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Tighclops posted:I like that every time the mormons go to space in sci fi, they immediately get owned by bugs or get their ship ripped off by belters or something 1) mormons have a lot of money 2) mormons are gullible
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Jun 24, 2017 17:40
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Arglebargle III posted:The warning sign of a terrible ending is one that has to include new exposition and boy howdy the BSG final episode has like 15 minutes of exposition. "Oh wow the crew is reaching the end of their destination let's tell the story about how Lee got piss drunk when he met Starbuck" BSG's ending was horrible and I'm not defending it but people spent half a decade going all cognitive dissonance that it wasn't God when two characters were literal angels and said as much. People didn't want it to be God so when it was God people got mad. Honestly that made the ending that much better, to me.
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Jun 24, 2017 17:55
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It's funny how the people who are most adamant about God being fiction get so butthurt when he makes an appearance there.
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Jun 24, 2017 17:58
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The show set itself up as a "realistic" space show and introduced the religious elements with ambiguity as many of these stories do Then they wrote themselves into an obvious corner after falling prey to Lost-style gimmicky storytelling and used the religious stuff as a crutch as many of these stories do BSG was a good show at the time but in hindsight a lot of it comes off like a 13 year old boy's latest fanfic that he's convinced is just so deep, and not just because of the religious crap Honestly it's finale would have bothered me a lot less if there had been a scene with a bunch of humans and cylons being like "uhh yeah, we're going to go rock out through the universe with our centurion buddies on this nice basestar we have left over here... you guys can go poo poo in a hole bye" I mean at that point they clearly had no idea what to do with Starbuck since they had already killed her off for the emotional impact last season so why not just have her loving dissapear Adama died from lack of water about 3 days after starting to pile rocks in the rough shape of a house on that hill, you know that right
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Jun 24, 2017 18:27
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Tighclops posted:The show set itself up as a "realistic" space show and introduced the religious elements with ambiguity as many of these stories do ron moore was raised in a deeply religious environment and it's not at all inconceivable for him to have entered into the whole thing with, "God Did It." as the ending. i know its hard for most internet athiests to get this, but: abrahamic faiths/folklore have been the driving force behind western literature (e: or entertainment if you want to be pedantic) since at least late antiquity
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Jun 24, 2017 18:42
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Moore explicitly said in interviews he had no idea where the gently caress the show was going so unless he was lying he didn't have a plan.
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Jun 24, 2017 18:53
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Tighclops posted:The show set itself up as a "realistic" space show and introduced the religious elements with ambiguity as many of these stories do See, I don't think that's really true at all. I think the ambiguity was 90% people inserting ambiguity themselves. They've watched a lot of Star Trek, and Star Trek taught them that God is never God. God's an alien. Or a dimensional being. Or a human standing behind the wall, shouting commands. God's never, ya know, God. That's why the reaction to the ending of BSG will always be funny to me. People assumed the Trek Route, framed religious moments as ambiguous, and then got took for a loop when the show ends with "  It was God... ya know, the entity at play since the beginning of the franchise. And mentioned. All the time."
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Jun 24, 2017 18:54
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As disappointing as BSG got by the end, I will forever hold the first season up as a perfect gem of television. Thirteen superb episodes and a killer cliffhanger. Season 2 had some pretty great stuff too. I just realized I'm wearing my goon-made Baltar "Not My President" t-shirt today. Coincidence? Or divine intervention? WHO CAN SAY?
