Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

Tiggum posted:

He's overlooking a pretty obvious point here. If snakes were as intelligent as they seem to parselmouths, muggles would almost certainly know about it. That's an inconsistency that suggests he's missing some key information. When a parselmouth talks to a snake, the snake seems about as intelligent as a human. When anyone else interacts with a snake, the snake demonstrates no such cognitive ability. So either snakes are hiding their intelligence from the vast majority of humans for some reason, or they're not actually that smart and there's some other explanation for why they seem to be to certain individuals. That should be your first avenue of investigation.

Obviously parselmouth taps into the intelligence of the platonic ideal of the mythological snake for the duration of the conversation. Snakes are universally seen symbolically by man as creatures of great wisdom and cunning. Their reputation as tricksters is commonplace (but not universal) and whether their nature is benign, mischievous or malevolent is more malleable. You are talking to the Ur-serpent.

# ? Jun 21, 2017 22:34

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# ? May 20, 2024 23:45

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Parseltongue is just a form of mind magic to allow you to program snake nervous systems and extract stored data using a verbal interface. Your will is ultimately what's guiding the snake, like the Imperius curse.

# ? Jun 22, 2017 06:24

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Either of those explanation is more plausible than "snakes have secretly been as intelligent as humans this whole time and no one noticed".

# ? Jun 22, 2017 06:36

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Unless I'm forgetting something it never seems like snakes are unusually intelligent in the books anyway, with the obvious exception of Nagini.

# ? Jun 22, 2017 06:39

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

Doctor Spaceman posted:

Unless I'm forgetting something it never seems like snakes are unusually intelligent in the books anyway, with the obvious exception of Nagini.

The very first bit of magic we get is a snake that knows it's supposed to be from Brazil despite being raised in captivity, and also apparently knows how to read.

# ? Jun 22, 2017 06:48

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

reignonyourparade posted:

The very first bit of magic we get is a snake that knows it's supposed to be from Brazil despite being raised in captivity, and also apparently knows how to read.

Because Harry knows these things, and childishly expects the snake (which is partially real and partially constructed by Harry's magic) to know them, too.

# ? Jun 22, 2017 06:59

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

reignonyourparade posted:

The very first bit of magic we get is a snake that knows it's supposed to be from Brazil despite being raised in captivity, and also apparently knows how to read.

Fair enough. It's been ages since I've read the books, and the snake in the movie version isn't quite as capable (it only does the second part).

# ? Jun 22, 2017 07:06

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

Second hypothesis: In Muggle terms, Parseltongue is a very advanced chatbot that can access your surface consciousness and an external knowledge database to simulate the illusion of intelligence in snake on human conversation.

# ? Jun 22, 2017 07:34

Dalris Othaine: Oct 14, 2013; I think, therefore I am inevitable.

Pvt.Scott posted:

Second hypothesis: In Muggle terms, Parseltongue is a very advanced chatbot that can access your surface consciousness and an external knowledge database to simulate the illusion of intelligence in snake on human conversation.

Probably coded in Python.

# ? Jun 22, 2017 07:37

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Dalris Othaine posted:

Probably coded in Python.

# ? Jun 22, 2017 07:56

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 49: Prior Information

quote:

Hello, Professor Quirrell," Harry said without letting his eyes move again from the direction of their carriage.

"Salutations," said the calm voice of Professor Quirrell. "You seem to be keeping your distance, Mr. Potter. I don't suppose you see something odd about our conveyance?"

"Odd?" Harry echoed. "Why no, I can't say I see anything odd. There seem to be even numbers of everything. Four seats, four wheels, two huge skeletal winged horses..."

A skin-wrapped skull turned to look at him and flashed teeth, solid and white in that black cavernous mouth, as though to indicate that it was just about as fond of him as he was of it. The other black leathery horse-skeleton tossed its head like it was whickering, but there was no sound.

"They are Thestrals, and they have always drawn the carriage," Professor Quirrell said, sounding quite undisturbed as he climbed into the front bench of the carriage, sitting down as far to the right as possible. "They are visible only to those who have seen death and comprehended it, a useful defense against most animal predators. Hm. I suppose that the first time you went in front of the Dementor, your worst memory proved to be the night of your encounter with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named?"

Harry nodded grimly. It was the right guess, even if for the wrong reasons. Those who have seen Death...

"Did you recall anything of interest, thereby?"

"Yes," Harry said, "I did," only that and nothing more, for he was not ready as yet to make accusations.

Didn't Harry see these things when he first arrived at Hogwarts? Did Harriezer seriously repress those memories?

Also, I have no idea what accusations Harriezer might be making now. Dementor conspiracy theories? He hasn't actually learned anything.

quote:

Harry still hadn't decided what he was allowed to eat for lunch.

His library research hadn't turned up any sign of wizards speaking to nonmagical plants. Or any other nonmagical animals besides snakes, although Spell and Speak by Paul Breedlove had recounted the probably-mythical tale of a sorceress called the Lady of Flying Squirrels.

What Harry wanted to do was ask Professor Quirrell. The problem was that Professor Quirrell was too smart. Judging by what Draco had said, the Heir of Slytherin business was a major bombshell, and Harry wasn't sure he wanted anyone else to know. And the instant Harry asked about Parseltongue, Professor Quirrell would fix him with those pale blue eyes and say, 'I see, Mr. Potter, so you taught Mr. Malfoy the Patronus Charm and accidentally spoke to his snake.'

It wouldn't matter that it shouldn't be enough evidence to locate the true explanation as a hypothesis, let alone overcome its burden of prior improbability. Somehow the Defense Professor would deduce it anyway.

...

Harry hesitated in sudden dismay. He'd resolved to stick to vegetarian dishes for the moment, but he'd forgotten in his deliberations that Professor Quirrell did the actual ordering - and it would be awkward if he protested now -

The waitress bowed to them, and turned to go -

"Erm, excuse me, any meat in that from snakes or flying squirrels?"

The waitress didn't so much as blink an eye, only turned back to Harry, shook her head, bowed politely to him again, and resumed her walk toward the door.

(The other parts of Harry were snickering at him. Gryffindor was making sardonic comments about how a little social discomfort was enough to get him to resort to Cannibalism! (shouted by Hufflepuff), and Slytherin was remarking on how nice it was that Harry's ethics were flexible when it came to important goals like maintaining his relationship with Professor Quirrell.)

quote:

Harry kept his face steady. "I was looking up some facts about the Patronus Charm earlier," he said. "According to The Patronus Charm: Wizards Who Could and Couldn't, it turns out that Godric couldn't and Salazar could. I was surprised, so I looked up the reference, in Four Lives of Power. And then I discovered that Salazar Slytherin could supposedly talk to snakes." (Temporal sequence wasn't the same as causation, it wasn't Harry's fault if Professor Quirrell missed that.) "Further research turned up an old story about a mother goddess type who could talk to flying squirrels. I was a bit worried about the prospect of eating something that could talk."

And Harry took a casual sip of his water -

- just as Professor Quirrell said, "Mr. Potter, would I be correct in guessing that you are also a Parselmouth?"

When Harry was done coughing, he set his glass of water back down on the table, fixed his gaze on Professor Quirrell's chin rather than looking him in the eyes, and said, "So you are able to perform Legilimency through my Occlumency barriers, then."

Professor Quirrell was grinning widely. "I shall take that as a compliment, Mr. Potter, but no."

"I'm not buying this anymore," Harry said. "There's no way you came to that conclusion based on that evidence."

...

This is not a puzzle you can solve on your own, Mr. Potter, so I will reveal the answer. Over the winter holiday, I was alerted to the fact that the Headmaster had filed a request for a closed judicial panel to review the case of one Mr. Rubeus Hagrid, whom you know as the Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts, and who was accused of the murder of Abigail Myrtle in 1943."

"Oh, of course," said Harry, "that makes it downright obvious that I'm a Parselmouth. Professor, what the sweet slithering snakes -"

"The other suspect for that murder was Slytherin's Monster, the legendary inhabitant of Slytherin's Chamber of Secrets. Which is why certain sources alerted me to the fact, and why it caught my attention sufficiently that I spent a good deal of bribe money to learn the details of the case. Now in point of fact, Mr. Potter, Mr. Hagrid is innocent. Ridiculously obviously innocent. He is the most blatantly innocent bystander to be convicted by the magical British legal system since Grindelwald's Confunding of Neville Chamberlain was pinned on Amanda Knox. Headmaster Dippet prompted a student puppet to accuse Mr. Hagrid because Dippet needed a scapegoat to take the blame for the death of Miss Myrtle, and our marvelous justice system agreed that this was plausible enough to warrant Mr. Hagrid's expulsion and the snapping of his wand. Our current Headmaster needs merely provide some new item of evidence significant enough to reconvene the case; and with Dumbledore applying pressure instead of Dippet, the result is a foregone conclusion. Lucius Malfoy has no particular reason to fear Mr. Hagrid's vindication; thus Lucius Malfoy will only resist to the extent that he can do so costlessly in order to impose costs on Dumbledore, and Dumbledore is clearly willing to prosecute the case regardless."

