|
I'm gonna guess and say there's two battlers.
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 09:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 12:59 |
|
|
Tired Moritz posted:I'm gonna guess and say there's two battlers. We know for a fact that there are two battlers. My name is Ushiromiya Battler Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumi The fact that the first 2 are true and the third is not means that there must be. I don't think it solves the closed room, though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 09:45
|
|
|
Okay, Battler has two bodies. Two people who are named Battler. Like Witch!Beatrice, and Baby!Beatrice.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 10:10
|
|
|
Breaking a nearly ten-year lurker streak on these forums to thank ProfessorProf and those following for these threads. I got into Umineko at about the time only EP3 was released in English, and obsessively followed it until the end, so this has brought a lot of good memories back for me. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 13:40
|
|
|
Qrr posted:We know for a fact that there are two battlers. Someone can be your mother and not be who birthed you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 13:44
|
|
|
 BGM: Patchwork Chimera  "Ooh... I see. You're saying you'll make it so that Erika inherits all of this game board's territory." "That's right. Look at Battler's finger. He's wearing the ring of the One-winged Eagle, symbol of the territory lord. If that becomes yours, you'll become the official lord of this territory. I don't mean you'll be under my charge. In name and reality, this territory will be yours." "So I need to take that ring off Battler's finger...?" "...*giggle* Don't be stupid. There's only one ceremony where a woman gets a ring from a man's finger, right?"  "T... take Battler... as my...?!" "Yeah, that's right. If the territory lord is never to wake again, he'll need a partner to serve by his side and in his place. In other words, you will control this territory." "So, we'll hold a wedding and exchange the rings. Battler's territory lord ring will become yours..." "In exchange, you will put a ring of subordination on Battler's finger. You will control and humiliate him forever... and create as many tales however you like using this territory and game board." "Territory lord, Furudo Erika. Any tale you wish will come true. The territory lord is a god. Congratulations, you've become the god of this small but wonderful world." "...Ha... hahahahaha... hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Is that... true... my... master...?!! Will I... become this world's... god...?" "That is the final reward I will give to you. Take Battler's ring and create your own world. When that happens, you won't be my piece anymore. You'll be your own witch, and a splendid one at that. Congratulations, Lady Erika. And, one day, you must welcome me when I come to visit, just like Beato once did." "Y, yes, my master...!! There could be no greater honor...! And I'm starting to like this marriage to Battler thing! *giggle*, if you think about it, there could be no greater disgrace to this game! After all, that Beatrice has apparently grown a desire to serve Battler and be liked by him. In the world that witch created, I will marry, defile, and humiliate Battler!! *giggle*giggle*, *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*!! Oh yes, I understand. I sooo understand how painful it feels to have the one you love stolen away from you!! And now, I'm finally the one dealing out the pain...!! Truly, there could be no greater honor!!" "I'm glad you like it. I knew it was the one present you'd like most in the world." "Thank you so much, thank you so much!! My... masteeeeeeeeeeeeer...!!!"Erika leapt down from the balcony and walked briskly towards Battler. Then, she peered down at the reward she had been given...  "...Now isn't that a wonderful finale. You'll have a wedding, right?" "Of course. A magnificent one. The perfect way to end Beato's game." "Of course, you'll send Beato an invitation too, right?" "Let's hope she actually comes." ""*giggle*giggle*, ehheheheheheheheheheheheheh!!"" "...Alright, things are going to get busy. We have to prepare for the ceremony, make programs, send invitations..." "Don't forget the wedding dress and a cake!! And you need to get things ready for the reception!"The two witches disappeared, cackling. Only the two who were to be wed remained in the cathedral.   "...drat... it..."Battler's consciousness wasn't completely gone. It was very distant... but he was slightly tethered to reality. And that... was what made it cruel. It was as cruel as though the spider called Erika had wrapped Battler up... and was eating him while he was still conscious. No, she might have been like certain kinds of wasp. It was the cruelty of paralyzing her prey alive so that she could save him for later and eat him. In other words, her cruelty was similar to that of a predator...  "You can't get out of this closed room. After all, you used all that red truth to show that it was a closed room. So don't worry, and just let yourself be trapped in there forever. Because as you do, I'll be giving your body some good, long humiliation. Let's have a mirror in our bedroom. That way, you can see just how you're being humiliated with your own eyes. *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!!" "And then, let's have a bird cage hanging from the ceiling. We can stick your beloved witch Beatrice in there. What do you think...? Wonderful, isn't it...? Eheheheheheheheheeheheheheheheheh!! Yeah, I understand. This is how sweet it is to be standing on the other side... Aha, ahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha..."As he listened to this mad laugh, Battler couldn't even bring a distressed expression to his face. His heart was still trapped in the closed room he had created... His body and soul... would soon be trapped within a new closed room of Erika's. A closed room... called marriage.  BGM: Waltz Op. 34  "I sure did, Zepar...! Lord BATTLER and Lady Erika are having a wedding!"They had said it with so much of their usual antics that Beato had to ask them to repeat it again.  "Wh... what... is happening...?" "As you know, the territory lord of this place has had his heart sealed away and cannot speak." "It seems the beautiful Lady Erika is going to become his wife and support him in his work!"The two demons explained the situation in a very simple yet dramatic way. I know what's going on. They're planning to take advantage of the fact that Battler's heart is sealed away... and use marriage to lock up his body as well, so that they can steal everything from him... At this rate, Battler's position as Game Master and his territory lord's ring will be stolen away...   "It's no use to just steal his body back! After all, the great Lady Bernkastel has already signed the marriage certificate as a witness!" "With a great witch of the senate serving as a witness, no one can dispel the union except for those who are a part of it...!" "...So, as I thought... unless I can rescue Battler-san's heart from that closed room, there's no way we can save him..." "Then find a way to rescue him from that closed room!" "You're going to steal away the bridegroom?! Ah!! How wonderful!!" "...If you can do that, it would make for a tale beautiful enough for the opera. However, this closed room sealing Battler is quite difficult..." "The only way out is the door. And if the chain is unset, his escape will not be accepted..." "And on top of that, the chain can't be set from the outside!" "And now there's no one left to switch places with him!" "...No matter how you think about it, we're stuck!" "If we give up... we won't be able to save him. The only thing we can do to save him now is to keep at it and keep thinking."Though Beato looked as though she was about to burst into tears, she clenched her fists tightly. She was so frustrated with her inability to think up any brilliant plan... that her heart felt as though it would burst...  "...Zepar and Furfur, you two are known as being among the most powerful of demons. They say your magic can make the impossible possible. Couldn't you use your power and knowledge to work out a plan for crushing this impossible closed room...?!" "Yes, love can accomplish any impossible thing!" "If you can't accomplish something, it means you lack enough love!" "...Hearing that... hurts..." "But we are moved by the strength of will that prevents you from giving up!" "Because you have that, we're sure you can bring about a miracle!" "...Can't you at least give us a hint about that miracle?! We have known each other for no short span of time. Can't you at least give my little sister a hint as a parting gift?" ""We are always giving out hints.""   "...And I'm telling you to show us because we can't see them. These two are always like this. It staves off boredom, but they can become very irritating at times like this."Zepar and Furfur certainly were demons who possessed a great power. The power of love that they bestowed had created several miracles in the past... miracles so great that they left a mark on human history. However, those miracles were never given easily. They would give trials, tell riddles, and sometimes help the truth be realized... so that those who desired power could create that power themselves. No matter how pitiful the eyes that looked up at them, the two demons would never lend their power out of pity. As it is with God, it is with demons. They help those who help themselves. "I understand. I'll think about it myself... I will... certainly..." "See, demons?! Here's a pure-hearted girl...! As the demons of love, don't your hearts hurt even a little?! Let's have a hint...! Or could you at least give us a hint to a hint?"Zepar and Furfur looked at each other. Of course, there was no pity on their faces. However, it could be seen that, though they did find the problem amusing, they were considering what they should do next. "What'll we do, Furfur?!" "Can we just give a hint to a hint?!" "Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, so let's have it!" ""Oookay! Here's a present from Zepar and Furfur! A hint to a hint of love!!"" "P, please...!!" "You can't see the answer..." "Because you don't have enough love!" "I... I told you, not a hint like that!" "And if you don't have enough love...!!" "Why don't you watch all the lovers?!" "Yes, and fortunately, we have two groups of lovers right here with us!" "Why don't we take a look at their fight for love?!" ""You should watch over and observe our trial!!"" "I tooooold you!! Not a hint like that!"Beato the elder yelled at them, asking for a more tangible hint. However, Zepar and Furfur just giggled and ran about like rats. However, Beato took their hint to a hint seriously.  