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Koramei posted:Religious reasons? Or just personal ones. Autopsies are a pretty disturbing thought to plenty of people. He didn't destroy or deface it, he took it. He took a thing that is openly offered for sale to tourists. We're not even talking about something with a likeness or quote from the Kims on it - this was a generic slogan banner. If he committed any other crime, as the poster I was responding to was saying, it would be hard for it to be less interesting/villainous than poster theft. As for the reasons to doubt the story: The North Korean statements about this seem to be hilariously absurd. The released slam-dunk evidence is a grainy, unidentifiable figure carefully removing a banner from a wall. The reasons to believe it are: The guy had poor judgement because he visited North Korea. The regime, who appear to be at least greatly embellishing events and have a vast history of kidnapping, said he did it. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 16:36
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There's a difference between a poster you buy at a shop and one that's already up. You can buy an American flag at any old gas station, that doesn't mean stealing one off a flag pole is functionally the same thing. Besides, the point is more that neither you nor me really knows the cultural significance a poster like that has; maybe it really is just junk to them too, or maybe (as indicated by them sentencing him to 15 years of hard labor because of this) it's very much not. We're not really in the position to know, but applying our own cultural understanding of the situation to something happening in North Korea is extremely silly.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:03
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Given they had to spice up the story with transparently bullshit church/frat/CIA connections and all that I'm going to say the act of stealing the poster probably didn't look especially heinous to the North Koreans either. The obvious bullshit tacked on also calls into doubt the validity of the poster theft claim itself.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:11
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I think you're making a pretty massive leap there But I also don't think this is worth arguing about really, especially from our positions of not really knowing poo poo all about it. Incidentally, I'm not saying they were right to incarcerate him for it, regardless of the cultural values.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:13
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i mean the poster theft could be covered up really easily too, nobody would know except for a couple of people who'd know to shut the gently caress up
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Jun 23, 2017 17:13
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I bet Kim and the NKs are laughing their rear end off at our Navy collision.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:14
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Koramei posted:There's a difference between a poster you buy at a shop and one that's already up. You can buy an American flag at any old gas station, that doesn't mean stealing one off a flag pole is functionally the same thing. Besides, the point is more that neither you nor me really knows the cultural significance a poster like that has; maybe it really is just junk to them too, or maybe (as indicated by them sentencing him to 15 years of hard labor because of this) it's very much not. We're not really in the position to know, but applying our own cultural understanding of the situation to something happening in North Korea is extremely silly. Or, someone somewhere up the Best Korean chain of command decided it was time to show the perfidious Americans who is boss and just made an example of the first guy he could grab on a flimsy pretext.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:16
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Yeah, my hunch is some people lower down got carried away and the whole thing spiraling out into nonsense is because everyone else has been trying to do damage control and have no loving idea how.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:20
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All it comes down to is the usual North Korea discussion dilemma: there's absolutely no reliable proof either for or against the claim, so it's essentially impossible to debate, because everyone just projects their own biases onto it and pulls a story out of their rear end, which they then defend with a downright religious fervor.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:27
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My thought was, when they handed down that 15 year sentence it was not their intention to have him serve the entire term; rather they wanted to keep him on hand for leverage if needed in the next ~5.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:40
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Koramei posted:We're not really in the position to know, but applying our own cultural understanding of the situation to something happening in North Korea is extremely silly. You can add or subtract whatever parts you like; there's no version of the story that makes sense, and that doesn't depend much on cultural understanding of North Korea.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:47
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When Otto was originally arrested, North Korea told us it was at airport customs getting ready to leave North Korea, and it was for "a hostile act": http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/22/asia/north-korea-american-student/index.html At the end of February he was brought out for a press conference and read this statement: http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/28/asia/north-korea-otto-warmbier/index.html "I committed the crime of taking down a political slogan from the staff holding area of the Yanggakdo International Hotel. I apologize to each and every one of the millions of the Korean people, and I beg that you see how I was used and manipulated, My reward for my crime was so much smaller than the rewards that the Z Society and the Friendship United Methodist Church get from the United States administration. I never, never should have allowed myself to be lured by the United States administration to commit a crime in this country. I wish that the United States administration never manipulate people like myself in the future to commit crimes against foreign countries. I entirely beg you, the people and government of the DPRK, for your forgiveness. Please! I made the worst mistake of my life!" Some similar cases: Kenneth Bae/Pae Jun Ho was detained in November 2012, and sentenced in April 2013 for "committing hostile acts". Later on, North Korea would say he "committed serious crimes" and then eventually said he was spreading Christianity through the tour groups he was running. He got released in November 2014. Jeffrey Fowle was arrested in June 2014 for leaving a bible in a restaurant as part of a tour group. He was accused of "committing hostile acts" but never actually sentenced. He got released in late October 2014. Halloween Jack posted:Otto Warmbier stole a poster, which he could have purchased for a trivial sum, at the behest of a friend, who could have purchased it online for somewhat more, who was part of a church group, which was CIA, in exchange for a car worth $10,000, and to impress his friends in a not-really-secret UVA social club. I don't see what part of "college bro thinks sneaking into hotel employee area to steal a poster is a thing to do to gently caress around" doesn't make sense though? Even one of his douche friends at home being like "it'd be cool if you stole a poster on your trip" makes sense. That's the sort of thing that would happen. It's just the "also the CIA church gangster computer god is involved" that's clearly bull.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:53
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i knew it was a methodist plot
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Jun 23, 2017 18:03
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Yeah, but it makes just as much sense that he didn't do it and the country with a lengthy history of kidnapping people just found a flimsy excuse to kidnap him. I figured he had done it, too. But at this point every claim the North Koreans have made that can be critically examined by an outsider seems to be utter bullshit, so I have a bit of doubt about it now. I don't see the point of giving the NK government the benefit of the doubt after they start obviously lying about the matter.