As an aside, one of the many (maaaaaaany) problems with the whole "Lucius and Dumbledore are playing chess with every wizard a pawn" is:

1. Lucius is dumb, dumb, REALLY loving DUMB. Possibly even dumber than he is in the original series, if you can imagine that.

2. Lucius (as far as we know) has no real plans or aspirations that could not be achieved by assassinating Dumbledore outright. Which... shouldn't really be that much of a problem for the ruthless heir to an evil / racist / dark magic-ish / slytherin house, even a retarded one.

...

With that said, the real meat of the conversation is about the goals and history of Slytherin's monster:

quote:

. The Headmaster further argues that this favors the interpretation that the Chamber of Secrets was indeed opened in 1943, approximately the right time frame for He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, a known Parselmouth, to have attended Hogwarts. It is a rather questionable logic, but a judicial panel may rule that it swings the case far enough to bring Mr. Hagrid's guilt into doubt, if they can manage to keep a straight face as they say it. And now we come to the key question: how did the Headmaster discover this hidden spell on the Sorting Hat?"

Professor Quirrell was smiling thinly now. "Well now, let us suppose that there was a Parselmouth in this year's crop of students, a potential Heir of Slytherin. You must admit, Mr. Potter, that you stand out as a possibility whenever extraordinary people are considered. And if I then further ask myself which new Slytherin would be most likely to have his mental privacy invaded by the Headmaster, specifically hunting the memories of his Sorting, why, you stand out even more."

...

"Well then, Mr. Potter, I shall freely tell you what I know or suspect. First, I believe the Chamber of Secrets is real, as is Slytherin's Monster. Miss Myrtle's death was not discovered until hours after her demise, even though the wards should have alerted the Headmaster instantly. Therefore her murder was performed either by Headmaster Dippet, which is unlikely, or by some entity which Salazar Slytherin keyed into his wards at a higher level than the Headmaster himself. Second, I suspect that contrary to popular legend, the purpose of Slytherin's Monster was not to rid Hogwarts of Muggleborns. Unless Slytherin's Monster were powerful enough to defeat the Headmaster of Hogwarts and all the teachers, it could not triumph by force. Multiple murders in secrecy would result in the school's closure, as nearly happened in 1943, or in the placing of new wards. So why Slytherin's Monster, Mr. Potter? What true purpose does it serve?"

"Ah..." Harry dropped his gaze to his waterglass and tried to think. "To kill anyone who got into the Chamber and didn't belong there -"

"A monster powerful enough to defeat a team of wizards that had broken past the best wards Salazar could place on his Chamber? Unlikely."

Harry was feeling a bit pressured now. "Well, it's called the Chamber of Secrets, so maybe the Monster has a secret, or is a secret?" For that matter, just what sort of secrets were in the Chamber of Secrets in the first place? Harry hadn't done a lot of research on the subject, in part because he'd gotten the impression that nobody knew anything -

Professor Quirrell was smiling. "Why not just write the secret down?"

"Ahhh..." said Harry. "Because if the Monster spoke Parseltongue, that would ensure that only a true descendant of Slytherin could hear the secret?"

"Easy enough to key the wards on the Chamber to a phrase spoken in Parseltongue. Why go to the trouble of creating Slytherin's Monster? It cannot have been easy to create a creature with a lifespan of centuries. Come, Mr. Potter, it should be obvious; what are the secrets that can be told from one living mind to another, but never written down?"

Harry saw it then, with a burst of adrenaline that started his heart racing, his breath coming faster. "Oh."

Salazar Slytherin had been very cunning indeed. Cunning enough to come up with a way to bypass the Interdict of Merlin.

Powerful wizardries couldn't be transmitted through books or ghosts, but if you could create a long-lived enough sentient creature with a good enough memory -

See? All the needlesly convoluted poo poo the author came up with just comes together now. Mostly to cancel each other out, but it comes together nonetheless.

Seriously. The interdict of Merlin has zero reason to actually be in the story. It doesn't affect anything - it's just a random complication that is swiftly bypassed and ignored.

quote:

Harry was grinning now, a very evil grin. New priority: Find everything in Hogwarts that looks remotely like a snake and try speaking to it. Starting with everything you've already tried, only this time be sure to use Parseltongue instead of English - get Draco to let you into the Slytherin dorms -

"Don't become too excited, Mr. Potter," said Professor Quirrell. His own face had become expressionless, now. "You must continue thinking. What were the Dark Lord's parting words to Slytherin's Monster?"

"What? " Harry said. "How could either of us possibly know that?"

"Visualize the scene, Mr. Potter. Let your imagination fill in the details. Slytherin's Monster - probably some great serpent, so that only a Parselmouth may speak to it - has finished imparting all of the knowledge it possesses to He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. It conveys to him Salazar's final benediction, and warns him that the Chamber of Secrets must now remain closed until the next descendant of Salazar should prove cunning enough to open it. And he who will become the Dark Lord nods, and says to it -"

"Avada Kedavra," said Harry, suddenly feeling sick to his stomach.

"Rule Twelve," Professor Quirrell said quietly. "Never leave the source of your power lying around where someone else can find it."

Harry's gaze dropped to the tablecloth, which had decorated itself in a mournful pattern of black flowers and shadows. Somehow that seemed... too sad to be imagined, Slytherin's great snake had only wanted to help Lord Voldemort, and Lord Voldemort had just... there was something unbearably sorrowful about it, what sort of person would do that to a being who'd offered them nothing but friendship... "Do you think the Dark Lord would have -"

"Yes," Professor Quirrell said flatly. "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named left quite a trail of bodies behind him, Mr. Potter; I doubt he would have omitted that one. If there were any artifacts left there that could be moved, the Dark Lord would have taken those with him as well. There might still be something worth seeing in the Chamber of Secrets, and to find it would prove yourself the true Heir of Slytherin. But do not raise your hopes too high. I suspect that all you will find is the remains of Slytherin's Monster resting quietly in its grave."

Then Quirrell casts 30 spells to ensure their privacy which... I'm not much of an author, but a powerful wizard trying to relate a secret should really settle things with 1-3 spells. 30 goes past "expert in security", past "paranoid" and into purely ineffectual.

quote:

A serious secret, Mr. Potter," Professor Quirrell said. His eyes were intent, his face grave. "One which could potentially send me to Azkaban. Think about it before you reply."

For a moment Harry didn't even see why the question should be hard, given his growing collection of secrets. Then -

If this secret could send Professor Quirrell to Azkaban, that means he's done something illegal...

Harry's brain performed a few calculations. Whatever the secret, Professor Quirrell did not think his illegal act would reflect badly on him in Harry's eyes. There was no advantage to be gained from not hearing it. And if it did reveal something wrong with Professor Quirrell, then it was very much to Harry's advantage to know it, even if he had promised not to tell anyone.

"I never had very much respect for authority," Harry said. "Legal and governmental authority included. I will keep your secret."

...

There was a blur, a shift, a sudden motion.

Harry aborted his panicked backward leap halfway through, leaving him windmilling his arms and trying not to fall over, a frantic flush of adrenaline running through him.

At the other end of the room swayed a snake a meter high, bright green and intricately banded in white and blue. Harry didn't know enough snakelore to recognize it, but he knew that 'brightly colored' meant 'poisonous'.

The constant sense of doom had diminished, ironically enough, after the Defense Professor of Hogwarts had turned into a venomous snake.

Harry swallowed hard and said, "Greetings - ah, hssss, no, ah, greetingss."

"Sso," hissed the snake. "You sspeak, I hear. I sspeak, you hear? "

"Yess, I hear," hissed Harry. "You are an Animaguss? "

"Obvioussly," hissed the snake. "Thirty-sseven ruless, number thirty-four: Become Animaguss. All ssensible people do, if can. Thuss, very rare.

Actually, the rule is "don't turn into a giant snake. It never helps". No one bothers to explain what exactly is the advantage (except for the contrived specific set of circumstances below) that's worth risking going to Azkaban.

quote:

The snake's eyes were flat surfaces ensconced within dark pits, sharp black pupils in dark gray fields. "This iss mosst ssecure way to sspeak. You ssee? No otherss undersstand uss."

"Even if they are ssnake Animagi? "

"Not unlesss heir of Sslytherin willss." The snake gave a series of short hisses which Harry's brain translated as sardonic laughter. "Sslytherin not sstupid. Ssnake Animaguss not ssame as Parsselmouth. Would be huge flaw in sscheme."