BGM: None 'Tear apart the two who are close.' In other words, defeat one of the members on the opposing team. They were allowed to use any method they wanted. It could be a duel, or it could be rock, paper, scissors. ...The four of them had alternated between speaking together, then splitting up and discussing things amongst their teams, and had, apparently, finally reached a decision.  "...Zepar, Furfur. Do you have a second?" "Oh, they've finally called out to us!!" "So, George! Have you decided the format for the duel?!"No matter how much the two demons jeered at the four of them, their serious expressions did not waver...  "...Yes. We've decided to have it... as a single duel."  BGM: ALIVE "That's surprising. For a one on one duel, we would have thought-" "That George and Jessica would've fought." "...These guys really wanted it to be them, and they wouldn't listen." "As a man, I can't stand being unable to do anything but watch. However, Shannon's resolve will not waver. So we have no choice but to respect their decision and believe in them..." "...Kanon-kun..." "Thank you so much... for believing in me. I've always thought that... if we would one day have to fight each other directly, this was the way it should be done." "And we've realized that... that day is today. Of course, we might have been able to avoid this day." "However, now this day has come. So, we will not... run away." "...That's right. I'll stay right here." "Me too. I believe in Shannon. So, I won't say anything more. And, even if Shannon is the one fighting in the duel, our power is one. So, we'll be fighting together." "...Yes, that's right. I'm just speaking for the pair of us." "If the lovers have decided-" "Even we demons will not butt in." "So, how would you like to settle this duel?" "You don't mean... that you want to have a real 'duel', do you?"At once, both Shannon and Kanon nodded. "...And the method?" "That doesn't matter, as long as it is a fight to the death." "If possible, we would like it to be peaceful and painless. And we would like to avoid wounding each other unnecessarily before one of us dies." "...Zepar. We should be the ones to oversee this noble duel." "True. We understand, you two. We will propose a noble duel, one that will honor your noble spirits!"When Zepar clapped loudly, a case with an old design appeared in the air and landed between Shannon and Kanon. Furfur nodded at them, urging them to open it. Kanon crouched down and opened the case. There were some antiques inside. They would have looked splendid hanging on the wall at some classy coffee shop. However, they were not mere decorations now.  "...Th, these are..." "I see. Just perfect for a duel..." Yes, this was a case of dueling pistols... which only those who wished for a fight to the death were allowed to open. "They have one bullet each. As you requested, we have imbued them with magic." "They have magical bullets, which will bring certain and painless death no matter where on your body they hit you." "...Thank you very much. You are... most merciful." "And what if we both miss?" "Normally, that would be a draw. However, such a thing is not allowed in our trial." "If you both miss, you will come back, and we will give you new bullets. This will repeat until one of you is dead." "...I have no objections." "Me neither. I'm glad. This means we can finally-" "Ushiromiya George, I recognize you as Shannon's... no, Sayo's witness." "...Understood." "Ushiromiya Jessica, I recognize you as Kanon's... no, Yoshiya's witness." "S, sure...!" ""We are responsible for this duel! It is our responsibility to see that this duel reaches a decision no matter what!!""When Zepar and Furfur cried these words out, the whole area was blanketed in a gold-colored light, and when it cleared, it had become the rose garden where golden roses bloomed...   "...Because it's being overseen by demons...?" "No. A duel over love is usually a fight between two people both in love with the same single person. However, here we have a pair of lovers fighting another pair of lovers. This is quite odd." "I'm sure... that's because they want the miracle of magic. It seems we cannot be successful in love without that miracle..." "...Do you know the minimum number of people needed to create a universe?" "...Huh? N, no, I don't..."Shannon and Kanon each took a pistol out of the case, returned to their respective witnesses, and checked the weapons over. Then, when they both decided that there were no problems with those, they checked once more to make sure that the other was prepared to duel, and nodded. "If there are no problems, let the duelists stand back to back, then walk the decided number of steps away from each other." "Then, the duel will begin on our signal. Zepar, how many steps should they walk?" "...Good question. Well, maybe we should choose a number that is closely bound to this duel." "A number closely bound...? What number is that?" "It's a number we know of well. It is that number which has been repeated over and over again since the time this tale began...!!" ""That number is '19'!"" "...That's an interesting number..." "...I like it. It's a good number to settle everything with." Whenever the illusion of a 19th person was seen on this island, on which only 18 people were supposed to be, this number was used to refer to the witch. This was the number of years needed to create this tale. This was the number of years it took to reach this unavoidable day.  "They'll stand across from each other, then walk 19 steps... and shoot." "...That's pretty far. At that distance, the first one to shoot won't necessarily be the winner." "...If one of us shoots first and misses, that will probably be the end for them." "And if it hits, this easy game can be won without even getting a scratch..." Shannon and Kanon slowly walked towards each other, facing each other. Once they turned away, the next time they would see the other's face would be the time that they killed them. So, this was the last time they would face each other. "Thanks for everything. Having a little brother like you made things fun." "...Thank you for letting me be me. Thank you for showing me the color in the world of gray." "Why... were we born, I wonder..." "It would have been better if we had died right after being born." "...That is our Father's sin, isn't it..." "Yeah. So he can just die. Let them all die." "Yeah. Everyone will die. It'll happen very soon. And right after, everyone will revive, and we'll be able to see them again. We won't be birds in a cage anymore." "...We will finally leave our cage... and fly off to our separate worlds." "I should have had this duel with you... long ago." "...Surely, today is the day." "Yeah. It's today." "October 5th, 1986. The fated day." "The day that one of us will die." "...Or maybe we'll both shoot at the same time, and both die." "Oh, that might happen too. In fact, that's not so unlikely at all." "Right. Even if that happens, our loves will surely be made complete." "...Do we really... need to duel?" "We do. You said it yourself. We should have done this much sooner." "Right. Because... to me, you are-" "To me, you are-" For the first time, the intent to kill flashed through the eyes of both. Why...? For what reason...? Why must this day come for this pair, connected by a bond different from love as though they were real siblings...? It's a great mystery. And, also a great mystery is the question of how this can be the key... towards unlocking Battler-san's closed room. ...If I watch over this duel instead of running away, will I find the key towards solving that closed room...? I will, right? Zepar-san, Furfur-san...!
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 13:49
|
|
|
Zack Ater posted:Someone can be your mother and not be who birthed you. that is true, but the fact Battler can't confirm he's Asumu's biological child despite growing up believing otherwise, and Rudolf telling Battler there's something he needed to know before he got killed in a previous game confirms that it's no simple matter of adoption, but some deliberate deception going on behind the scenes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 13:50
|
|
|
Huh. Nearly explicit confirmation that Battler is the cliff baby. This certainly isn't relevant in any way. Also, this send to be implying that if Shannon and Kanon are two separate people, then they have the same father. Also interesting.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 14:09
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:
I can't believe Jessica and George are secretly the same person.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 14:52
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:
(Left the tune in, 'cause it's bangin'.) Oh my GOOOOODDD  He's all but underlining it now, circling it until the pen rips the paper: Shannon and Kanon are one person-the one who fell off the cliff 19 year ago- and neither can live while the other survives! And this duel not only determines which love shall be pursued, but determines which one will save Battler in the room- and I'll bet you anything you like that the one to do it will be Kanon, because his name is not in red as the occupant of that adjacent room! All the other people were accounted for, or else would have no impetus to help Battler here- I am incompetent and you all know that, but Heavens to Betsy, I don't see any other way this plays out. Shannon is Kannon is Beatrice... Beatrice is Sayo Yoshiya. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 14:57
|
|
|
Robindaybird posted:that is true, but the fact Battler can't confirm he's Asumu's biological child despite growing up believing otherwise, and Rudolf telling Battler there's something he needed to know before he got killed in a previous game confirms that it's no simple matter of adoption, but some deliberate deception going on behind the scenes. I still favor the idea that Battler is Kyrie's biological child. That makes her "stillbirth" significant as well, and then he's still Rudolf's kid while satisfying all the red text and not being two people.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 14:59
|
|
|
I was only joking about the pistols...