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Jun 23, 2017 18:13
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Xibanya posted:My thought was, when they handed down that 15 year sentence it was not their intention to have him serve the entire term; rather they wanted to keep him on hand for leverage if needed in the next ~5. the only time us diplomats sit down with the dprk is in prisoner release negotiations. what you've said is true for every detained american
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Jun 23, 2017 18:19
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Of course they're lying about it. The charges and video were obviously meant for internal consumption, and were at the very least trumped up if not entirely fabricated. It's difficult to draw any conclusion from that, though, because the regime would likely do that even if he had actually done something he shouldn't.
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Jun 23, 2017 18:23
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Do people think they really did whatever to happened to him as a "warning" or something, though? It must have been some sort of freak occasion spurred by negligence because isn't it pretty rare for them to actually hurt prisoners, especially that badly?
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Jun 23, 2017 18:29
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Fiction posted:Do people think they really did whatever to happened to him as a "warning" or something, though? It must have been some sort of freak occasion spurred by negligence because isn't it pretty rare for them to actually hurt prisoners, especially that badly? Western prisoners, at least.
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Jun 23, 2017 18:32
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One of the big problems with interpreting anything that the North does is that so much of what they do and say on the world stage is actually meant for internal consumption, even if the comments are ostensibly directed at another country. In this case, it's really hard to puzzle out what happened and why, because unlike threatening to rain hellfire down upon the U.S. or arresting undercover missionaries, the true motive for locking him up is not at all clear. There doesn't seem to be much that the North had to gain from arresting him and it would be entirely foreseeable that arresting him would have a chilling effect on their tourism business, which is an important source of hard currency. I think it's likely that he did some small, nearly-harmless thing after which things got out of control internally in the North. I'm of two minds regarding what that event actually was. First, and I think most likely, he and his handlers got apocalyptically drunk and in his stupor, he decided to go steal a poster. Security catches him on the floor after someone reports an American clumsily trying to take the poster, and they take him back to his room, give him a stern warning, and he wakes up the next day knowing he did something bad, but not really thinking there would be consequences. His handlers, being literally too inebriated to stop him, do their best to hush it up, but sometime around when he's going to the airport, word of what happened reaches someone both high up and for whom an American having unmonitored access to a restricted area could be politically damaging, so in a hasty move, orders that he be detained. From there, it spirals out of control, since they can't just release him and admit they were wrong, he eventually takes a beating that puts him in a coma or attempts suicide and ends up in a coma, and so we then end up where we are now. Second, I think it's possible that he did some low-level, impromptu proselytizing to one of the tour people that he made friends with, perhaps giving them a Bible that he may have brought along, and then either that person is caught with the Bible or reports him themselves. I base this solely on his church featuring in his forced public confession, which is an odd detail to shoehorn in but could be enough to let the internal audience know exactly what he's in for. From there, a beating or suicide attempt gets us to where we are now. We likely won't know, though, until someone high enough up defects and we hear about it from them.
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Jun 23, 2017 19:05
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Honestly I have no basis for this but he might have hosed up a suicide attempt and that led to his being brain dead and his captors going "gently caress, uhh lets release him"
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Jun 23, 2017 19:06
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Azathoth posted:Second, I think it's possible that he did some low-level, impromptu proselytizing to one of the tour people that he made friends with, perhaps giving them a Bible that he may have brought along, and then either that person is caught with the Bible or reports him themselves.
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Jun 23, 2017 19:19
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if the dprk wanted warmbier to die they would have let him, or killed him. they also would have done the same to kenneth bae instead of keeping him alive while he was hospitalized, with doctors and everything
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Jun 23, 2017 19:31
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R. Guyovich posted:if the dprk wanted warmbier to die they would have let him, or killed him. they also would have done the same to kenneth bae instead of keeping him alive while he was hospitalized, with doctors and everything So "overzealous underling trying too hard to cover own rear end and/or spread the ideology" it is?
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Jun 23, 2017 19:43
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Telsa Cola posted:Honestly I have no basis for this but he might have hosed up a suicide attempt and that led to his being brain dead and his captors going "gently caress, uhh lets release him" Either that or getting unlucky with torture methods involving asphyxiation or unconsciousness. But yeah, it seems like it was a mistake to effectively kill him. Hostages aren't too useful when you turn them into vegetables.