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Jun 24, 2017 19:10
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MisterBibs posted:See, I don't think that's really true at all. I think the ambiguity was 90% people inserting ambiguity themselves. They've watched a lot of Star Trek, and Star Trek taught them that God is never God. God's an alien. Or a dimensional being. Or a human standing behind the wall, shouting commands. God's never, ya know, God. I've got to agree with this one. What's BSG's legacy going to be like? It's starting to feel really dated when I watch it and I have to wonder if it's going to be a classic of SF or remembered as a footnote for better shows.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:11
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MisterBibs posted:See, I don't think that's really true at all. I think the ambiguity was 90% people inserting ambiguity themselves. They've watched a lot of Star Trek, and Star Trek taught them that God is never God. God's an alien. Or a dimensional being. Or a human standing behind the wall, shouting commands. God's never, ya know, God. It's this. I'll never understand the BSG backlash because the forces at play in the last season were a running theme of the entire show. It's not Moore's fault that goon preconceptions colored their view of the show.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:18
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MisterBibs posted:See, I don't think that's really true at all. I think the ambiguity was 90% people inserting ambiguity themselves. They've watched a lot of Star Trek, and Star Trek taught them that God is never God. God's an alien. Or a dimensional being. Or a human standing behind the wall, shouting commands. God's never, ya know, God.[/i] Eh, this is also a bit of an overreach. God might be any of these things in BSG. If anything, where BSG diverges from the Trek formula is that it remains ambiguous right to the end. The DS9 wormhole aliens aren't gods, for example, unless you want to redefine that term from how most people would understand it. That's true of every single god-like entity in Star Trek. There's no ambiguity, it's always aliens. God in BSG is just something, and the finale provides no answers as to what that something might be.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:21
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More like the first 2 seasons coloured my perception of the show Honestly I wasn't expecting some BS like it's a guy behind a curtain or dimensional whatever like in Trek, I mean it was pretty obvious where they were going by the time Baltar started doing poo poo like levitating (I'm just spazzing here but it's really funny the context of that scene in a show where it occurred in a room with artificial gravity being generated by magical tech) I like how it's cool to poo poo on atheists again though, always nice to have a flashback to the early 90s
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Jun 24, 2017 19:26
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Paradoxish posted:God in BSG is just something, and the finale provides no answers as to what that something might be. Sure they did: it's God. God did it.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:26
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Where's that clip of Picard yelling "Not good enough damnit, not good enough!"
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Jun 24, 2017 19:30
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MisterBibs posted:Sure they did: it's God. God did it. Which god? What is "God?" The God in BSG doesn't actually bear any resemblance to any real world religion. I don't really have a strong opinion either way on the BSG finale, but saying it's not ambiguous strikes me as extremely odd. The BSG God is literally every Star Trek god before the "it was aliens!" reveal.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:32
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God and God! What is God?
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Jun 24, 2017 19:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8LY2VgiikE
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Jun 24, 2017 19:58
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Paradoxish posted:The God in BSG doesn't actually bear any resemblance to any real world religion. Doesn't make it any less God, though. It's still God. Paradoxish posted:The BSG God is literally every Star Trek god before the "it was aliens!" reveal. Yes, because Star Trek Gods are ultimately revealed as aliens/beings/whatever, because they weren't God. The ending of BSG doesn't have that because it's literally God, the entity the series has been talking about since frame one. It's what got some people so riled up. Some people watched this show about God, expecting that all the God Talk would backfire on those that believed it, and it didn't.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:05
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Paradoxish posted:Which god? What is "God?" The God in BSG doesn't actually bear any resemblance to any real world religion. Careful. When I started off on this tack in the BSG thread after the finale aired I got steamrolled by angry nerds.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:20
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MisterBibs posted:Doesn't make it any less God, though. It's still God. Man, I don't really care if people are still pissed off over a decade old TV sci-fi show. All I'm saying is that it's silly to call BSG unambiguous when the nature of God in BSG is left completely unexplained, especially in comparison to Star Trek. The nature of basically every god-like entity in Star Trek is usually explained, and the only question remaining is generally something like "is it still a god if we know what it is?" This is a central theme in DS9. The wormhole aliens are completely, unambiguously understandable entities, but some Bajorans still worship them. We know the identity of God in BSG in the sense that we know it's an entity that characters refer to as God, but that's it. I don't know how you can call that anything other than ambiguous. I'm not trying to take away your ability to laugh at people who are angry about TV, though, so I guess whatever floats your boat.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:29
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Y'all are focusing on the wrong dumb part. The really dumb part is the montage of robotics that we have today with the message "This is a cautionary tale, robots are not a toy!"
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Jun 24, 2017 20:33
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What do you want? If science or technology is focused on at all in fiction it's just to scare you about it. If fiction writers had their way they would still be writing freehand.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:36
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WampaLord posted:Y'all are focusing on the wrong dumb part. The really dumb part is the montage of robotics that we have today with the message "This is a cautionary tale, robots are not a toy!" I always just turn Daybreak off after the fade-out of Adama on the hill.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:53
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remusclaw posted:If science or technology is focused on at all in fiction it's just to scare you about it. I don't know: they got a lot of mileage out of that shot of energy beams coming off the Enterprise-D's deflector dish. If anything I wish Star Trek had fewer nitpicky 'oh no, we need to reroute the primary EPS conduits through the tachyon sub-system interlocks!!' *frantic button-tapping beeps and boops* moments when they needed plot to happen.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:54
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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remusclaw posted:What do you want? If science or technology is focused on at all in fiction it's just to scare you about it. If fiction writers had their way they would still be writing freehand. Ironic giving the thread we're posting in. Part of me actually hopes technology will save us, in a Star Trek-esque fashion. Hopefully we don't nuke ourselves or ruin the planet before we get the chance.