Good thing we never bothered to explain how and why Parselmouths work, so that this doesn't directly contradict anything.

quote:

at Harry. "Animaguss musst be regisstered. Penalty is two yearss imprissonment. Will you keep my ssecret, boy? "

"Yess," hissed Harry. "Would never break promisse."

The snake seemed to hold still, as though in shock, and then began to sway again. "We come here next in sseven dayss. Bring cloak to passs unsseen, bring hourglasss to move through time -"

"You know? " hissed Harry in shock. "How -"

Again the series of short quick hisses that translated as sardonic laughter. "You arrive in my firsst classs while sstill in other classs, sstrike down enemy with pie, two ballss of memory -"

"Never mind," hissed Harry. "Sstupid question, forgot you were ssmart."

"Foolissh thing to forget," said the snake, but the hiss did not seem offended.

"Hourglasss is resstricted," Harry said. "Cannot usse until ninth hour."

The snake twitched its head, a snakish nod. "Many resstrictionss. Locked to your usse only, cannot be sstolen. Cannot transsport other humanss. But ssnake carried in pouch, I ssuspect will go with. Think posssible to hold hourglasss motionlesss within sshell, without dissturbing wardss, while you turn sshell around it. We will tesst in sseven dayss. Will not sspeak of planss beyond thiss. You ssay nothing, to no one. Give no ssign of expectancy, none. Undersstand? "

Harry nodded.

"Ansswer in sspeech."

"Yess."

"Will do as I ssaid? "

"Yess. But," Harry gave a wobbling rasp that was how his mind had translated a hesitant 'Ahhh' into snakish, "I do not promisse to do whatever thiss iss, you have not ssaid -"

This is actually getting into the central conflict of the story, such as it. It only took us 50 chapters to start moving towards it.

...

quote:

"Hermione is having trouble, though, and I was wondering if you might have any suggestions for her."

The Defense Professor ate several spoonfuls of soup in silence, then; and when he spoke again, his voice was oddly flat. "You really care about that girl."

"Yes," Harry said quietly.

"I suppose that is why she was able to bring you out of your Dementation?"

"More or less," Harry said. The statement was true in a way, just not exact; it was not that his Demented self had cared, but that it had been confused.

"I did not have any friends like that when I was young." Still the same emotionless voice. "What would have become of you, I wonder, if you had been alone?"

Harry shivered before he could stop himself.

"You must be feeling grateful to her."

Harry just nodded. Not quite exact, but true.

"Then here is what I might have done at your age, if there had been anyone to do it for -"

And, chapter end. Next time, we'll see how to suave and charismatic manipulator Quirrelmort helps rehabilitate Hermione's reputation as a Dark Witch.

# ? Jun 23, 2017 15:09

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Ah, factual errors.

quote:

This is not a puzzle you can solve on your own, Mr. Potter, so I will reveal the answer. Over the winter holiday, I was alerted to the fact that the Headmaster had filed a request for a closed judicial panel to review the case of one Mr. Rubeus Hagrid, whom you know as the Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts, and who was accused of the murder of Abigail Myrtle in 1943."

Surprising nobody, this is wrong. Myrtle is her given name. We didn't find out her surname until someone asked Rowling after the series was over (it's Warren) but Myrtle has always been her first name.

I don't know what to say about HPMoR otherwise other than 'this is kind of awful'. Good on you for keeping up with it.

# ? Jun 23, 2017 15:30

divabot: Jun 17, 2015; A polite little mouse!

On Phil Sandifer's Tumblr last night:

quote:

deathchrist2000 asked: Chapter 49 of HPMR details Voldemort's slaying of the basilisk underneath Hogwarts, so as to keep the dark truth revealed to him a secret from the rest of the world (I only found this out due to backlog in my DA account forcing me to move old works I liked on the site from years ago into new folders). The little research I could find on the timeline of events places this chapter roughly a year after Roko's Basilisk. Does this add anything of note to Neoreaction a Basilisk?

I wouldn�t say it adds anything of note, but it�s funny. I wonder if Yudkowsky was self-aware there.

edit: yes, some bastard bought this avatar at me

# ? Jun 23, 2017 17:20

Mazerunner: Apr 22, 2010; Good Hunter, what... what is this post?

uggghh, I can't remember if the snakes in the series ssspoke with the sssibilant esssesss but I'm pretty sure if they did it wasn't a drawn out, serious conversation about plots and secrets and jail time. Kind of ruins the vibe he's going for, I think.

and... ok, so Harry realizing that either snakes are sentient or magic can make them sentient- but then going all the way to the wild conclusion that he shouldn't eat his vegetables, that could be kind of charming. Like he's eleven, that sort of characterization could be fun. But here it's just... it doesn't mesh at all with an eleven year old seriously plotting to take over the world, or achieve immortality or talking about the dozens of ways he could kill people or whatever the gently caress. Just a lot of tonal whiplash. Or like, from an outside perspective there's no difference between him freaking out about carrots and any of the other poo poo he gets up to, except that one is zany to Yud to it's obviously a joke and one is serious so give him money. Undermines "Harry the uber-rational genius scientist", I guess. No self-awareness.

Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jun 23, 2017

# ? Jun 23, 2017 19:06

naptalan: Feb 18, 2009

I read this amazing review of The Book of Henry last night and couldn't help but think of HPMOR :allears:

It sounds a lot like a non-magical version of Harry, complete with the bizarre plots, mistrust of adults making adult decisions, and lecturing to classmates about the Right Way to do things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz8R2xxeyaA

thathappened.wav posted:

"Henry, remind me again why we can't put you in a gifted school?"
"Because it's better for my psychosocial development for me to interact with the peer group in a normal school environment."
"Oh, yeah"

# ? Jun 25, 2017 04:29

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Xander77 posted:

Chapter 49: Prior Information

This is just a whole lot of convoluted bullshit that I suspect doesn't even matter to the story, so I just want to say how much I hate that gimmick of him having the voices of the four "houses" of his subconscious talking to him in his head.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 07:53

MatchaZed: Feb 14, 2010; We Can Do It!

naptalan posted:

I read this amazing review of The Book of Henry last night and couldn't help but think of HPMOR It sounds a lot like a non-magical version of Harry, complete with the bizarre plots, mistrust of adults making adult decisions, and lecturing to classmates about the Right Way to do things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz8R2xxeyaA

Holy gently caress that review. I read the review on The Atlantic and was reminded of HPMoR, but gently caress, that was a wild ride.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 16:16

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Mazerunner posted:

uggghh, I can't remember if the snakes in the series ssspoke with the sssibilant esssesss but I'm pretty sure if they did it wasn't a drawn out, serious conversation about plots and secrets and jail time. Kind of ruins the vibe he's going for, I think.

They do. 'Thanksss, amigo' as early as book one. But, as you note, it was not a long conversation.

Could be worse though. Voldemort does a long conversation... like this... with no full stops, ever... for quite a while...

Prism fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Jun 25, 2017

# ? Jun 25, 2017 16:32

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 50: Self Centeredness

In which Harriezer attempts to salvage Hermione's reputation by donning his invisiblity cloak and going "boogity boogity" at Padma Patil:

quote:

The whispering sigh came again, soft and dangerous with a slight hissing undertone.

"Padma Patil, Slytherin girl..."

"Harry Potter, Slytherin boy," she said out loud.

She'd fought Potter and his Chaos Legion a dozen times over, and she knew that this was Harry Potter doing this somehow...

...even though the Ventriloquism Charm was only line-of-sight, and in the winding corridor, she could easily see all the way to the nearest twist both forward and backward, and there was no one there...

...it didn't matter. She knew her enemy.

There was a whispery chuckle, now coming from beside her, and she spun around and pointed her wand at the whisper and shouted "Luminos! "

The red bolt of light shot out and struck the wall, which lit with a crimson glow that soon faded.

She hadn't really expected it to work. Harry Potter couldn't possibly be invisible, not really invisible, that was magic most grownups couldn't do, and she'd never believed nine-tenths of the stories about him.

But she's not accounting for Harriezer being the suest of suest, with his own invisiblity cloak (in the original books, fair enough) and time turner of problem solving.

quote:

Again the soft laugh. "Harry Potter has been in the Ravenclaw common room for the last half-hour, helping Kevin Entwhistle and Michael Corner rehearse Potions recipes. But it matters not. I am here to deliver a warning to you, Padma Patil, and if you choose to ignore it, that is your own affair."

"Fine," she said coldly. "Go ahead and warn me, Potter, I'm not afraid of you."

"Slytherin was a great House, once," said the whisper; it sounded sadder, now. "Slytherin was once a House you would have been proud to choose, Padma Patil. But something turned wrong, something turned sour; do you know what went awry in Slytherin House, Padma Patil?"

"No, and I don't care!"