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:04
|
|
|
EagerSleeper posted:I was only joking about the pistols...
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:18
|
|
|
Oh my god it hurts 
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:34
|
|
|
quote:"...That is our Father's sin, isn't it..." But Kinzo is already dead, and they both know this. Sooooo.... gently caress I'mma just sit back and watch this one play out. See you when the dust settles. Tired Moritz posted:Okay, Battler has two bodies. Two people who are named Battler. Like Witch!Beatrice, and Baby!Beatrice. Even if there are two people named Ushiromiya Battler still alive and well, Ushiromiya Battler does not exist anywhere in this room means neither of them can be in there. ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jun 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:40
|
|
|
The only way I could see that even mattering is if the closed rooms are opened, and one is discovered to be missing, creating a theoretical 'closed room escape'. But even if that occurs, they're still stuck inside the closed rooms. Also, the Kyrie-stillbirth-baby is Battler theory is what I'm personally going with.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 15:56
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:I still favor the idea that Battler is Kyrie's biological child. That makes her "stillbirth" significant as well, and then he's still Rudolf's kid while satisfying all the red text and not being two people. I don't think this theory explains what was the most interesting part of that whole reveal to me, Beato's line about how the real Battler would remember, why would he remember if the real Battler was a stillborn who she never met? I personally see that another way, the real Battler would remember therefore you're not real because you don't, nothing else, no baby swaps, just that he doesn't remember. Still same body, he's just repressed something, something big enough that not remembering makes him a different person, or at least a different person in the eyes of the person who does remember. So he is Battler Ushiromiya, but he wasn't born from his mother, he was born from trauma on a young mind. In the same way that Shannon can die while Sayo remains alive. A further , even wackier, theory to help him escape, as even with two Battlers sharing a body they're still both Battler; Battler is also Beatrice. Or a Beatrice rather, just as Natsuihi had hers born from her desire to belong to the family, and Shannon and Kanon saw different ones based on how they feel about love, and the murderer (probably Sayo) has her own too, or maybe shares one with Shannon or Kanon, or Shkannon, whichever that bit's not important. Battler's Beatrice comes from his subconscious desire to remember, as the murders go on the part of him that knows they could stop it if the remember creates a Beatrice, based on the guise the murderer is using, to try and force him to remember, that's why she died when he did, her use was over, this new Beatrice is one he's deliberately creating as he misses having her. Like I said, wacky, probably has a million issues with it, and is mainly just me throwing poo poo out there, but the first bit about there being two Battlers I do like. Graylien fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jun 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 16:23
|
|
|
This episode sure seems to push S=K, and my trust in the author just took a huge drop. This is starting to feel like Lost, where the authors threw out mystery after mystery, until the audience realized they didn't have any coherent way of wrapping things up. Because S=K makes a lot of what we've seen nonsense. Here, from the red archive, is the red from Ep 3's first twilight murders (the chain of six locked rooms): "...Hmph. The same as last time. There are five, one for each servant." (Referring to the amount of master keys in this game.) "In other words, the six closed rooms form one massive closed room, and all of the master keys as well as the individual room keys are shut up inside it...! Furthermore, all of the doors and windows on the six rooms are normal. No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock. *cackle*cackle* What do you think? It's beautiful, isn't iiiiiiiiiiiit??? Uhhyahhyahhyaaahh!" "Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa—these six are all dead!" "I'll answer. There is no one hiding in the six rooms!" I can see how you could count a person with two personalities as a double kill. But there's still only one body to be in a room and carry a master key so all the other numbers are off and the red is a lie. Maybe not a big lie, or a critical lie, but a lie. The diagram explaining the murder shows six rooms, so that's a lie too. This is without worrying about smaller problems, like how Natsuhi could ever tolerate anything but traditional gender and behavior (or non-traditional anything, really). So the author might very well say S=K. I'm kind of expecting it after this update. But it greatly drops my opinion of this story when viewed as a mystery.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:05
|
|
|
I think there are only be 5 master keys though, so Shannon and Kanon would be sharing one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:10
|
|
|
it was never a mystery. it's magic. Have you not been listening to our lord and savior, Beato?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:12
