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Americans don't like being reminded about Vietnam because America lost.
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Jun 21, 2017 15:04
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Chimp_On_Stilts posted:Has anyone noted that John McCain's vote on AHCA is going to kill more Americans than the VietCong ever did?* Brony Car posted:Americans don't like being reminded about Vietnam because America lost. I've done this before, but since Americans don't like the war in Vietnam, how about an all-American comparison? Ted Bundy killed an estimated 27 people in his murderous career. Assuming all 293 Republicans in congress voted for the bill and the bill has an equivalent estimated body count of the House approved AHCA, they are looking at a body count of slightly less than 82 people per year. That would make each Republican congressperson about equal to 3 Ted Bundy's per year. Comparing the total body count of this bill to Vietnam is statistics; it's important, but, ultimately, people will gloss right over it. Comparing each individual congressperson likely to vote for it to one of the nation's most infamous serial killers makes the numbers more visceral and real.
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Jun 21, 2017 15:19
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There is no cute trick to convincing people who are okay with tens of thousands of people dying a year of preventable illnesses and injuries that actually it's a bad thing.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:02
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Sir Kodiak posted:There is no cute trick to convincing people who are okay with tens of thousands of people dying a year of preventable illnesses and injuries that actually it's a bad thing. But vaccines cause autism!
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Jun 21, 2017 16:12
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Sir Kodiak posted:There is no cute trick to convincing people who are okay with tens of thousands of people dying a year of preventable illnesses and injuries that actually it's a bad thing. Have you tried John Oliver videos?
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Jun 21, 2017 16:20
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PerniciousKnid posted:Have you tried John Oliver videos? Republicans from the Deep South love condescending speeches from a liberal with a foreign accent.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:22
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Brony Car posted:Republicans from the Deep South love condescending speeches from a liberal with a foreign accent. Yeah. A smarmy limey with a smug comedy style. That'll convert them to reason. I do enjoy watching John Oliver, but he's preaching to the converted, definitely.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:43
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Oh, they'll also read anyone that doesn't tell them what they want to hear as a condescending effete leftist.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:46
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I've had some luck grumbling about "Congress" cutting rural healthcare to make the coastal elites richer. It doesn't throw up any direct flags, appeals to the prevailing Red State cultural narrative and is functionally accurate. If they repeat that talking point to someone more ideologically aware they could find themselves being attacked as a liberal, which can really shake someone's political identity. They don't abandon the Republican Party overnight, as their hatred of Democrats is engrained, but it does give them a window to bail. It's how I ultimately swung left in the end back when the ACA was being debated.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:50
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Brony Car posted:Republicans from the Deep South love condescending speeches from a liberal with a foreign accent. I think you'll find there aren't any conservatives left, I have it on good authority John Oliver destroyed them.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:50
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Why bother trying to blunt the spite some people have against the poor and sick, when you can instead just fan the spite even more people have against the rich and disgusting? e: vimeo embeds don't work I guess. HealthyCA made a video about SB562.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:35
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I haven't had time to read the leak yet, what are the deets?
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Jun 22, 2017 03:19
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Discendo Vox posted:I haven't had time to read the leak yet, what are the deets? Keeps most of the private insurance reforms around while watering down the financial assistance (subsidies now based on the bronze tier level plan and not silver, reduced premium subsidies to people making < 350% of FPL rather than 400%). Also gutting medicaid over 7 years
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Jun 22, 2017 03:36
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Peven Stan posted:Keeps most of the private insurance reforms around while watering down the financial assistance (subsidies now based on the bronze tier level plan and not silver, reduced premium subsidies to people making < 350% of FPL rather than 400%). Also gutting medicaid over 7 years How does this get anyone's vote?
