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spacegoat posted:Daedleh you and your crew have set the bar too high with KoW. FireFight is such a clusterfuck right now with some deeply broken poo poo that I'm about to drop it. I was able to get Matt's email to answer some rules questions and he was like "shrug, that's the rule. If you wanna house rule something different until we update it with (terrible alternative rule I just suggested) then go for it." Can you give an example?
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Jun 16, 2017 16:17
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Also, funny that they show renders for the wyrm, as I've been working on one for myself since I got my Bones KS order in.      I still have a few small details to add--surface wounds and a couple arrows and/or swords embedded in the chest, and do something more fancy with the base--but he's mostly done enough to show off.
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Jun 16, 2017 16:36
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Atlas Hugged posted:Can you give an example? spacegoat posted:Question about mortars - is anyone else having a hard time against them in Firefight? Matt confirms that that's how it works. Suggests maybe making mortars a restricted unit. My thought is to make Suppressive Fire only count vs Unflinching on wounds, not hits, per Unflinching. We've found a few other niggling issues, but that's been the biggest one for us. If I'm not tabled by the end of turn one I am by turn two.
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Jun 16, 2017 16:49
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Ok that is annoying. Kings of War has similar units, but composition is different so they're limited. I haven't faced anything like that because I don't own them and I play against my own forces.
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Jun 16, 2017 17:30
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Slimnoid posted:Also, funny that they show renders for the wyrm, as I've been working on one for myself since I got my Bones KS order in. This guy is rad. I too am using Bones for my Undead Wyrm: 
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Jun 16, 2017 17:32
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Something like two years ago now Mantic hosed up my order when I wanted their old metal elf dragon. They somehow sent me a Drakon rider in the dragon box. They offered to send me the new plastic dragon as an apology but I actually turned it down in favor of the smaller metal dragon. I'm glad I did, but it's still disheartening to see that their official models keep getting larger.
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Jun 16, 2017 17:49
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Zark the Damned posted:This guy is rad. I've been seriously considering getting that for a Vamp Lord on undead dragon, but I struggle to think of where to put the vampire on that thing. Ideally I'd like a set-up like with the Creature Caster dragon so I can slot the vampire lord I've already painted right there on the basket, but that wouldn't be terribly feasible with Nethyrmaul there.
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Jun 16, 2017 19:51
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Atlas Hugged posted:I'm glad I did, but it's still disheartening to see that their official models keep getting larger.
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Jun 16, 2017 20:31
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Slimnoid posted:I've been seriously considering getting that for a Vamp Lord on undead dragon, but I struggle to think of where to put the vampire on that thing. Ideally I'd like a set-up like with the Creature Caster dragon so I can slot the vampire lord I've already painted right there on the basket, but that wouldn't be terribly feasible with Nethyrmaul there. Nethyrmaul is a vampire, so that could work?
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Jun 16, 2017 20:33
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Nethyrmaul is a vampire, so that could work? Good point.
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Jun 16, 2017 20:52
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Yeah I don't bother with a rider, I just assume he's a powerful enough undead dragon to have the combined stats and abilities of a wyrm + vampire. Good old Dracoliches!
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Jun 16, 2017 23:50
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The Herd seems to have poor ranged options but I'm not sure who to ally with to prop that up. Elves, Nature or possibly Kingdoms of Man? Generally playing 2k so i have 500 points I could devote to allies. Any suggestions?
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Jun 17, 2017 04:15
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Elf shooting is nasty. Go with that.
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Jun 17, 2017 04:23
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So I've been blundering through ASOBH, Otherworld Fantasy and Frostgrave with little joy, and I hear that Mantic is still infact working on their own Fantasy Skirmish game? (I believe it was mentioned in this thread in passing that it had been cancelled) - is this something likely to surface shortly? I'm in no real rush but as my gaming crew appears mostly limited, I've thus far found all Mantic rules to be quite fun. Cheers!