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:This episode sure seems to push S=K, and my trust in the author just took a huge drop. This is starting to feel like Lost, where the authors threw out mystery after mystery, until the audience realized they didn't have any coherent way of wrapping things up. Because S=K makes a lot of what we've seen nonsense. Here, from the red archive, is the red from Ep 3's first twilight murders (the chain of six locked rooms): Is this such an enormous stretch, though? Because there is a way that one body can register as two corpses, the way the game presents, without supernatural shenanigans. Recall the order that the corpses were found- Shannon found first and Kanon found last- and no guards were left in the room, so the party of discoverers moved as one, and none of them being designated detectives, all of them had to depend on Nanjo's word that the corpses were corpses. Thus a potential plan to perform these murders mundanely emerges: after Shannon is discovered with her key and the party leaves the room, Shannon gets up and leaves the mnansion while everyone else farts around with the Mansion doors, changes into Kanon and picks up the chapel key (or had it all along), books it to the chapel, locks that door and plays dead. Voila: "two" people dead, with one live body.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
Actually, you know what, I can admit when I was wrong, and I can take my lumps when they come. So here goes. Up until this point, I felt safe to dismiss the whole cliff baby business as a red herring, because it wasn't introduced until game 5, and therefore wasn't necessary to solve the mystery. (Per proclamations from witches in-thread.) It's clear that isn't the case. The only person we know who is 19 years old is cliff baby. Cliff baby is the true territory lord of this board. And I'm operating under the assumption that the true territory lord means Beatrice, the creator of the game. However, this tale still must have been solvable before mention of Natsushi's attempted double-murder, which means we must have been able to deduce the existence of cliff baby without knowing anything about the incident for which they are named. And the only mysterious 19 year old that we could have deduced from previous knowledge would be the child of the Beatrice Rosa met/killed. And if she is the mother, the only reasonable father is Kinzo. This is close to Red as far as I'm concerned. With that in mind, time to amend my Kanon theory moments before it gets potentially blown to bits by the next update.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:21
|
|
|
How old is Shannon supposed to be anyway? And how long had Kanon been working on the island?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:26
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:Is this such an enormous stretch, though? Because there is a way that one body can register as two corpses, the way the game presents, without supernatural shenanigans. Recall the order that the corpses were found- Shannon found first and Kanon found last- and no guards were left in the room, so the party of discoverers moved as one, and none of them being designated detectives, all of them had to depend on Nanjo's word that the corpses were corpses. Thus a potential plan to perform these murders mundanely emerges: after Shannon is discovered with her key and the party leaves the room, Shannon gets up and leaves the mnansion while everyone else farts around with the Mansion doors, changes into Kanon and picks up the chapel key (or had it all along), books it to the chapel, locks that door and plays dead. Voila: "two" people dead, with one live body. That's fine for fooling people, but red is supposed to be objectively true, not true for one person's perspective. Otherwise "witches are killing people with magic" is a red truth.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:32
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:This episode sure seems to push S=K, and my trust in the author just took a huge drop. This is starting to feel like Lost, where the authors threw out mystery after mystery, until the audience realized they didn't have any coherent way of wrapping things up. Because S=K makes a lot of what we've seen nonsense. Here, from the red archive, is the red from Ep 3's first twilight murders (the chain of six locked rooms): I'm still holding onto my trust here, especially given S=K wouldn't even solve the problem Battler's in. I'll be quite disappointed if S=K is actually the answer, and I'll be expecting a drat good explanation for everything if that turns out to be the case. Theoretically that could be resolved with some incredibly fast running (given how they went to every other room first), but it's not just that spot where problems would arise. I already brought up the master keys thing earlier, but that's been ignored afterwards. EagerSleeper posted:I think there are only be 5 master keys though, so Shannon and Kanon would be sharing one. The point, as I made earlier and had people disregard, is that then there would be four master keys. We've had it noted in red that each servant holds exactly one, so if there are five master keys and Shannon and Kanon each hold one, then they would be holding two master keys. BurningStone posted:That's fine for fooling people, but red is supposed to be objectively true, not true for one person's perspective. Otherwise "witches are killing people with magic" is a red truth. To be fair, we also do have to compare with the whole 'corpses' section during 5 that though red's objectively true, it can be sneaked around.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:33
