AS helps win or not because as you say, friendlies taking advantage of the vision is unquantifiable. Whereas an AS Ranger or Lexington doing less damage in a full game than any other CV can do with one strike is measureable. And even the best AS player will let one strike through at some point. Strike Lexington does have one good thing though, if you are in a T10 game with stuff like Des Moines, Montana and Minotaur, enough poo poo is going to get shot down regardless that it hardly matters who has fighters. I played a game in Shokaku yesterday in this scenario vs a strike Lex and I ended up with hardly any planes. Even the Grozonoi is a loving nightmare vs T8 planes, because it and Minotaur can be shooting stuff down and you can't even see them. I really think this will be a thing of the past soon enough, I suspect they are going to announce changes to USN loadouts very soon. NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I do blame Wargaming, but also the people dumb enough to play USN carriers when the Japanese are right there. I don't know how you could see the Ranger and go, "Yeah, looks good." I don't know how you could get through the Ranger and decide to smack yourself in the nutsack with the Lexington. Ranger is complete hell I would imagine, it is massively outclassed by everything else it can face. You could even argue Ryujo is a better CV than Ranger. Essex is fine though and I think Midway is probably OK as well. Both still inferior to IJN but at least close. If they give Essex those AP bombs as currently implemented it could single-handedly reduce the BB population by 25%.
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Jun 21, 2017 09:45
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Hazdoc posted:AS actively helps your team win. Your team just needs to be actually good enough to take advantage of permaspotted hostiles and still have enough brain cells left to identify that you being AS doesn't mean immunity to air strikes. US CVs have some intensely bullshit ammo and powerful strafes, they can easily control sections of the map with their fighters and provide lots of detection, and if your team is smart enough, this plus the cover you give them should be much more valuable compared to the threat of bombers. This should not be understated. I play AS all the time with US carriers, and i stopped counting the amount of time I'm spotting a DD launch his torps, follow tge torps the whole time to make sure they remain spotted only to see a BB sail straight into them 8 or 9 km later.
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Jun 21, 2017 12:07
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Haha my first supercontainer in forever is a +30% spotter plane time mod, which goes in the same slot as the dispersion upgrade (i.e. no loving way). I would have accepted credits just fine!
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Jun 21, 2017 13:17
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Where da guided missl @?
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Jun 21, 2017 13:24
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Rorac posted:I must be mis-remembering. It's been a while since I saw the chart covering it, I thought those ships could heal more citadel damage. kaesarsosei posted:Its arguable whether AS helps win or not because as you say, friendlies taking advantage of the vision is unquantifiable. Whereas an AS Ranger or Lexington doing less damage in a full game than any other CV can do with one strike is measureable. And even the best AS player will let one strike through at some point.
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Jun 21, 2017 13:35
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AS vs Strike. It shouldn't even be an issue. Complete pig-headedness from Wargaming. The easy and balanced solution: (Fighters/Torps/DBs) Stock - Flight Control 1 - Flight Control 2 Ranger & Lexington: 1/1/1 - 0/1/3 - 1/1/2 The Ranger would go from worst ship in the game arguably to probably still the worst T7 CV but at least competitive. Lexington might actually be better than Shokaku with 1/1/2 but at least its competitive Essex & Midway: 1/1/2 - 1/1/3 - 2/1/2 Essex basically gets the Midway's 2-1-2. Those 2 changes solve 90% of the USN CV problems.
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Jun 21, 2017 14:42
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The only time you should go AS is when you're in a division with two people you can trust to abuse your air superiority. e: or if you really just hate the enemy CV and CV players in general and want to make them angry.
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Jun 21, 2017 15:08
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ranbo das posted:The only time you should go AS is when you're in a division with two people you can trust to abuse your air superiority. I've been tempted to get a Bogue just to do that. Maybe I can make CV players quit early.
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Jun 21, 2017 15:19
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Flints piss me off. Not as much as the Black does, but holy poo poo. I want to earn a stupid boat that I can abuse the gently caress outta. CitizenKain posted:I've been tempted to get a Bogue just to do that. Maybe I can make CV players quit early. You can. I did it a few times just in rando games. It is extremely unpleasant to fight against an AS carrier that does nothing but micro, strafe, and spot.