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Jun 22, 2017 03:41
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hobbesmaster posted:How does this get anyone's vote? Defunding Planned Parenthood is still in there
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Jun 22, 2017 03:43
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hobbesmaster posted:How does this get anyone's vote? Presumably the savings from reduced subsidies and gutting Medicaid are directed into tax cuts.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:49
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hobbesmaster posted:How does this get anyone's vote? gently caress you, liberal pussy! (That's literally the answer)
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Jun 22, 2017 03:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They are going to limit floor debate and amendments with that tactic, not keep the text of the bill secret.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:53
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If those changes are legit then the market will be nothing more than a 10% MAGI buy-in for preventative care & an out-of-pocket maximum. Cough up 10% of your yearly earnings and your expenses (outside of your monthly premium) will be capped at whatever the OOP may be at that time (right now for a bronze plan it hovers around $7k/person/year). That falls right in line with defunding Cost-Share Reductions. No outpatient co-pay only services. If people think coverage & co-pays are poo poo now, I imagine they'll be pretty pissed about that.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:12
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:gently caress you, liberal pussy! Its not enough for those people. And the so called moderates are in a lose/lose situation with this bill.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:24
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Highbrow Slick posted:If those changes are legit then the market will be nothing more than a 10% MAGI buy-in for preventative care & an out-of-pocket maximum. Cough up 10% of your yearly earnings and your expenses (outside of your monthly premium) will be capped at whatever the OOP may be at that time (right now for a bronze plan it hovers around $7k/person/year). That falls right in line with defunding Cost-Share Reductions. No outpatient co-pay only services. If people think coverage & co-pays are poo poo now, I imagine they'll be pretty pissed about that. Plus, it would cost the government even more because premiums will skyrocket without a mandate.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:44
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hobbesmaster posted:Its not enough for those people. And the so called moderates are in a lose/lose situation with this bill. "Ron Johnson is going to save Obamacare, thank Ron Johnson for Obamacare"
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Jun 22, 2017 04:55
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Elotana posted:Aren't they still subject to a Byrd bath that could be theoretically be drawn out for a while even if Mike Pence ends up overruling? Pence can override the parliamentarian but the Byrd Rule is actual law, different from e.g. the Hastert Rule which is just a matter of decorum. So it would be a huge mess. Preventing funding for abortions is very likely outside the scope of what's allowable in a reconciliation bill. The EHB changes as well, but it seems like they've walked those back. Peven Stan posted:Keeps most of the private insurance reforms around while watering down the financial assistance (subsidies now based on the bronze tier level plan and not silver, reduced premium subsidies to people making < 350% of FPL rather than 400%). Also gutting medicaid over 7 years If this is true (I didn't know there was a leak) then it's a big departure from the House scheme. So the Senate bill is basically ACA 2.0, now with less federal spending! Which seems like something Paul and Cruz would never vote for.
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Jun 22, 2017 05:26
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Defunding PP has already been ruled to pass the Byrd rule iirc but the real fight is going to be that I think the parliamentarian ruled that a rule banning the subsidy from being spent on plans that cover abortion doesn't pass muster.
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Jun 22, 2017 13:22
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The heath care bill has been released: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/senate-unveils-obamacare-repeal-bill In a word, it's atrocious: it makes severe cuts to the subsidies though it hides the ball on those (it does, however, close the hole caused by states that refused to expand medicaid), it lengthens the medicaid expansion at the cost of more severe cuts down the road, and it appears to have the language barring using subsidies on abortion coverage plans (it's not clear that will survive a Byrd challenge). There's some indication the votes aren't there yet: https://twitter.com/chucktodd/status/877913883926609920 Note that in the House, there were a few moderates who said they were "no", got a token concession, and switched to yes in what looked very much like a pre-planned PR stunt. Any moderate "no" voters should be taken with a similar grain of salt: it is reasonably likely that they will insist on a vote for some amount of opioid funding (much less than what they're cutting) and get it, as a way to make themselves look like they made it "better". Basically: https://twitter.com/ChrisMurphyCT/status/877917057689542656
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Jun 22, 2017 16:58
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It really is named the "Better Care Reconciliation Act of 2017" How is gutting medicare/aid Better? How is kicking off 20 million people off healthcare Better? How is letting states determine if pre-existing conditions should even be covered Better? How are higher costs in deductibles Better?