|
|
|
If red is "objective truth" in the way you want it y'all are in trouble when you try to explain how viewing 6 different parallel universes, none of which are even confirmed to have actually happened, isn't magic. (or for that matter how a subjective concept like incompetence was measured and applied to Battler) Its still subject to context. If S=K is true then its clear the game treats them as separately in some cases, there no reason they can't count as "two servants" when they count as two deaths.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
Graylien posted:I don't think this theory explains what was the most interesting part of that whole reveal to me, Beato's line about how the real Battler would remember, why would he remember if the real Battler was a stillborn who she never met? I personally see that another way, the real Battler would remember therefore you're not real because you don't, nothing else, no baby swaps, just that he doesn't remember. Still same body, he's just repressed something, something big enough that not remembering makes him a different person, or at least a different person in the eyes of the person who does remember. So he is Battler Ushiromiya, but he wasn't born from his mother, he was born from trauma on a young mind. In the same way that Shannon can die while Sayo remains alive. I think this is kind of it, but not exactly. My theory on that line is that her conception of Battler is (or at least was) wrong. The "real" Battler Ushiromaya that she means is a person that never existed, because he's a fantasy she came up with about the actually real Battler. The stillborn baby was never named Battler, that's a name that has only ever belonged to the person we know. He forgot because she didn't mean to him what he meant to her.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 17:58
|
|
|
Tired Moritz posted:How old is Shannon supposed to be anyway? And how long had Kanon been working on the island? I think 16? And Kanon is said to have been employed for 2 years. OK, now that I've had some coffee, here are some general thoughts about this update. What strikes me the most about this duel is the futility of it: yes, if either one wins, the premise states that they will be able to become a real person, go off with their loved one, and have a chance at happiness. But what bothers me about it is that there is a real person there. Regardless of who wins out in the end, what will happen to Sayo? Is it really ok for her to accede her entire selfhood to a personality that she crafted in order to avoid dealing with her problems head-on? Is that central hurt going to go away once she decides which coping mechanism gets to reign supreme? Is there any way for her to win here? Here, I'm considering her to be a separate entity from the personas that she's created. Each of them—Beatrice, Shannon, Kanon, the Stakes, Virgilia, her ideal Battler (kinda), and so on—are like the shield that Shannon puts up around herself. Except Sayo's shields have, really, countless layers to them, all protecting the hurt person within. In a sense, we can also consider the games to each be layers of that shield as well. By progressing through them, Battler (and the reader) get closer and closer to the core of the "Game Master" and come to a better understanding of who she is. Remember that our iconic example of the monstrous feminine, Medusa, was a beautiful maiden turned into a beast literally impossible to behold after having survived a rape at the hands of Poseidon. In some sense, Medusa's lethality and contorted appearance could be interpreted as a manifestation of her rage, frustration, and despair. It's the hero's task to kill her—but it's obvious that Battler's approach is completely different from Perseus'. (Note: in some tellings, Perseus believes Medusa's punishment is just.) Medusa didn't get a happy ending. But maybe Sayo can, if she can escape the prison that she herself designed and walk into the sunlight wearing her true face, or at least something close to true. Then maybe she can tell me what that's like.  edit: This key thing isn't that hard to understand, is it? Shannon and Kanon are two servants. They each have a key in a pocket of their respective outfits. It's not like Sayo ever wears both outfits at once. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jun 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:04
|
|
|
Lisonfire posted:If red is "objective truth" in the way you want it y'all are in trouble when you try to explain how viewing 6 different parallel universes, none of which are even confirmed to have actually happened, isn't magic. (or for that matter how a subjective concept like incompetence was measured and applied to Battler) I agree they can count as two servants. However, we again run into this line: The only master keys are the ones held by the servants, one key each. The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant. Only one of which is held. So no servant holds two. This is something that could have theoretically been worked around with 'is given to each servant', but it specifically uses the wording 'held by' multiple times. Other interesting note I keep forgetting to mention: This update is perfect for showing how Lambda's 'bully rule' applies to Erika.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:06