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Jun 21, 2017 15:22
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Man the Leningrad is fun. This replay is sped up, but it still feels like this zipping around https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtLvQGAWHlU
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Jun 21, 2017 15:59
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Flamu made his ranked predictions, and the only ships he explicitly ruled out were Perth, Independence, Gaede, Hatsuharu, and Gnevny; pretty even otherwise with everything divided into 'good' and 'slightly less good', but top tier he thinks will be Warspite, Cleveland, and Farragut or Shinonome.
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Jun 21, 2017 19:02
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CitizenKain posted:I've been tempted to get a Bogue just to do that. Maybe I can make CV players quit early. One of my proudest accomplishments in this game was playing as a AS Independence. The other team had a strike Independence who tried to alpha strike me, failed miserably, then torpedoed himself in a fit of rage before flaming me for the rest of the game.
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Jun 21, 2017 19:07
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Flamu had his Ranked guide up. BB section is ad i expected except he values Fuso highly which I am skeptical of
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Jun 21, 2017 21:01
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Fuso feels like the best choice in the hands of a good player who knows how to aim, has good SA, angles well, etc. and the Bayern for players who need the extra survivability without having to try too hard (at the expense of gun handling). I'm going to use Fuso, Buddy, and my Shinonome. Might use the Molotov a bit early on if there are a lot of cruisers since I do really well in it.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:17
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How in the world is the Graf Spee viable for ranked?
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Jun 21, 2017 21:25
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Cippalippus posted:How in the world is the Graf Spee viable for ranked? He said it'd be ok to use in ranks 23-11 firing HE and using its armour, but not have enough dpm to be worth taking ahead of other options in 10-1. His best cruisers were Cleveland, Budyonny, Leander, Degrasse, and La Gallisonniere. It was basically all tier 6 ships are viable, but some are more viable than others (except for the 5 useless ones) Warspite, Arizona, Fuso, Mutsu || New Mexico, Bayern, Dunkerque Cleveland, Budyonny, Leander, Degrasse, La Gallisonniere || Duca, Nurnberg, Molotov, Graf Spee, Makarov, Aoba || Shinonome, Gallant, Fubuki, Farragut, Anshan || Ryujo || He's basing this on his prediction that this season will be even more smoke camp heavy than the last season because of no radar, so values attributes accordingly NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 21:33
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I just had a match come down to a BB on 900HP vs a DD fighting in the cap circle and for some reason both decided to use AP at long range 
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Jun 21, 2017 22:18
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kaesarsosei posted:AS vs Strike. It shouldn't even be an issue. Complete pig-headedness from Wargaming. The easy and balanced solution: 1/x/y isn't viable above T6, at all. Period. 10 IJN fighters beat 7 US ones even before the strafe escape mechanics, but now it's just dumb. IJN balanced shits incredibly hard on all the US single fighter loadouts. I almost never see the 1-fighter Essex (1/1/3) these days because of this, it's all stock (2/1/1) or AS. The Essex is also the first US CV above the Bogue (well, except the Saipan) for which AS is a legitimately good choice. All loadouts on the Ranger and Lexington are really bad, and while AS is arguably the least bad, a competent Hiryu/Shokaku won't have too much trouble working around it. 3/0/2 Essex though is a real nuisance. If you really want to get owned in a US CV though, try taking the AS Independence (2/0/1) out against an AS Ryujo (3/1/1). Thankfully nobody plays AS Ryujo in randoms, but it's probably gonna become the meta in this ranked season simply because it shuts down everything else incredibly hard while still having access to two types of DoT. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:36
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Well, this was a great first game of the night. Pretty sure it's also the first time I've cracked 3k base experience, though I at least know I've had some high 2k games in the past.   Plane kills are so high because the enemy Lex targeted me the entire game, and I got no help from the friendly Shokaku. The cyclone that appeared was also immensely helpful, especially considering I ended up on the side of the map the enemy main push came down (at the very least both the Bismarck and North Carolina, along with the Kutuzov, two T7 cruisers and a Fubuki. Also the Lexington shadowing them) with only two T7 cruisers and a Farragut for support. The early game cap support very quickly became a retreat while mitigating damage(from both shells and air attacks), and a combination of the cyclone coming up along with their battleships actually turning towards the next cap instead of pursuing someone into the middle of nowhere. I'm not entirely sure whether to thank the cyclone for the CV kill though, as his last real strike came in during it and he should have figured out where I was headed afterwards even if he couldn't see me, instead of blithely continuing sailing along the path he was (killed him in the A cap).