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Jun 23, 2017 19:47
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Warbadger posted:Either that or getting unlucky with torture methods involving asphyxiation or unconsciousness. But yeah, it seems like it was a mistake to effectively kill him. Hostages aren't too useful when to turn them into vegetables. i read/heard somewhere that it was drugs they used. probaly some Truth serum bullshit. they probaly overdosed him and it hosed his brain super bad.
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Jun 23, 2017 19:49
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i read/heard somewhere that it was drugs they used. probaly some Truth serum bullshit. they probaly overdosed him and it hosed his brain super bad. This sort of groundless speculation is actually making me sympathize with R Guy, which is a fate worse than death.
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Jun 23, 2017 19:55
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:This sort of groundless speculation is actually making me sympathize with R Guy, which is a fate worse than death. Doesn't make me sympathize for tankies or the awful government of the DPRK, but yeah, there is no real way to know what was done (or not done) to put him in the coma.
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Jun 23, 2017 20:00
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Halloween Jack posted:He was Jewish and active in the local Hillel chapter. Jeez, how did I miss that... Oh well, guess I'll double down on drunken misadventure then.
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Jun 23, 2017 20:03
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:This sort of groundless speculation is actually making me sympathize with R Guy, which is a fate worse than death. Tankie posts can't melt teen brains.
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Jun 23, 2017 20:27
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Whatever they did that knocked him into a coma, it didn't happen until over 3 months after he was arrested, because he was clearly talking in his court appearance where he got sentenced just fine as well as the press conference the month before. So keep that in mind when trying to figure out why he ended up all hosed up.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:27
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Perhaps he just reacted poorly to beatings/hard labour? Wasn't his brain damage due to a lack of oxygen following pulmonary failure? I mean, the dude looked relatively healthy, but he kinda gave the impression that he hadn't worked a day or taken a punch in his life. Freaking out under high stress ain't good for you.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:32
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WarpedNaba posted:Perhaps he just reacted poorly to beatings/hard labour? Wasn't his brain damage due to a lack of oxygen following pulmonary failure? I'd be willing to bet that while they didn't intend to kill they thought they could give him a few good beatings and let him heal up. Someone miscalculated and suddenly there is an abundance of vegetables in Best Korea.
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Jun 23, 2017 22:12
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blowfish posted:So "overzealous underling trying too hard to cover own rear end and/or spread the ideology" it is? my guess is he attempted suicide and the coma was a result of that. a botched hanging can leave someone braindead
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Jun 24, 2017 00:08
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of course since he won't be autopsied and war hawks are running with their conspiracy theories of choice guesses are all we have
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Jun 24, 2017 00:09
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It's kind of a heartless thing to say right after he got back but yeah, based on the nothing that we know, I agree. Everyone's leaping to waterboarding or something like that but an attempted suicide right after he found out about his verdict fits the timeline better and frankly makes more sense than the North Koreans torturing the guy practically to death after they'd already got everything they wanted out of him anyway.
Koramei fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 00:17
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it would also explain the botulism story as a cover-up, because "he took a sleeping pill and never woke up" is far more pleasant sounding than "he would rather have died than stayed in our prisons, which are humane as hell by the way"
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Jun 24, 2017 00:30
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R. Guyovich posted:it would also explain the botulism story as a cover-up, because "he took a sleeping pill and never woke up" is far more pleasant sounding than "he would rather have died than stayed in our prisons, which are humane as hell by the way" I long for the days when our mods were a marxoteen from new zealand and an israeli apologist.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:45
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Koramei posted:It's kind of a heartless thing to say right after he got back but yeah, based on the nothing that we know, I agree. Everyone's leaping to waterboarding or something like that but an attempted suicide right after he found out about his verdict fits the timeline better and frankly makes more sense than the North Koreans torturing the guy practically to death after they'd already got everything they wanted out of him anyway. Also kinda heartless to assume the dude attempted suicide rather than dare sully the reputation of the pariah state with an extensive history of human rights abuses who sentenced him to 15 years hard labor for maybe stealing a paper poster (and/or to serve as a hostage), then spread rather blatant lies about him after he became a vegetable while in their care. I mean it is literally blaming the victim. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 00:47
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I think the least likely thing in the North Korea story about his condition, at this point, is that he was in the coma for a whole year plus. I think it's more likely that he only slipped into it recently, which is why they finally contacted the US about it to get him off their hands.
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Jun 24, 2017 01:23
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It'd make sense, but can't they test for that? It seemed to be basically unanimous opinion that the botulism story was bullshit, but I didn't even see the length of his coma get questioned in the articles I read.Warbadger posted:Also kinda heartless to assume the dude attempted suicide Yeah, that's what I was saying was heartless. Also, since you seem to have come to this conclusion, I assure you I have no love for the North Korean regime, lol.
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Jun 24, 2017 01:59
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