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Jun 17, 2017 09:07
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Southern Heel posted:So I've been blundering through ASOBH, Otherworld Fantasy and Frostgrave with little joy, and I hear that Mantic is still infact working on their own Fantasy Skirmish game? (I believe it was mentioned in this thread in passing that it had been cancelled) - is this something likely to surface shortly? I'm in no real rush but as my gaming crew appears mostly limited, I've thus far found all Mantic rules to be quite fun. Supposed to be a Kickstarter for it later this year, the money from that mainly going to fund new hard plastic troops for a couple new KoW armies. There's a fan made game derived in part from Kings of War called The Star-Struck City that you might want to consider, I've heard it's actually pretty good quote:The Star-Struck City sets players in the sunken ruins of Perditus, formerly known as Casa-Omnicidi. Once, it was a Primavantor city of incredible wealth recently risen from the seabed. Treasure and danger alike await your warbands, as they travel through the waterlogged city in search of the shards of the meteor that struck down the once-mighty port city and drove it beneath the waves.
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Jun 17, 2017 09:28
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Woo, thanks - checking it out now. As for Kickstarter, it might be the first one I ever do? Who knows?!
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Jun 17, 2017 11:49
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I should clarify, the skirmish game for later this year has been described as La Haye Sainte to Kings of War's Waterloo, a Kings of War: Firefight sized game rather than the smaller ones you;re talking about. I think it might be worth Mantic working with these guys to make Star-Struck City into the actual Fantasy Deadzone/not-Necromunda/Mantic Frostgrave game, that we've heard nothing about in some time.
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Jun 17, 2017 12:22
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Oh, well that's a bit dissapointing. I've read through Starstruck City and indeed, it benefits from KoW's very fluid and natural ruleset. The main differences appear to be: - The Nerve values are brought way down and renamed 'Toughness' - Both To-Hit and To-Wound rolls have are exploding 6's - New Rules for climbing (normal movement), jumping (3/6" depnding on advance or at the double) and falling (roll under #"/2 fallen or take damage) - New Rules for fleeing (4/5/6+ to stay, if you have lost 50/70/99% of your warband) There are army lists (of single models) with various points values for every army currently in KoW, a few City-specific skills (most of which just add to the statiline or give a KoW Special rule) and equipment (stats/etc. of which 99% come straight from KoW). I guess if you have single based miniatures, or otherwise heroes - then you'll be fine to just use those. The scenarios are also quite cool :beach landing, no-mans land, deepling horde NPC round-ups, etc., On the downside (and this is maybe a bit nitpicky) I'm not sure that the Starmetal mechanic works, it's certainly very flavourful but adds multiple layers of complexity - finding it, selling X starmetal for Y cost based on Z warband members - or enchanting it, then testing for madness if you bring enchanted starmetal to battle, and various skills around how the enchanted starmetal functions.
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Jun 17, 2017 14:32
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A Mantic writer is putting out his own fantasy warband game through Osprey early next year.
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Jun 17, 2017 15:22
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My Nightmares from the Veer-Myn starter set: 
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Jun 17, 2017 22:51
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Nice space rats. Months I've been searching for my Bjarn Starnafal mini, pulled apart my storage three times trying to find it; was just doing a pass of my display shelf to see if I had any Marauders not in foam to check a colour, and found Bjarn sitting on the shelf, where I'd left him after painting him like a year and a half ago. Because I'm detail oriented 
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Jun 19, 2017 21:04
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Question for the thread: I've assembled everything in my Asterian starter except for one charge glove Cypher whose head I lost (RIP). I'm looking at the expansion, and I realised if I want to expand my dudes to Firefight, I can't take a minimum unit of Black Talons as there's only a single other one in the expansion. What do I do about this?