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Jun 21, 2017 23:27
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Dalael posted:This should not be understated. I play AS all the time with US carriers, and i stopped counting the amount of time I'm spotting a DD launch his torps, follow tge torps the whole time to make sure they remain spotted only to see a BB sail straight into them 8 or 9 km later. I thought once torps were spotted they remained spotted? I try to do the same though, but people will still sail straight into torps...
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Jun 22, 2017 01:44
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Evil_Greven posted:I thought once torps were spotted they remained spotted? I am notorious bad. I find it very hard to judge speed and distance of torps sometimes blunder right into him
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Jun 22, 2017 02:02
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Just... WHY do some people play CVs? For reference, this was a Saipan/Independence mirror match, except I was running 2/2/0 with my Saipan, and the enemy one was running 3/0/1. As shown, I had 57 plane kills, of which 41 were off of him. He got 17. With an AS Saipan. My actual torpedo game was relatively poor due to having to dodge the fighter squadrons, but I still turned in ~47k damage too. It's not even like he just bought it or was unfamiliar with CVs either (probably), because he had Air Supremacy and thus a 10+ point captain. He just constantly kept all his fighter squadrons clumped up and normally engaging the same target. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 02:19
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Lord Koth posted:Just... WHY do some people play CVs? He may have had a US captain that had 10+ points that he paid doubloons to redistribute the points. Maybe a 19 point BB captain or something and he spent the pile of cash to rebuild it into a carrier captain, and then threw it on the Saipan, you don't need to spend time retraining for Saipan because its a premium.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:42
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Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that tier-for-tier the Independence is one of the worst if not the worst ship in the game. Like christ it's so bad.TheFluff posted:1/x/y isn't viable above T6, at all. Period. 10 IJN fighters beat 7 US ones even before the strafe escape mechanics, but now it's just dumb. IJN balanced shits incredibly hard on all the US single fighter loadouts. I almost never see the 1-fighter Essex (1/1/3) these days because of this, it's all stock (2/1/1) or AS. The Essex is also the first US CV above the Bogue (well, except the Saipan) for which AS is a legitimately good choice. All loadouts on the Ranger and Lexington are really bad, and while AS is arguably the least bad, a competent Hiryu/Shokaku won't have too much trouble working around it. 3/0/2 Essex though is a real nuisance.  Like being able to strafe out of a lock doesn't fundamentally change how you play against a 1/1/3 Essex as a Taiho, but for the Essex it means he actually has the option to do something other that being resigned to losing planes once you get locked. You're still playing from behind but it's actually much better for 1 fighter loadouts than before.It's really funny how after buffing USN fighters a bunch because their "gimmick" is supposed to be AS it's still pretty much across the board worse than their IJN AS counterparts lol Lord Koth posted:Just... WHY do some people play CVs?