"But you should care," said the whisper, now sounding like it was coming from just behind her head where it stood almost pressed against the wall. "For you are still that girl whom the Sorting Hat offered that choice. Do you think that just choosing Ravenclaw means that you are not Pansy Parkinson, and will not ever become Pansy Parkinson, no matter how you conduct yourself otherwise?"

Despite everything, now, small chills of fear were spreading out from her spine and running over her skin. She'd heard those stories about Harry Potter too, that he was a secret Legilimens. But she still stood straight, and she put all the bite she could into her voice when she said, "The Slytherins went Dark to get power, just like you did, Potter. And I won't, not ever."

"But you'll spread vicious rumors about an innocent girl," whispered the voice, "even though it will not help you attain any of your own ambitions, and without considering that she has powerful allies who might take offense. That is not the proud Slytherin of the old days, Padma Patil, that is not the pride of Salazar, that is Slytherin gone rotten, Padma Parkinson not Padma Malfoy..."

quote:

"Oh, don't be afraid," breathed the voice. "I will not hurt you. For you see, Padma Patil, Hermione Granger truly is innocent. She does not stand on the precipice, she is not falling. She did not ask her allies to refrain from hurting you, because the thought did not even occur to her as a possibility. And Harry Potter knows very well that if he hurt you or caused you to be hurt, for Hermione Granger's sake, then she would never speak to him again until the Sun burned low and the last star failed in the night sky." The voice was very sad now. "She truly is a kindly girl, a person such as I could only wish to be..."

...

"And Harry Potter is not Hermione Granger's only ally." Now there was an undertone of dry amusement in that whisper, it reminded her suddenly and frighteningly of Professor Quirrell. "Filius Flitwick and Minerva McGonagall are quite fond of her, I do believe. Did it occur to you that if those two learned what you were doing to Hermione Granger, they might become less fond of you? They might not intervene openly, perhaps; but they might be a little slower to award you House Points, a little slower to steer opportunities your way -"

"Potter snarked on me?"

A ghostly chuckle, a dry heh-heh-heh. "Do you think those two are stupid, deaf and blind?" In a sadder whisper, "Do you think Hermione Granger is not precious to them, that they will not see her hurting? As they might have been fond of you once, their bright young Padma Patil, but you are throwing it away..."

Padma's throat was dry. She hadn't thought of that, not at all.

"I wonder how many people will end up caring for you, Padma Patil, on this path that you now tread. Is it worth that much, just to distance yourself further from your sister? To be the shadow to Parvati's light? Your deepest fear has always been to fall into harmony with her, back into harmony with her I should say; but is it worth hurting an innocent girl, just to make yourself that much more different? Must you be the evil twin, Padma Patil, can you not find a different good to pursue?"

Her heart was hammering in her chest. She'd, she'd never talked about that with anyone -

quote:

You did not choose sides when you went to Ravenclaw, girl. You choose your side by the way you live your life, what you do to other people and what you do to yourself. Will you illuminate others' lives, or darken them? That is the choice between Light and Dark, not any word the Sorting Hat cries out. And the hard part, Padma Patil, is not saying 'Light', the hard part is deciding which is which, and admitting it to yourself when you begin down the wrong road."

That is actually good. It's a quote from a smarter person, granted, but it's actually good.

Let's just keep blathering and burying it under a pile of :words:

though:

quote:

"I have not always chosen rightly between Light and Dark," the whisper said, now loud and harsh directly into her ear. "Do not take my wisdom as a final word, girl, do not fear to question it, for though I tried I have sometimes failed, oh, yes, I have failed. But you are hurting a true innocent, and you will achieve none of your ambitions by doing so, it is not for any cunning plan. You are inflicting pain purely for the sake of the pleasure it brings you. I have not always chosen rightly between Light and Dark, but that I know for darkness, for certain. You are hurting an innocent girl, and escaping retribution only because she is too kindly to tolerate her allies moving against you. I cannot hurt you for that, so know only that I cannot respect it. You are unworthy of Slytherin; go and do your Herbology homework, Ravenclaw girl!"

So she runs into the Ravenclaw dorm:

quote:

Padma was already striding toward the pentagonal table. She looked at Harry Potter, who was looking at her with his own gaze, calm and grave and a little sad.

"You did this!" Padma said. "How - you - how dare you!"

There was a sudden hush in the Ravenclaw dorm.

Harry just looked at her.

And said, "Is there anything I can help you with?"

"Don't deny it," Padma said, her voice shaking, "you set that ghost on me, it said -"

"I mean it," Harry said. "Can I help you with anything? Get you some food, or go fetch a soda for you, or help you with your homework, or anything like that?"

Everyone was staring at the two of them.

"Why?" Padma said. She couldn't think of anything else to say, she didn't understand.

"Because some of us are standing on the precipice," Harry said. "And the difference is what you do for other people. Will you let me help you with something, Padma, please?"

She stared at him, and knew, in that moment, that he'd gotten his own warning, same as her.

"I..." she said. "I've got to write six inches on lomillialor -"

"Let me run up to my dorm room and get my Herbology stuff," Harry said. He rose from the pentagonal table, looked at Entwhistle and Corner. "Sorry, guys, I'll see you later."

They didn't say anything, just stared, along with everyone else in the dorm room, as Harry Potter walked over to the stairs.

And just as he started up, he said, "And no one's to pester her with questions unless she wants to talk about it, I hope everyone's got that? "

"Got it," said most of the first years and some of the older students, a few of them sounding quite scared.

See? Lesson definitely learned.

quote:

And she talked about a lot of things with Harry Potter besides lomillialor wood - even her fear of falling back into harmony with Parvati, which she'd never talked about with anyone before, but then Harry's ghostly ally already knew. And Harry had reached into his pouch and pulled out some odd books, loaning them to her on condition of complete secrecy, saying that if she could comprehend those books it would change the pattern of her thinking enough that she'd never fall into harmony with Parvati again...

Sadly, this is quite possibly the closest the series ever comes to some realistic thought into the origins of bullying. Or even childish misbehaving that is treated as such, instead of being elevated to appropriate master-manipulation.

quote:

Earlier:

"I told you to be nicer! " shrieked Hermione.

Harry was starting to sweat. He'd never actually heard Hermione scream at him before, and it was quite loud in the empty classroom.

"I - but - but I was nice!" Harry protested. "I practically redeemed her, Padma was going down the wrong path and I turned her off it! I probably changed her whole life to be happier! Besides, you should've heard the original version of what Professor Quirrell suggested I do -" at which point Harry realized what he was saying and closed his mouth a second too late.

Hermione clutched at her chestnut curls, a gesture Harry hadn't seen from her before. "What'd he say to do? Kill her?"

The Defense Professor had suggested that Harry identify all the key influential students inside and outside his year and try to gain control of the entire Hogwarts rumor mill, remarking that this was a generally useful and amusing challenge for any true Slytherin attending Hogwarts.

"Nothing like that," Harry said quickly, "he just said in a general way that I should get influence over the people spreading rumors, and I decided that the nice version of that would be to just inform Padma directly about the meaning of what she was doing, and the possible consequences of her actions, instead of trying to threaten her or anything like that -"

"You call that not threatening someone? " Hermione's hands were pulling at her hair now.

"Um..." Harry said. "I guess she might've felt a little threatened, but Hermione, people will do whatever they think they can get away with, they don't care about how much it hurts other people if it doesn't hurt themselves, if Padma thinks there's no consequences to spreading lies about you then of course she'll just go on doing it -"

"And you think there's going to be no consequences to what you did?"

Harry got a sudden sick feeling to his stomach.

Hermione had the angriest look on her that he'd ever seen. "What do you think the other students think of you now, Harry? Of me? If Harry doesn't like the way you talk about Hermione, you'll get ghosts set on you, is that what you want them to think?"

Harry opened his mouth and no words came out, he just... hadn't thought about it that way, actually...

Hermione reached down to grab her books from the table where she'd slammed them. "I'm not talking to you for a week, and I'll tell everyone I'm not talking to you for a week, and I'll tell them why, and maybe that'll undo some of what you just did. And after that week, I'll - I'll decide then what to do, I guess -"

"Hermione! " Harry's own voice rose to a shriek of desperation. "I was trying to help! "

The girl turned back and looked at him as she opened the classroom door.

"Harry," she said, and her voice trembled a little beneath the anger, "Professor Quirrell is sucking you into the darkness, he really is, I mean it, Harry."

"This... wasn't him, this wasn't what he said to do, this was just me -"

Hermione's voice was almost a whisper now. "Someday you're going to go out to lunch with him, and it will be your dark side that comes back, or maybe even you won't come back at all."

"I promise you," Harry said, "that I will come back from lunch."

He wasn't even thinking as he said it.

And Hermione just turned around and strode out and slammed the door behind her.