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Jun 22, 2017 21:35
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The Deleter posted:Question for the thread: I've assembled everything in my Asterian starter except for one charge glove Cypher whose head I lost (RIP). I'm looking at the expansion, and I realised if I want to expand my dudes to Firefight, I can't take a minimum unit of Black Talons as there's only a single other one in the expansion. What do I do about this? At the moment, nothing. If you have one, you can field it as the Asterian special character. Otherwise you buy either enough expansion sets to get to 3 Black Talons or wait until Mantic releases a set for them.
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Jun 22, 2017 21:40
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Balls. Oh well. Don't think I can expand very far past my lunchbox of minis right now anyway, so we'll see.
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Jun 22, 2017 21:44
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Apologies for the double post, but what points values usually get played for Firefight?
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Jun 23, 2017 13:06
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The Firefight Fanatics group has a semi-official poll about what Mantic will be running and 1500pt Firefight is leading by a large margin. IIRC the game sizes break down to 1250pt minimum then into 1000pt increments. I've found 1000pts to be a quick and easy game, FWIW.
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Jun 23, 2017 13:35
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Southern Heel posted:The Firefight Fanatics group has a semi-official poll about what Mantic will be running and 1500pt Firefight is leading by a large margin. IIRC the game sizes break down to 1250pt minimum then into 1000pt increments. I've found 1000pts to be a quick and easy game, FWIW. I was thinking about this and spacegoats's comments this morning and I think the real issue is that some of the Warpath mechanics just don't make sense at the points value the game is designed around. Remember, the only major distinction between Warpath and Firefight is in force construction and unit makeup. A lot of, if not most, units in Firefight are between 3 and 5 models and the recommended points value is 1250 points (though I guess the "community" is pushing for 1500). This doesn't mesh at all with how many Suppression tokens get handed out on a turn or how devastating indirect weapons can be. I think it really highlights how badly Firefight needs to be its own game.
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Jun 23, 2017 15:25
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Yeah, which means we're waiting for a new edition rather than an FAQ/errata. The other thing we're struggling with is assault. Units can Move as a reaction, meaning most of the time they're running away from you unless you want to get close enough to be Engaged first. I get that you want to Ground units and/or use orders first, but on low activation armies like Enforcers it feels like assault is pointless. Anyone want to buy a shitload of Kickstarter Enforcers? 
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Jun 23, 2017 16:39
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Speaking of FAQs, the 1.1 FAQ for Dungeon Saga was just released, for anyone still playing it https://u10049744.dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10049744/dave/DS-CoreRules-FAQ%26Errata-RC-Final-v1.1.pdf
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Jun 23, 2017 16:44
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What kind of issues are in Firefight? It seems like the low-end skirmish game I really want but if the gameplay issues are really strong that kinda dampens my enthusiasm for building my force to reach it.
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Jun 23, 2017 16:46
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The Deleter posted:What kind of issues are in Firefight? It seems like the low-end skirmish game I really want but if the gameplay issues are really strong that kinda dampens my enthusiasm for building my force to reach it. I guess if you're looking for a super robust tournament game then it has problems. The issue with h indirect fire being powerful is very simple to me: "hey let's only use one indirect fire mortar type weapon each, as a maximum?". Honestly we all agree that bulletproof rulesets are ideal, but let's not go throwing our pissjugs out with the piss. I think it's just because mantic got KoW so right that the imperfections with FF are evident.
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Jun 23, 2017 18:25
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Worth remembering too that the KoW ruleset Mantic got so right was the 2nd edition, Firefight and Warpath are basically in their 1st edition.
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Jun 23, 2017 18:34
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NTRabbit posted:Speaking of FAQs, the 1.1 FAQ for Dungeon Saga was just released, for anyone still playing it My group has tried and failed the first four-player scenario in dwarf kings (I think it's "adventure 2"?) three times and that soured them a lot on the game. There simply is not enough time to complete that quest as written, and I'm convinced people claiming to have done it online are playing with modified or misunderstood rules. A competent Mortibris player can effectively jam up the approach to the last room with zombies such that it's not possible to clear it in the ~2 turns needed. The key problems with the scenario are the need to open the lock and the inability to do that in less than two turns, and the need for the dwarf to get to the last room quickly despite being slow and easy to slow down. That bottleneck is just too easy to exploit for the Mortibris player, and so obviously so that choosing not to do it is transparently throwing the game to the adventurer players. It is a bad look - a really, really bad look - for the game to have a basically broken scenario during a "tutorial" introductory adventure intended to introduce the full game. I'm pretty disappointed that this FAQ doesn't address that at all.