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Jun 22, 2017 03:08
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The Independence fails to beat the Ryuujo in any category. Its a really, really bad CV. But at T6 you're only just seeing ships with actually potent AA, and people are still kind of dumb when it comes to CVs (and you don't have premiums that people will grind in to worry about). So you can still win. Just don't expect the Indy to actually be useful in Ranked this season, however. Strike Ryuujos will not be shut down by you, even as AS, and AS Ryuujo not only is better in the AS role, it STILL does more damage than you do.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:17
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I mean I'm kinda discounting player skill in this equation because any ship can be good when played against potatoes, but I just can't really think of any other ship that fails as hard as the Independence does when compared to its peers and ships it can encounter. The worst part of it is I can't really think of a good way to buff it; no amount of loadout changes is going to address its issue of not having a big enough hangar so even if you gave it a loadout that's better than the Ryujo you're still not going to have the planes to do anything with it. I guess WG could bite the bullet and just arbitrarily increase its hangar to an ahistorical size. Or like, maybe give it T7 bombers to stretch its paltry 37 plane hangar a bit longer? I dunno just spitballing here.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:27
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I think the hardest part of playing a battleship ( besides bullshit bracketing at long range ) is knowing when to commit. I have an easier time playing aggressive in tiers 3-6, but I haven't gotten the feel for 7+. I'm always too aggressive, or not aggressive enough.Lord Koth posted:It's not even like he just bought it or was unfamiliar with CVs either (probably), because he had Air Supremacy and thus a 10+ point captain. He just constantly kept all his fighter squadrons clumped up and normally engaging the same target. Sounds exactly like that one newbie Saipan I was bitching about two nights ago. Most people are bad at CVs, though. I'd probably be bad at them if I didn't piss away so much time playing them in Navy Field. Insert name here posted:I mean I'm kinda discounting player skill in this equation because any ship can be good when played against potatoes, but I just can't really think of any other ship that fails as hard as the Independence does when compared to its peers and ships it can encounter. The worst part of it is I can't really think of a good way to buff it; no amount of loadout changes is going to address its issue of not having a big enough hangar so even if you gave it a loadout that's better than the Ryujo you're still not going to have the planes to do anything with it. I guess WG could bite the bullet and just arbitrarily increase its hangar to an ahistorical size. Or like, maybe give it T7 bombers to stretch its paltry 37 plane hangar a bit longer? I dunno just spitballing here. 1) Give it whatever number of planes it needs to be balanced. 2) Try higher tier planes. Maybe try giving it better fighters so it's Saipan Lite. 3) Replace it with something else. The US built a shitzillion carriers, I'm sure they can find something. 4) Same tier planes, higher tier bombs and torpedoes. 5) Give it American flag camo so at least you can look real good while you suck and do nothing NerdyMcNerdNerd fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 04:47
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Nah, I looked up their stats later. They've got over 40 games in Saipan, and a decent number of games in other CVs as well. They're just bad with them.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:56
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I think the hardest part of playing a battleship ( besides bullshit bracketing at long range ) is knowing when to commit. I have an easier time playing aggressive in tiers 3-6, but I haven't gotten the feel for 7+. I'm always too aggressive, or not aggressive enough. The higher the tier, the less aggressive you are allowed to be. Sad but true.
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Jun 22, 2017 05:15
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MikeC posted:The higher the tier, the less aggressive you are allowed to be. Sad but true. Pretty much, yeah.
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Jun 22, 2017 05:55
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gently caress It. I'm going to get my Großer Kurfürst, sit my fat rear end inside a point and spam secondaries and main artillery at low health with Adrenaline Rush. That's my long term plan.
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Jun 22, 2017 07:54