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:I agree they can count as two servants. However, we again run into this line: The only master keys are the ones held by the servants, one key each. The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant. Only one of which is held. So no servant holds two. This is something that could have theoretically been worked around with 'is given to each servant', but it specifically uses the wording 'held by' multiple times. The original text uses 持つ motsu: have, hold, own. It's not as specific as the English.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:15
|
|
|
witchcore ricepunk posted:Medusa didn't get a happy ending. But maybe Sayo can, if she can escape the prison that she herself designed and walk into the sunlight wearing her true face, or at least something close to true. Then maybe she can tell me what that's like. ... do you need a hug, Ricepunk?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:17
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:I agree they can count as two servants. However, we again run into this line: The only master keys are the ones held by the servants, one key each. The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant. Only one of which is held. So no servant holds two. This is something that could have theoretically been worked around with 'is given to each servant', but it specifically uses the wording 'held by' multiple times. The person holding the keys is two servants and therefore holds two keys. They literally have two jobs and both jobs are servants. This follows the red just fine. also WCRP do you need a hug
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:18
|
|
|
mycelia posted:The original text uses 持つ motsu: have, hold, own. It's not as specific as the English. Hmm. I'm not quite sure if that changes anything, because that still implies that our hypothetical Shannon=Kanon can only have one key. Lisonfire posted:The person holding the keys is two servants and therefore holds two keys. They literally have two jobs and both jobs are servants. This follows the red just fine. You're missing where it says only one. If they hold two keys, then only one is held by each servant is no longer true, and therefore the red is lying. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jun 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
Because edits are easily missed:witchcore ricepunk posted:edit: This key thing isn't that hard to understand, is it? Shannon and Kanon are two servants. They each have a key in a pocket of their respective outfits. It's not like Sayo ever wears both outfits at once. Did you have a problem with this explanation?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:29
|
|
|
Neopie posted:... do you need a hug, Ricepunk? Lisonfire posted:also WCRP do you need a hug Hahaha I'm OK! Thanks though. It's rare that I get to talk about this kind of thing, so I'm grateful to this story. It's certainly helped me articulate stuff that I haven't considered worthy of putting words to til now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
Zack Ater posted:Someone can be your mother and not be who birthed you. True, but you are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son is also stated. So while adoption would work with the red texts I cited it would not work with that one. As for this update, yeah, S=K is being pushed hard. Who is 19 years old? Battler and other Battler are presumably the same age. I suppose we don't have Kanons age in red (or anyone else's, really).
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:38
|
|
|
witchcore ricepunk posted:Hahaha I'm OK! Thanks though. It's rare that I get to talk about this kind of thing, so I'm grateful to this story. It's certainly helped me articulate stuff that I haven't considered worthy of putting words to til now. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:40
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:I think this is kind of it, but not exactly. My theory on that line is that her conception of Battler is (or at least was) wrong. The "real" Battler Ushiromaya that she means is a person that never existed, because he's a fantasy she came up with about the actually real Battler. The stillborn baby was never named Battler, that's a name that has only ever belonged to the person we know. He forgot because she didn't mean to him what he meant to her. Hey I just want to say that I like this idea. It would really fit in to the whole 'seeing color in a world of gray' that Shannon was banking on in episode 2. witchcore ricepunk posted:Hahaha I'm OK! Thanks though. It's rare that I get to talk about this kind of thing, so I'm grateful to this story. It's certainly helped me articulate stuff that I haven't considered worthy of putting words to til now. I'm glad that this story is giving folks a chance to discuss ideas that need to be talked about. Underneath all the talk of magic and closed rooms, there's something painful and really going on in this narrative. These things are indeed real, no worries.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:42
|
|
|
I'm just exploding with mackerel. This is the aji wo kutta of my discontent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 12:59 |
|
|
witchcore ricepunk posted:I think 16? And Kanon is said to have been employed for 2 years. 3 years. Only a relevant distinction insofar as Kanon started working before the epitaph went up. And yes, Kanon claims to be 16, but then the text also says Shannon is the same age as Battler and Jessica, and implies that she's 16 via math, and none of these ages are ever stated it red.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 19:03
|
|