Way to invoke the laws of dramatic irony, moron, observed Harry's Internal Critic. Now you're going to die this Saturday, your last words will be 'I'm sorry, Hermione', and she'll always regret that the last thing she did was slam the door -

Oh, shut up.

quote:

When Padma sat down with Hermione for breakfast, and said in a voice loud enough for others to hear that the ghost had just told her things that were important for her to hear, and Harry Potter had been right to do it, there were some people who were less frightened afterward, and some who were frightened more.

And afterward people did say fewer nasty things about Hermione, at least in the first year, at least in public where Harry Potter might hear about it.

When Professor Flitwick asked Harry if he was responsible for what had happened to Padma, and Harry said yes, Professor Flitwick told him that he was to serve two days' detention. Even if it had only been a ghost and Padma hadn't been hurt, still, that wasn't acceptable behavior for a Ravenclaw student. Harry nodded and said that he understood why the Professor had to do that, and wouldn't protest; but considering that it did seem to have turned Padma around, did Professor Flitwick really think, off the record, that he'd done the wrong thing? And Professor Flitwick paused, seeming to actually think about it, and then said to Harry, in a solemnly squeaky voice, that he needed to learn how to relate to other students the normal way.

And Harry couldn't help but think that this was advice that Professor Quirrell would never give him.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2017/06/22/if-we-confess-our-sins/
See guys, my author-insert character can be wrong. Sorta. Kinda. Really. I swear. Except not really, obviously.

# ? Jun 26, 2017 12:20

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Xander77 posted:

Chapter 50: Self Centeredness

This section is way too long and rambling, but my biggest problem with it is that it really doesn't seem like Padma should be scared? She knows all along that it's Harry being a dick, and all he's apparently doing is making some surprisingly astute guesses about her and telling her she should be a better person? She even thinks it's a ghost doing his bidding, and aren't ghosts essentially harmless?

But also it's way too long and rambling.

# ? Jun 26, 2017 15:31

Stroth: Mar 31, 2007; All Problems Solved

Xander77 posted:

Then Quirrell casts 30 spells to ensure their privacy which... I'm not much of an author, but a powerful wizard trying to relate a secret should really settle things with 1-3 spells. 30 goes past "expert in security", past "paranoid" and into purely ineffectual.
Actually, the rule is "don't turn into a giant snake. It never helps". No one bothers to explain what exactly is the advantage (except for the contrived specific set of circumstances below) that's worth risking going to Azkaban.
Good thing we never bothered to explain how and why Parselmouths work, so that this doesn't directly contradict anything.
This is actually getting into the central conflict of the story, such as it. It only took us 50 chapters to start moving towards it.

Why exactly did he decide that snakes talk like cavemen? Snakes are quite erudite in the books. And even if they were too stupid to speak with proper grammar, why would that cause Harry and Quirrell to stop doing so?

# ? Jun 27, 2017 01:47

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Stroth posted:

Why exactly did he decide that snakes talk like cavemen? Snakes are quite erudite in the books. And even if they were too stupid to speak with proper grammar, why would that cause Harry and Quirrell to stop doing so?

Apparently Yud decided that snakes do have a language, with it's own lovely syntax, grammar, and vocabulary. The last one, at least, is explicitly confirmed with "there's no word for X in snake".

# ? Jun 27, 2017 06:12

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Xander77 posted:

Apparently Yud decided that snakes do have a language, with it's own lovely syntax, grammar, and vocabulary. The last one, at least, is explicitly confirmed with "there's no word for X in snake".

Please tell me he Sapir-Whorfs it up and/or attempts to reverse-engineer the development of snakese from the vocabulary and grammar

# ? Jun 27, 2017 07:17

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Tunicate posted:

Please tell me he Sapir-Whorfs it up and/or attempts to reverse-engineer the development of snakese from the vocabulary and grammar

Kinda? We get "you can't lie in snakese", but it's only introduced so that Quirrelmort can manipulate Harriezer with absolute sincerity.

# ? Jun 27, 2017 12:19

bewilderment: Nov 22, 2007; man what

Speaking of, if anyone wants to read a novel by a good author that talks about languages that can't be lied in, Embassytown by China Mieville is really really good.

# ? Jun 28, 2017 04:48

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 51: Title Redacted, Pt 1

quote:

Harry had run into trouble falling asleep Friday night, which he had anticipated might happen, and so he had decided to take the obvious advance precaution of buying a sleeping potion; and to prevent it from constituting a visible sign that he was nervous, he had decided to buy it off Fred and George a couple of months earlier. (Be prepared, that's the Boy Scout's marching song...)

Thus Harry was fully rested, and his pouch contained almost everything which he owned and might conceivably need. Harry had, in fact, run into the volume limitation on the pouch; and keeping in mind that he would need to store a large snake, and might need to store who-knew-what-else, he had removed some of the bulkier items, like the car battery. He was up to the point now where he could Transfigure something the size of a car battery in four minutes flat, so it wasn't much of a loss.

Harry had kept the emergency flares and the oxyacetylene welding torch and fuel tank, since you couldn't just Transfigure things that were to be burned.

(Be prepared, as through life you march along...)

Can you imagine how quicky Harriezer would be kicked out of a disciplined, cooperative, outdoorman-ey "jock"-ey group like the boyscouts?

quote:

Professor Quirrell finished his Charms -

- stood up from his chair -

- blurred into a green snake, banded in blue and white -

- hissed, "Hungry, boy? Eat your fill sswiftly, we sshall need both sstrength and time."

Harry's eyes were a bit wide, but he hissed, "I ate well at breakfasst," and then rapidly began forking noodles into his mouth.

The snake watched him for a moment, with those flat eyes, and then hissed, "Do not wissh to explain here. Prefer to be elssewhere firsst. Need to leave unobsserved, without ssign we have ever departed room."

"Sso no one can track uss," hissed Harry.

"Yess. Do you trusst me that much, boy? Think before ansswer. I will have important requesst of you, which requiress trusst; if ssay no regardlesss, then ssay no now."

Harry dropped his gaze from the snake's flat eyes, and looked back down at his sauce-coated noodles, and ate another bite, then another, while he thought.

The Defense Professor... was an ambiguous figure, to put it mildly; Harry thought he had unraveled some of his goals, but others remained mysterious.

But Professor Quirrell had knocked down two hundred girls to stop the ones summoning Harry. Professor Quirrell had deduced that the Dementor was draining Harry through his wand. The Defense Professor had saved Harry's life, twice, in a two-week period.

Which could mean that the Defense Professor was just saving Harry for later, that there were ulterior motives. Indeed, it was certain that there were ulterior motives. Professor Quirrell wasn't doing this on a whim. But then Professor Quirrell had also seen Harry taught Occlumency, he had taught Harry how to lose... if the Defense Professor wanted to make some use of Harry Potter, it was a use that required a strengthened Harry Potter, not a weakened one. That was what it meant to be used by a friend, that they would want the use to make you stronger instead of weaker.

And if there was sometimes a cold atmosphere about the Defense Professor, bitterness in his voice or emptiness in his gaze, then Harry was the only one who Professor Quirrell allowed to see it.

Harry didn't quite know how to describe in words the sense of kinship he felt with Professor Quirrell, except to say that the Defense Professor was the only clear-thinking person Harry had met in the wizarding world. Sooner or later everyone else started playing Quidditch, or not putting protective shells on their time machines, or thinking that Death was their friend. It didn't matter how good their intentions were. Sooner or later, and usually sooner, they demonstrated that something deep inside their brain was confused. Everyone except Professor Quirrell. It was a bond that went beyond anything of debts owed, or even anything of personal liking, that the two of them were alone in the wizarding world. And if the Defense Professor occasionally seemed a little scary or a little Dark, well, that was just the same thing some people said about Harry.

"I trusst you," hissed Harry.

And the snake explained the first stage of the plan.

It's really not that complex, except the author wants to impress us. Quirrelmort turns into a snake, and Harriezer carries him out under the cloak, into a different secure location, 6 hours before they entered.

quote:

Step twelve.

Harry waited in silence while the Defense Professor recited thirty Charms.

"All right," Professor Quirrell said calmly, when he had finished. "If anyone is still watching us now, we are in any case doomed, so I will speak plainly and in human form. Parseltongue does not quite suit me, I fear, as I am neither a descendant of Salazar nor a true snake."

Harry nodded.

"So, Mr. Potter," said Professor Quirrell. His gaze intent, his pale blue eyes dark and shadowed in the white light coming from Harry's wand. "We are alone and unobserved, and I have an important question to ask you."

"Go ahead," said Harry, his heart starting to beat faster.

"What is your opinion of the government of magical Britain?"

That wasn't quite what Harry had been expecting, but it was close enough, so Harry said, "Based on my limited knowledge, I would say that both the Ministry and the Wizengamot appear to be stupid, corrupt, and evil."