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TheFluff posted:1/x/y isn't viable above T6, at all. Period. 10 IJN fighters beat 7 US ones even before the strafe escape mechanics, but now it's just dumb. IJN balanced shits incredibly hard on all the US single fighter loadouts. I almost never see the 1-fighter Essex (1/1/3) these days because of this, it's all stock (2/1/1) or AS. The Essex is also the first US CV above the Bogue (well, except the Saipan) for which AS is a legitimately good choice. All loadouts on the Ranger and Lexington are really bad, and while AS is arguably the least bad, a competent Hiryu/Shokaku won't have too much trouble working around it. 3/0/2 Essex though is a real nuisance. 1/1/1 Independence is actually highly underrated. On paper it seems far worse than Ryujo (and yes Ryujo is slightly better) but I had massive success with it when I played it about a year ago and nothing has changed between it and Ryujo since then. I would imagine in ranked its awful since a good Ryujo player in high tier ranked will use 3/1/1 and there is no Independence loadout that can do anything against that. But in Randoms, EVERY Ryujo player should be running 1/2/2 because damage gets XP in Randoms. 1/1/1 Indy has air superiority over 1/2/2 Ryujo and you still have 2 DOTs so its very workable. 1/1/3 Essex I think is still the way to go and more importantly allows a human being to enjoy the game. Yes the 3/0/2 Essex is incredibly frustrating but if someone wants to take 250 games to reach the Midway with low XP gains then fair enough. Taiho is better than 1/1/3 Essex but its not as big a gap as made out. You have to remember, when you queue into a game like me with a fully upgraded 1/1/3 Essex with a 17 pt commander I have the following opposition possibilities: A fully upgraded 2/3/2 Taiho with a good player - this happens less than 10% of matches and yes is a problem for an Essex. It is still not impossible to do 50k+ dmg, sink 1-2, spot DDs, shoot down 20+ planes and finish mid-table though in worst case A Taiho or Essex with any type of player but with a captain retraining and/or not upgraded - Essex favoured. At least a third of games are like this An Essex or Taiho with a terrible player. I would never have thought it before starting into T9 CVs but there are tons of people out there who still don't know how to strafe, ignore AA cover, blindly set fighters to follow bombers, never try to spot DDs, don't pay attention. Far more bad players than unicums. Another third of games roughly. A fully upgraded 1/1/3 Essex with a good player - these quickly degenerate into damage farm races and are enjoyable for both parties. 25-30% of games A 3/0/2 Essex - only ever seen it once. A 3/2/2 Taiho - only seen it once and still won the game
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Jun 22, 2017 10:39
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I know this is an extraordinarily unhelpful question, but how do you get really good at this game? I've managed to make my way to middling/mediocre performance by trying to read advice given in this thread and watching videos by Flamu etc., but I see some of the damage goons (and others) pull off regularly and I wonder how they manage it. For reference's sake cruisers are the main class I play by far; I don't really have the hang of BBs (I've got the never-ending tide of ARP Kongos, Ishizuchi, and USS Texas, but that's it) or DDs (Anshan) yet.
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Jun 22, 2017 13:32
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I think for cruisers the key is staying alive because cruisers get better as matches go on. You have enough RoF that individual salvos are not as important so being an absolute zen-master of aiming is of less importance. eg in a BB you might only get one decent chance on that broadside enemy, or end up out of position and unable to do damage. Cruisers have more salvos and more speed to get to where they need to be, at the price of getting insta-deleted if you mess up. In terms of staying alive some general tips: Get Priority Target. If more than 1 ship is targetting you try to disengage Be aware of where enemy BBs are and where their guns are aiming before trying to turn. You can use this both ways - if I know a BB is aiming at me and waiting for a turn, I will bait him by starting a turn then reversing it as soon as he shoots Use concealment to get undetected when under pressure or needing to turn. Doing this if nothing else you can get a free salvo on a lone BB by waiting until he fires, then shooting him. You can drop back into undetected again before his next salvo is ready, maybe even wasting his time turning turrets Map awareness - try to look at the minimap between every salvo If you have floaty shells (Atlanta, Cleveland, Des Moines, Minotaur, Neptune) you can try to use islands as cover and shoot over them Edit: One more I forgot and even though I will say it here, I find it hard to do it myself. Most players tend to fixate on one target once its available even at the expense of ignoring other better ones that appear. So try to get another friendly ship (esp a BB) to get fixated by enemies before revealing yourself. kaesarsosei fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 14:01
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:3) Replace it with something else. The US built a shitzillion carriers, I'm sure they can find something. kaesarsosei posted:1/1/1 Independence is actually highly underrated. On paper it seems far worse than Ryujo (and yes Ryujo is slightly better) but I had massive success with it when I played it about a year ago and nothing has changed between it and Ryujo since then. I would imagine in ranked its awful since a good Ryujo player in high tier ranked will use 3/1/1 and there is no Independence loadout that can do anything against that. But in Randoms, EVERY Ryujo player should be running 1/2/2 because damage gets XP in Randoms. 1/1/1 Indy has air superiority over 1/2/2 Ryujo and you still have 2 DOTs so its very workable.
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Jun 22, 2017 14:24
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I'd really like a full line of British Battleships, starting with the Dreadnought.
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Jun 22, 2017 14:29
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