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Jun 24, 2017 20:58
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spincube posted:I don't know: they got a lot of mileage out of that shot of energy beams coming off the Enterprise-D's deflector dish. If anything I wish Star Trek had fewer nitpicky 'oh no, we need to reroute the primary EPS conduits through the tachyon sub-system interlocks!!' *frantic button-tapping beeps and boops* moments when they needed plot to happen. Yeah, but the episodes aren't typically about that. When tech and science is at center stage though, you can bet your rear end the scientist is either amoral or in over his head, or that the tech itself develops some fault that threatens everything.
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Jun 24, 2017 21:00
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"Technology that works and that we have total social, moral, and scientific control over" is both not a good storytelling device and not how it plays out in the real world. Technology will save us, but only some of us, and bring about new situations that we tend to collectively ignore the ramifications of until it is too late. Not even Star Trek ignores this.
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Jun 24, 2017 21:15
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I think science fiction has been more realistic about the possible dangers of some technology, while culture at large has been unwilling or unable to face those dangers. HAL 9000, M-5, Asimov, Blade Runner, and BSG have all warned about some of the inherent dangers of automation and robotics, but those have been largely unheeded. It's not that development of new technology like autonomous cars shouldn't happen, but we should be careful and not expect that technology to "save us". If we want a better world, we have to make that better world for ourselves.
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Jun 24, 2017 21:26
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dont even fink about it posted:Technology will save us, but only some of us, and bring about new situations that we tend to collectively ignore the ramifications of until it is too late. Not even Star Trek ignores this. Picard may break that Directive on occasion for TV plot reasons, but I believe it's a correct philosophy: if aliens were to show up tomorrow and be all 'here, have this infinite free clean energy device', humanity would end up as brains in jars on top of a heap of skulls on a choking, dead, irradiated lump of mud. remusclaw posted:Yeah, but the episodes aren't typically about that. When tech and science is at center stage though, you can bet your rear end the scientist is either amoral or in over his head, or that the tech itself develops some fault that threatens everything.
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Jun 24, 2017 21:42
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The truly bad thing about the BSG finale was the implication that humanity as we know it descended from a group of mostly white people
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Jun 24, 2017 21:55
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Yeah sorry, I'm being a bit too pat about it, and speculative fiction is of course often something of a monetization of fears and anxieties about the future. Lot's of "do not tamper in god's domain" and such. Trek isn't always that way, but it often is, and it can sometimes be infuriating, as in that one DS9 episode with the shipwreck survivors turned Luddites.
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Jun 24, 2017 21:56
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MisterBibs posted:Doesn't make it any less God, though. It's still God. You KNOW it doesn't like that name. (pause) ...Silly me. Silly, silly me.
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Jun 24, 2017 22:00
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The show went into the shitter as soon as the writing staff picked up on "The Final Five" that the fans had been wondering about. The 12 cylon models was just a throwaway that they latched onto because they didn't know what to do with Season3 and it was never a strong enough frame to hold up the show. Then in season 4 they're like "oh poo poo we need an ending" and welp.
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Jun 24, 2017 23:02
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Watching The Ensigns of Command. Data just told a lost colony's leader that they have to evacuate the planet or they'll all die and he flatly refuses for no given reason.
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Jun 24, 2017 23:23
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The leader just gave Data and some girl a look like he's afraid Data will gently caress her. Or was I reading that wrong.
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Jun 24, 2017 23:25
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The subtitles of this episode are wrong, but they're always give the same information as the dialogue just in a shorter concise form. For example Riker: "The Sheliac may interpret that as a hostile act." Subtitle: "The Sheliac may see that as hostile." Data: "Their leader refuses my counsel." Subtitle: "Their leader will not listen." Data: "In the last three hours and eight minutes..." Subtitle: "In the last three hours..."
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Jun 24, 2017 23:37
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Okay maybe I did read the leader's look right.
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Jun 24, 2017 23:39
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MY GRANDFATHER WAS BURIED ON THAT MOUNTAIN
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Jun 24, 2017 23:42
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Am I going insane or are the leader's lines dubbed in?
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Jun 24, 2017 23:44
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Am I going insane or are the leader's lines dubbed in? Just lag in the Universal Translator (I have no idea)
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Jun 24, 2017 23:46
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