"Correct," Professor Quirrell said. "Do you understand why I ask?"

Harry took a deep breath, and looked Professor Quirrell straight in the eyes, unflinching. Harry had finally worked out that the way to make amazing deductions from scanty evidence was to know the answer in advance, and he had guessed this answer fully a week ago. It needed only a slight adjustment...

"You are about to invite me to join a secret organization full of interesting people like yourself," said Harry, "one of whose goals is to reform or overthrow the government of magical Britain, and yes, I'm in."

There was a slight pause.

"I'm afraid that is not quite where I intended to direct this conversation," said Professor Quirrell. The corners of his lips were twitching slightly. "I merely planned to ask for your help in doing something extremely treasonous and illegal."

Darn, thought Harry. Still, Professor Quirrell hadn't denied it... "Go on."

"Before I do," said Professor Quirrell. There was no levity in his voice, now. "Are you open to such requests, Mr. Potter? I say again that if you are likely to say no regardless, you must say no now. If your curiosity impels you otherwise, squash it."

"Treasonous and illegal doesn't bother me," said Harry. "Risks bother me and the stakes would need to be commensurate, but I can't imagine you taking risks frivolously."

...

quote:

"Mr. Potter, the central branch of Gringotts is guarded by every spell high and low that the goblins know. Even so those vaults have been successfully robbed; for what wizardry can do, wizardry can undo. And yet no one has ever escaped from Azkaban. No one. For every Charm there is a counter-Charm, for every ward there is a bypass. How can it be that no one has ever been rescued from Azkaban?"

"Because Azkaban has something invincible," Harry said. "Something so terrible that no one can defeat it."

That was the keystone of their perfect security, it had to be, nothing human. It was Death that guarded Azkaban.

"The Dementors don't like their meals being taken away from them," Professor Quirrell said. Coldness had entered that voice, now. "They know if anyone tries. There are more than a hundred Dementors there, and they speak to the guards as well. It's that simple, Mr. Potter. If you're a powerful wizard then Azkaban isn't hard to enter, and it isn't hard to leave. So long as you don't try to take anything out of it that belongs to the Dementors."

"But the Dementors are not invincible," said Harry. He could have cast the Patronus Charm with that thought, in that very moment. "Never believe that they are."

...

"There is an innocent person in Azkaban," Professor Quirrell said.

Harry nodded, there was a burning sensation in his throat, but he didn't cry.

"The one of whom I speak was not under the Imperius Curse," said the Defense Professor, dark robes silhouetted against a greater shadow. "There are surer ways to break wills than the Imperius, if you have the time for torture, and Legilimency, and rituals of which I will not speak. I cannot tell you how I know this, how I know any of this, cannot hint at it even to you, you will have to trust me. But there is a person in Azkaban who never once chose to serve the Dark Lord, who has spent years suffering alone in the most terrible cold and darkness imaginable, and never deserved a single minute of it."

Harry saw it in a single leap of intuition, his mouth racing almost ahead of his thoughts.

There was no hint, no warning, we all thought -

"A person by the name of Black," Harry said.

There was silence. Silence, while the pale blue eyes stared at him.

"Well," said Professor Quirrell after a while. "So much for not telling you the name until after you had accepted the mission. I would ask whether you're reading my mind, but that's flatly impossible."

Harry said nothing, but it was simple enough if you believed in the processes of modern democracy. The most obvious person in Azkaban to be innocent was the one who hadn't gotten a trial -

"I am certainly impressed, Mr. Potter," said Professor Quirrell. His face was grave. "But this is a serious matter, and if there is some way others could make the same deduction, I must know. So tell me, Mr. Potter. How in the name of Merlin, of Atlantis, and the void between the stars, did you guess that I was talking about Bellatrix?"

Probably the most successful cliff-hanger ending thus far.

# ? Jun 28, 2017 06:59

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 52: The Stanford Prison Experiment, Pt 2

quote:

The adrenaline was already flowing in Harry's veins, his heart already hammering in his chest, there in that darkened and bankrupt store. Professor Quirrell had finished explaining, and in one hand, Harry held a tiny wooden twig that would be the key. This was it, this was the day and the moment when Harry started acting the part. His first true adventure, a dungeon to be pierced, an evil government to be defied, a maiden in distress to be rescued. Harry should have been more frightened, more reluctant, but instead he felt only that it was time and past time to start becoming the people he had read about in his books; to begin his journey toward what he had always known he was meant to be, a hero. To take the first step on the road that led to Kimball Kinnison and Captain Picard and Liono of Thundera and definitely not Raistlin Majere. So far as Harry's brain knew from watching early morning cartoons, when you grew up you were supposed to gain amazing powers and save the universe, that was what Harry's brain had seen adults doing and adopted as its role model for the maturation process, and Harry very much wanted to start growing up.

And if the pattern of the story called for the hero to lose some part of his innocence, as the result of his first adventure; then for now, at least, in this still-innocent moment, it seemed time and past time for him to experience that pain. Like casting off clothes too small for him; or like finally advancing to the next stage of the game, after being stuck for eleven years on world 3, level 2 of Super Mario Brothers.

Harry had read enough novels to suspect that he wouldn't feel this enthusiastic afterward, so he was enjoying it while it lasted.

1. Everyone grew up on tales of adventure. Nobody had "life as an accountant" as their role model.

2. The gently caress is with that highly specific Mario analogy?

quote:

There was a popping sound as something near Harry disappeared, and then there was no more time for heroic brooding.

Harry's hand snapped the small wooden twig.

A hook yanked motionlessly at Harry's abdomen as the portkey activated, feeling like a much harder pull this time than the smaller transports between the Hogwarts grounds and Diagon Alley -

- and dropped him into the middle of a huge roll of thunder dying away, and a lash of cold rain whipping him across the face, the water coating Harry's glasses and blinding him in an instant, turning the world into a blur even as he began to fall toward the raging ocean waves far below.

He had arrived high, high, high above the empty North Sea.

The shock of the blasting storm almost made Harry let go of the broomstick that Professor Quirrell had given him, which would not have been a good idea. It took nearly a full second for Harry to get his wits together and bring his broomstick back up in an easy swoop.

"I'm here," said an unfamiliar voice from a patch of empty air above him; low and gravelly, the voice of the sallow lanky bearded man Professor Quirrell had Polyjuiced into before Disillusioning himself and his broomstick.

"I'm here," Harry said from beneath the Cloak of Invisibility. He hadn't used Polyjuice himself. Wearing a different body hindered your magic, and Harry might need all of his little magic about him; thus the plan called for Harry to stay invisible at nearly all times, instead of Polyjuicing.

(Neither of them had spoken the other's name. You simply didn't use your names at any point during an illegal mission, even invisibly hovering over an anonymous patch of water in the North Sea. You simply didn't. It would be stupid.)

...

quote:

He was surrounded by wind and rain, it might have been five degrees Celsius if he was lucky; he'd already had a Warming Charm cast on himself just from being outside in February, but it wasn't standing up to the driving cold droplets. Worse than snow, the rain soaked into every exposed surface. The Cloak of Invisibility turned all of you invisible, but it didn't cover all of you, and that meant it didn't protect all of you from rain. Harry's face was exposed to the full force of the driven water, and it was driving straight into his neck and soaking down into his shirt, also the sleeves of his robes and the cuffs of his pants and his shoes, the water took every bit of cloth as an avenue to sneak in.

99% convinced that waterproofing is a simple existing spell within the Potterverse. Even if there isn't a canonical example, easy waterproofing is exactly the sort of thing Potter magic does.

quote:

"I can already feel the Dementors," said the gravelly voice of the Polyjuiced Quirrell. "I did not expect that, not this soon."

"Think of the stars," Harry said, over a distant rumble of thunder. "Don't allow any anger in you, nothing negative, just think of the stars, what it feels like to forget yourself and fall bodilessly through space. Hold to that thought like an Occlumency barrier across your entire mind. The Dementors will have some trouble reaching past that."

There was silence for a moment, then, "Interesting."

The green spark lifted, and Harry inclined his broomstick slightly upward to follow, even as it steered them into a fogbank, a cloud hovering low on the waters.

Soon they were hovering above and slightly oblique of the huge three-sided metal building, as it loomed far below. The triangle of steel was hollow, not solid, it was a building of three thick solid walls and no center. The Aurors on guard roomed in the top level and southern side of the building, Professor Quirrell had said, protected by their Patronus Charms. The legal entrance into Azkaban was on the roof of the southwest corner of the building. Which the two of them wouldn't use, of course. Instead they would use a corridor that ran directly beneath the northern corner of the building. Professor Quirrell would go down first, and puncture a hole in the roof and its wards right at the northern tip, leaving behind an illusion to cover the gap.