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Jun 22, 2017 17:05
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MrBigglesworth posted:It really is named the "Better Care Reconciliation Act of 2017" It's just mind games, like calling the least patriotic bill ever the "Patriot act". "They voted against
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Jun 22, 2017 17:07
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This sounds correct: https://twitter.com/samstein/status/877918849886068736 https://twitter.com/samstein/status/877919163192410112
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Jun 22, 2017 17:08
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Azhais posted:It's just mind games, like calling the least patriotic bill ever the "Patriot act". "They voted against Just like "make America great again" too. Make the name sound good and you've got a perfect soundbyte. Also why they always talk about repealing Obamacare, not the Affordable Care Act.
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Jun 22, 2017 17:09
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Patriot Act. Also if the objections are posturing they're going to get it moved towards less coverage/ even less subsidies than now.
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Jun 22, 2017 17:09
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https://twitter.com/braddjaffy/status/877921924977803264 I don't expect the approval of the Senate bill to be any higher. Voting for a bill this unpopular would be instant political suicide if the GOP still believed the opinion of the electorate mattered.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:03
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gently caress it. Split the states.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:04
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Rhesus Pieces posted:https://twitter.com/braddjaffy/status/877921924977803264 Nothing matters unfortunately so they'll do it and probably somehow be rewarded for it.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:04
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https://twitter.com/ranttnews/status/877916088662503424 https://twitter.com/athertonkd/status/877929543801032708 Great optics guys, really hope those tax cuts your donors are just going to sit on in untaxed bank accounts are worth it. Who am I kidding, they don't give a gently caress about optics anymore.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:12
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Great optics guys, really hope those tax cuts your donors are just going to sit on in untaxed bank accounts are worth it. They do care about optics, and their supporters look at this and think "gently caress yeah, show those people who's in charge"
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Jun 22, 2017 18:13
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If the healthcare legislation is so absurdly unpopular, why does it seem like nobody is really opposing this legislation? I know that without a majority in either the house or Senate the Democrats can't stop it themselves. But they should absolutely be doing everything they can to weaponize the public perception against it. There should people marching in the streets, politicians slinging vitriolic slogans on 24 hour news, and spit flying out of John Q Public's mouth. Instead, there's just quiet desperation.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:13
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BlueberryCanary posted:If the healthcare legislation is so absurdly unpopular, why does it seem like nobody is really opposing this legislation? I know that without a majority in either the house or Senate the Democrats can't stop it themselves. But they should absolutely be doing everything they can to weaponize the public perception against it. There should people marching in the streets, politicians slinging vitriolic slogans on 24 hour news, and spit flying out of John Q Public's mouth. Instead, there's just quiet desperation. Because the Democrats don't own the news media as a propaganda arm like the GOP and Fox News. That opposition to healthcare legislation was 100% fox news. Also the Dems have been mounting opposition - what do you think all those town halls were about?
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Jun 22, 2017 18:17
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BlueberryCanary posted:If the healthcare legislation is so absurdly unpopular, why does it seem like nobody is really opposing this legislation? I know that without a majority in either the house or Senate the Democrats can't stop it themselves. But they should absolutely be doing everything they can to weaponize the public perception against it. There should people marching in the streets, politicians slinging vitriolic slogans on 24 hour news, and spit flying out of John Q Public's mouth. Instead, there's just quiet desperation. They're making day-to-day senatorial processes as miserable as they can and speaking out on their own outreach feeds and whenever they can get on the news. Problem is the Russia stuff (which is vitally important and shouldn't be entirely ignored in favor of health care) plus the GOP's secrecy up until today have combined to make it difficult for the media to dedicate much airtime to any of this.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:17
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Yeah, the bill has only been officially released for a few hours now. It was kept secret for so long purely to suppress coverage and pushback from the opposition. We all had a good idea of what would be in the bill but nothing solid to attack until right now. Expect coverage and public outrage to ramp up considerably from here on out, but the amount of time for that to derail things has been compressed purposefully.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:24
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https://twitter.com/mepfuller/status/877940140462792705 They don't even need the weak libertarian fig leaf anymore. It's just a straight giveaway, redistributing wealth directly upward.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:53
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