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Jun 23, 2017 18:37
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Leperflesh posted:My group has tried and failed the first four-player scenario in dwarf kings (I think it's "adventure 2"?) three times and that soured them a lot on the game. There simply is not enough time to complete that quest as written, and I'm convinced people claiming to have done it online are playing with modified or misunderstood rules. A competent Mortibris player can effectively jam up the approach to the last room with zombies such that it's not possible to clear it in the ~2 turns needed. The key problems with the scenario are the need to open the lock and the inability to do that in less than two turns, and the need for the dwarf to get to the last room quickly despite being slow and easy to slow down. That bottleneck is just too easy to exploit for the Mortibris player, and so obviously so that choosing not to do it is transparently throwing the game to the adventurer players. The attached blog describes it as the first in a series of upcoming FAQs for Dungeon Saga from the new Rules Committee, so there might still be some hope, especially as the living FAQ prior to this was just being done by Jake on his blog, and I don't think he was that into it https://manticblog.com/2017/06/23/dungeon-saga-dwarf-kings-quest-faq/
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Jun 23, 2017 18:41
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Firefight is definitely a "baby and the bathwater" situation. The core mechanics are totally fine, but there are minor things that have jumped out at us as needing clarity in the writing, tweaking, or complete revision. I think as is, were I to be playing it regularly, we'd have a decent number of houserules to make it more the game that we want it to be rather than the Warpath mod we got stuck with. Suppression and charge reactions are definitely two things that I would try to modify. At least the models are pretty good and I'm happy to sit on those while I wait for better rules or to use them to proxy 3e 40k or to play Scrappers or any other scifi game that comes out.
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Jun 23, 2017 19:07
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NTRabbit posted:The attached blog describes it as the first in a series of upcoming FAQs for Dungeon Saga from the new Rules Committee, so there might still be some hope, especially as the living FAQ prior to this was just being done by Jake on his blog, and I don't think he was that into it Cool, thanks. I posted my issues with the adventure.
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Jun 23, 2017 19:30
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That's a shame, but we're probably never going to play competitively so I think we'll be okay. Now I need to tot up what I have to 1000 points, which I guess means shelling out for some Marionettes.
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Jun 23, 2017 20:17
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The Deleter posted:That's a shame, but we're probably never going to play competitively so I think we'll be okay. Now I need to tot up what I have to 1000 points, which I guess means shelling out for some Marionettes. Fortunately the Marionettes are stellar models and fun to build and paint! But as with any game, if you're not playing competitively and playing with friends, the game can be anything you want.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:21
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Atlas Hugged posted:Firefight is definitely a "baby and the bathwater" situation. The core mechanics are totally fine, but there are minor things that have jumped out at us as needing clarity in the writing, tweaking, or complete revision. I think as is, were I to be playing it regularly, we'd have a decent number of houserules to make it more the game that we want it to be rather than the Warpath mod we got stuck with. Suppression and charge reactions are definitely two things that I would try to modify. So, buy the models, paint them up, and wait for 2nd edition for Firefight? Or, make sure not to play with competitive WAACers? Is there a way to get the fluff book without buying the rules as well?
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Jun 23, 2017 22:00
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Pretty much! Or the FAQs might roll out most of the kinks, if the current way to play works for you. You can get the sourcebook alone digitally, but if you want it in print you have to buy the rules combo. Still, it's not like the rules are a hundred bucks a pop.
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Jun 23, 2017 22:08
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