The prisoners were kept in the side of the building, in levels corresponding to their crimes. And at the bottom, in the uttermost center and depth of Azkaban, lay a nest of more than a hundred Dementors. Loads of dirt were occasionally dropped in to keep up the level, as the matter directly exposed to the Dementors broke down into mud and nothingness...

"Wait one minute," said the rough voice, "follow me at speed, and pass through with care."

"Got it," Harry said lowly.

And, let's be fair - Azbakan seems like the sort of prison specifically designed so that the heroes can escape / break someone out of it, and not doing so is a bit of a missed step.

quote:

Descending through the illusory roof while invisible was a strange experience, and then Harry found himself in a metal corridor lighted with a dim orange light - which, Harry realized after a startled glance, was coming from an old-fashioned mantled gas lamp...

...for magic would fail, be drained away after a time, in the presence of Dementors.

Harry dismounted his broom.

...

"Casst your Patronuss," hissed a snake from the floor, looking more discolored than green in the dim orange light.

The note of stress came through even in Parseltongue. Harry was surprised; Professor Quirrell had said that Animagi in their Animagus forms were much less vulnerable to Dementors. (For the same reason the Patronuses were animals, Harry assumed.) If Professor Quirrell was in this much trouble in his snake form, what had been happening to him while he was in the human form that let him use his magic...?

Harry's wand was already rising in his hand.

This would be the beginning.

Even if it was only one person, just one person that he could save from the darkness, even if he wasn't powerful enough yet to teleport all of Azkaban's prisoners to safety and burn the triangular hell down to bedrock...

Even so it was a start, it was a beginning, it was a down payment on everything that Harry meant to accomplish with his life. No more waiting, no more hoping, no more mere promising, it would all begin here. Here and now.

quote:

They went down, and down, and down, passing gas lamp after gas lamp, and the occasional huge metal door, descending into Azkaban within what seemed like utter silence. Professor Quirrell had set up some type of barrier by which he could hear what went on nearby, but no sounds could pass outward, and no sounds could reach Harry.

Harry hadn't quite been able to stop his mind from wondering why the silence, or stop his mind from giving the answer. The answer he'd already known on some wordless level of anticipation that had prompted him to futilely try not to think about it.

Somewhere behind those huge metal doors, people were screaming.

The silver humanoid figure wavered, brightening and dimming, every time Harry thought about it.

Harry had been told to cast a Bubble-Head Charm on himself. To prevent himself from smelling anything.

All the enthusiasm and heroism had worn off already, as Harry had known it would, it hadn't taken long even by his standards, the process had completed itself the very first time they passed one of those metal doors. Every metal door was locked with a huge lock, a lock of simple unmagical metal that wouldn't have stopped a first-year Hogwarts student - if you still had a wand, if you still had your magic, which the prisoners didn't. Those metal doors were not the doors of individual cells, Professor Quirrell had said, each one opened into a corridor in which there would be a group of cells. Somehow that helped a little, not thinking that each door corresponded directly to a prisoner who was waiting right behind it. Instead there might be more than one prisoner, which diminished the emotional impact; just like the study showing that people contributed more when they were told that a given amount of money was required to save one child's life, than when told the same total amount was needed to save eight children...

Harry was finding it increasingly hard not to think about it, and every time he did, the light of his Patronus fluctuated.

They came to the place where the passageway turned left, at the corner of the triangular building. Once again there were descending metal steps, another flight of stairs; once again they went down.

Mere murderers were not put into the lowest of cells. There was always a lower place you could go, an even worse punishment to fear. No matter how low you had already sunk, the government of magical Britain had some threat remaining against you if you did even worse.

But Bellatrix Black had been the Death Eater who inspired more fear than anyone save Lord Voldemort himself, a beautiful and deadly sorceress absolutely loyal to her master; she had been, if such a thing were possible, more sadistic and evil even than You-Know-Who, as though she were trying to outdo her master...

...that was what the world knew of her, what the world believed of her.

But before then, Professor Quirrell had told Harry, before the debut of the Dark Lord's most terrible servant, there had been a girl in Slytherin who had been quiet, keeping mostly to herself, harming no one. Afterward there had been made-up stories told about her, memories changing in retrospect (Harry knew well the research on that). But at the time, while she still attended school, the most talented witch in Hogwarts had been known as a gentle girl (Professor Quirrell had said). Her few friends had been surprised when she'd joined the Death Eaters, and more surprised that she'd been hiding so much darkness behind that sad, wistful smile.

That was who Bellatrix had once been, the most promising witch of her own generation, before the Dark Lord stole her and broke her, shattered her and reshaped her, binding her to him on a deeper level and with darker arts than any Imperius.

Ten years Bellatrix had served the Dark Lord, killing who he bade her kill, torturing who he bade her torture.

And then the Dark Lord had finally been defeated.

And Bellatrix's nightmare had continued.

Somewhere inside Bellatrix there might be something that was still screaming, that had been screaming the whole time, something a psychiatric Healer could bring back; or there might not be, Professor Quirrell had no way of knowing. But either way, they could...

...they could at least get her out of Azkaban...

Bellatrix Black had been put into the lowest level of Azkaban.

Once again, let us be fair. Within the established world of HPMOR, and with Harriezer's established personality, rescuing even a single person from Azkaban, even without being convinced of their innocence, is reasonable.

What Harriezer should really be asking, is what Quirrel gets out of it.

quote:

The first cell Harry looked at contained a dessicated corpse, skin gone grey and mottled, flesh worn through in places to expose the bone beneath, no eyes -

Harry shut his eyes. He could still do that, he was still invisible, he wasn't betraying anything by shutting his eyes.

He'd known it already, he'd read it on page six of his Transfiguration book, that you stayed in Azkaban until your prison term was done. If you died before it was up they kept you there until they released your corpse. If your term was for life, they just left the body in the cell until the cell was needed, at which point they threw your body into the Dementors' pit. But it was still a shock to see, that corpse had been a person who'd just been left there -

The light in the room wavered.

Steady, thought Harry in his core. It wouldn't be good for Professor Quirrell if that Patronus went out from his thinking sad thoughts. This near to the Dementors the Defense Professor might just fall dead where he stood. Steady, Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, steady!

With that thought, Harry opened his eyes again, there wasn't time to waste.

The second cell he looked at contained only a skeleton.

And behind the bars of the third cell he saw Bellatrix Black.

Something precious and irreplaceable inside Harry withered like dry grass.

You could tell the woman wasn't a skeleton, that her head wasn't a skull, because the texture of skin was still different from the texture of bone, no matter how white and pale she'd become, waiting in the dark alone. Either they weren't feeding her much, or what she ate, the shadows of Death drained from her; for her eyes seemed shrunken below their lids, her lips looked too shriveled to close over her teeth. The color seemed leached out of the black clothing she had worn into prison, like the Dementors had drained that too. They'd been meant to be daring, those clothes, and now they lay loosely over a skeleton, exposing shriveled skin.

I'm here to save her, I'm here to save her, I'm here to save her, Harry thought to himself, desperately, over and over with an effort like Occlumency, willing his Patronus not to go out, to stay and protect Bellatrix from the Dementors -

In his heart, in his core, Harry held to all his pity and his compassion, his will to save her from the darkness; the silver radiance coming in through the open door brightened, even as he thought it.

And in another part of him, like he was just letting another part of his mind carry out a habit without paying much attention to it...

A cold expression came over Harry's face, invisibly beneath the hood.

"Hello, my dear Bella," said a chill whisper. "Did you miss me?"

Another decent cliffhanger.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 08:07

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

Xander77 posted:

99% convinced that waterproofing is a simple existing spell within the Potterverse. Even if there isn't a canonical example, easy waterproofing is exactly the sort of thing Potter magic does.

Impervius. They use it all the time.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 16:45

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

MikeJF posted:

Impervius. They use it all the time.

But Harry doesn't, in first year; he lets Hermione do it to his glasses halfway through a game when he couldn't see in the rain, because it hadn't occurred to him to do it himself.

# ? Jul 2, 2017 00:55

Mazerunner: Apr 22, 2010; Good Hunter, what... what is this post?

Prism posted:

But Harry doesn't, in first year; he lets Hermione do it to his glasses halfway through a game when he couldn't see in the rain, because it hadn't occurred to him to do it himself.

cause Harry's a goober who just does the minimum, Hermione's an over-achiever who looked ahead for useful or neat things

Elizarry should be like Hermione, just gobbling up every spell and tidbit of information he can get his hands on, but he'd prefer to wank off over how smart he is.

# ? Jul 2, 2017 01:25

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Mazerunner posted:

cause Harry's a goober who just does the minimum, Hermione's an over-achiever who looked ahead for useful or neat things

Elizarry should be like Hermione, just gobbling up every spell and tidbit of information he can get his hands on, but he'd prefer to wank off over how smart he is.

To him, someone who has to work at it isn't actually smart.

# ? Jul 2, 2017 01:33

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

Really, Yud missed his chance at glory by being born long after the American Technocracy stuff was en vogue in the 1930s. He woulda killed to be a Technocrat.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

Be a politician but your excuse is you're smarter than everybody else, so you get to run things! Think of all the intellectual slack-wanking he could have dreamed of.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 02:16

Lansoc: Jan 3, 2009; she had tiny Italian boobs.
Well that's my story.

bewilderment posted:

Speaking of, if anyone wants to read a novel by a good author that talks about languages that can't be lied in, Embassytown by China Mieville is really really good.

Great book... anything by China Mieville is a good read.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 03:21

Crazy Joe Wilson: Jul 4, 2007; Justifiably Mad!

Just curious, but is there still an active Harry Potter thread in this subforum about the canon books?

# ? Jul 3, 2017 12:44

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 53: The Stanford Prison Experiment, Pt 3

quote:

The corpse of a woman opened her eyes, and the dull sunken orbs gazed out at nothing.

"Mad," Bellatrix muttered in a cracked voice, "It seems that little Bella is going mad..."

Professor Quirrell had instructed Harry, calmly and precisely, how he was to act in Bellatrix's presence; how to form the pretense he would maintain in his mind.

You found it expedient, or perhaps just amusing, to make Bellatrix fall in love with you, to bind her to your service.

That love would have persisted through Azkaban, Professor Quirrell had said, because to Bellatrix it would not be a happy thought.

She loves you utterly, completely, with her whole being. You do not return her love, but consider her useful. She knows this.

She was the deadliest weapon you possessed, and you called her your dear Bella.

Harry remembered it from the night the Dark Lord killed his parents: the cold amusement, the contemptuous laughter, that high-pitched voice of deathly hate. It didn't seem at all difficult to guess what the Dark Lord would say.

"I hope you are not mad, Bella dear," said the chill whisper. "Mad is not useful."

Bellatrix's eyes flickered, tried to focus on empty air.

"My... Lord... I waited for you but you did not come... I looked for you but I could not find you... you are alive..." All her words came out in a low mutter, if there was emotion in it, Harry could not tell.

"Sshow her your face," hissed the snake at Harry's feet.

Harry cast back the hood of the Cloak of Invisibility.

The part of him that Harry had placed in control of his facial expressions looked at Bella without the slightest trace of pity, only cool, calm interest. (While in his core, Harry thought, I will save you, I will save you no matter what...)

"The scar..." muttered Bellatrix. "That child..."

"So they all still think," said Harry's voice, and gave a thin little chuckle. "You looked for me in the wrong place, Bella dear."

(Harry had asked why Professor Quirrell couldn't be the one to play the part of the Dark Lord, and Professor Quirrell had pointed out that there was no plausible reason for him to be possessed by the shade of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.)

...

"Your wand," murmured Bellatrix, "I took it from the Potters' house and hid it, my lord... under the tombstone to the right of your father's grave... will you kill me, now, if that was all you wished of me... I think I must have always wanted you to be the one to kill me... but I can't remember now, it must have been a happy thought..."

Harry's heart wrenched inside him, it was unbearable, and - and he couldn't cry, couldn't let his Patronus fade -

Harry's face showed a flicker of annoyance, and his voice was sharp as it said, "Enough foolishness. You're to come with me, Bella dear, unless you prefer the company of the Dementors."

Bellatrix's face twitched in brief puzzlement, the shrunken limbs did not stir.

"You'll need to float her out," Harry hissed to the snake. "Sshe can no longer think of esscaping."

"Yess," hissed the snake, "but do not underesstimate her, sshe wass the deadliesst of warriorss." The green head dipped in warning. "One would be wisse to fear me, boy, even were I sstarved and nine-tenthss dead; be wary of her, allow no ssingle flaw in your pretensse."

Quirrelmort pretends to be a servant of the Dark Lord.

quote:

The cringing servant opened the door to Bellatrix's cage, and pulled a tiny needle from his robes with which he poked the human skeleton. The single drop of red blood produced was soon absorbed into a small doll, which was laid upon the floor, and the servant began to chant in a whisper.

Soon another living skeleton lay upon the floor, motionless. Afterward the servant seemed to hesitate for a moment, until from the empty air hissed an impatient command. Then the servant pointed his wand at Bellatrix and spoke a word, and the living skeleton lying on the bed was naked, and the skeleton lying on the floor was clothed in her faded dress.

...

arlier, in the deserted shop, Professor Quirrell had told Harry that they were going to commit the perfect crime.

Harry had unthinkingly started to repeat back the standard proverb that there was no such thing as a perfect crime, before he actually thought about it for two-thirds of a second, remembered a wiser proverb, and shut his mouth in midsentence.

What do you think you know, and how do you think you know it?

If you did commit the perfect crime, nobody would ever find out - so how could anyone possibly know that there weren't perfect crimes?

And as soon as you looked at it that way, you realized that perfect crimes probably got committed all the time, and the coroner marked it down as death by natural causes, or the newspaper reported that the shop had never been very profitable and had finally gone out of business...

When Bellatrix Black's corpse was found dead in her cell the next morning, there within the prison of Azkaban from which (everyone knew) no one had ever escaped, nobody bothered doing an autopsy. Nobody thought twice about it. They just locked up the corridor and left, and the Daily Prophet reported it in the obituary column the next day...

...that was the perfect crime which Professor Quirrell had planned.

And it wasn't Professor Quirrell who screwed it up.

Do we know what condition Bellatrix and other prisoners of Azkaban were canonically found in? Shouldn't they be better in a universe where souls are not a thing?

# ? Jul 4, 2017 17:33

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

"We built a super-secure prison and don't bother to make basic checks to see if our prisoners' corpses are just Transfigured fakes." Mind you, the canon version isn't much better about it.

# ? Jul 5, 2017 04:16

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Xander77 posted:

Do we know what condition Bellatrix and other prisoners of Azkaban were canonically found in? Shouldn't they be better in a universe where souls are not a thing?

A bunch of people (including Sirius and Bellatrix) escape from Azkaban and don't seem to be too much the worse for wear. It's definitely a very unpleasant place, but not even close to as bad as it is in this version.

# ? Jul 5, 2017 05:16

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Liquid Communism posted:

"We built a super-secure prison and don't bother to make basic checks to see if our prisoners' corpses are just Transfigured fakes." Mind you, the canon version isn't much better about it.

Just wait until we actually get the detailed security arrangements. They jump schizophrenically between "this is the ultimate in Auror safeguards, and our heroes are totally ~~cool~~ rational at dealing with it" and "anyone can just walk in and out, no problem".

# ? Jul 5, 2017 07:01

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Tiggum posted:

A bunch of people (including Sirius and Bellatrix) escape from Azkaban and don't seem to be too much the worse for wear. It's definitely a very unpleasant place, but not even close to as bad as it is in this version.

Sirius at least was partially protected by turning into a dog, since dementors don't work so well on animals.

# ? Jul 5, 2017 07:24

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# ? May 20, 2024 23:45

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

The three people main we see who spent a fair bit of time in Azkaban (Sirius, Bellatrix, and Barty Crouch Junior) all seem somewhat unhinged, although they might have been like that going in. Hagrid's stay was much shorter and he described it like this:

quote:

"An' them dementors make me feel ruddy terrible an' all," said Hagrid, with a shudder. "Gotta walk past 'em ev'ry time I want a drink in The Three Broomsticks. 'S like bein' back in Azkaban -"
He fell silent, gulping his tea. Harry, Ron, and Hermione watched him breathlessly. They had never heard Hagrid talk about his brief spell in Azkaban before. After a pause, Hermione said timidly, "Is it awful in there, Hagrid?"
"Yeh've no idea," said Hagrid quietly. "Never bin anywhere like it. Thought I was goin' mad. Kep' goin' over horrible stuff in me mind... the day I got expelled from Hogwarts.. . day me dad died... day I had ter let Norbert go..."
His eyes filled with tears. Norbert was the baby dragon Hagrid had once won in a game of cards.
"Yeh can' really remember who yeh are after a while. An' yeh can' see the point o' livin' at all. I used ter hope I'd jus' die in me sleep... When they let me out, it was like bein' born again, ev'rythin' came floodin' back, it was the bes' feelin' in the world. Mind, the dementors weren't keen on lettin' me go."

Xander77 posted:

Just wait until we actually get the detailed security arrangements. They jump schizophrenically between "this is the ultimate in Auror safeguards, and our heroes are totally ~~cool~~ rational at dealing with it" and "anyone can just walk in and out, no problem".

Not much different from how the Philosopher's Stone was guarded then.

# ? Jul 5, 2017 11:02

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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