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I think my favorite thing about Star Citizen is how every time the company manages to signal that it is completely, hopelessly incompetent in another field, the Citizens all become experts overnight in order to explain how all of this is really quite normal. HR, tax law, engine programming, game development, large business accounting- it's like they went to internet argument 101 and the only lesson available was "Appeal To Authority." I like to imagine this theoretical uber-backer; Perpetually wandering through life in a state of bemused disdain, having already learned literally everything there is to know, pushed every field of human understanding to its theoretical limit. Pity the poor human beings who stumble around, backing internet kickstarter video games that they only partially understand! With such a complete knowledge of all things, it is trivially easy for the super citizen to pick out the real winners and losers and fund accordingly. Any evidence that the game or company that makes it might actually be a flaming shitpile is just the jealous agitation of lesser beings, people who may like games development but will never understand it. Maybe it's just me but I kind of like not knowing things! It reminds me that I shouldn't always take my knee-jerk first reaction to stuff as God's Own Truth and should maybe wait until I've heard from some people who know what they're talking about! Then I can see if what they say lines up with what actually happens. If they're right a lot of the time they are probably worth listening to and maybe I should shut my god drat trap for a few minutes! Here, Citizens who read this thread, let's play a game. Consider the following two events. CIG says thing X will happen with Star Citizen. Derek Smart and this thread say thing X will happen with Star Citizen. Which one are you already excusing in your head when it turns out to be wrong? Which one are you already preparing counter arguments against when it turns out to be true? Deep in your heart, which one do you believe is actually telling you something that is going to happen? Perhaps the one that consistently tells you things that then happen has a better idea what is going on?
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Jun 25, 2017 18:56
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 I am a PC game, we don't need no big EVIL publishers!!!!*proceeds to gently caress up the whole project in every single conceivable way*
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Jun 25, 2017 19:04
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Orion Vault : A Loan in the 'Verse 
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Jun 25, 2017 19:11
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Nice
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Jun 25, 2017 19:12
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I'm still amazed people put faith in Chris Roberts to get a project completed.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:12
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Xaerael posted:I'm still amazed people put faith in Chris Roberts to get a project completed. But how could people have known? This is all out of the blue
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Jun 25, 2017 19:14
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That's the part I don't get. When cracks started to appear in MN9's development process the backers turned on Inafune with a ferocity, and by the time the game actually limped out no one really expected the game to be anything more than mediocre. With SC though it just seems to make people more and more devoted to the idea that this game is magically going to turn out good. Because it's 'trying things no other games have done before'! (Which somehow makes the problematic development a-okay instead of even more worrying.)
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Jun 25, 2017 19:17
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Mr.Tophat posted:The Hindenburg is not crashing, it's landing, why would it crash, it was not designed to crash, those flames are fake news, I envy those passengers as they can afford luxury, I wish I was aboard and closer to the technological marvel, I pledged my life savings for the next voyage, you're a dope if you get a refund just because you heard some guy on the radio cry about the humanity of it all, he clearly doesn't know the first thing about aviation, furthermore if derek smart touches a flying vehicle it commits a terrorist action by default   ==Official CIG Statement== https://zippy.gfycat.com/JealousWateryHerculesbeetle.mp4
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Jun 25, 2017 19:19
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The funny thing is that the backers don't realise they are the collateral! I mean, sure it says IP/property/value/rights/whatever on the paperwork but that's because they could hardly list "100,000 nerds who keep handing us money" on the contract. These banks are probably as bamboozled as the rest of us as to what 'value' exactly CIG has, but the one thing which is seemingly true is that nerds keep giving them lots of money. The bank will like that, even if they don't understand it. The guy in charge of sorting the loan probably just thought "there's some value here, just make sure we get everything if they default and we'll be fine". Think about it. On paper, Star Citizen is an absolute dream. They're selling loving jpegs of ships for hundreds of pounds for gently caress sake! And idiots are buying them and keep buying them! Sure, it reeks of being a drat ponzi scam but it's not like banks are opposed to being involved in dubious businesses if it makes them money. Wrecked Angle fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jun 25, 2017 |
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Jun 25, 2017 19:23
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Pureauthor posted:That's the part I don't get. When cracks started to appear in MN9's development process the backers turned on Inafune with a ferocity, and by the time the game actually limped out no one really expected the game to be anything more than mediocre. I'm pretty sure the rallying cheerleaders that the rank and file look to for guidance on how they should feel are all paid in some way by CIG. They've simply never done anything that would count as a reason to give them the benefit of the doubt, right from their first SELF IMPOSED deadline.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:24
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I think I am more excited for the official response regarding this than I am the atrocity that will be the threepointomen
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Jun 25, 2017 19:33
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Mirificus posted:https://twitter.com/real_lethality/status/877362626472271872 it looks like a coffin
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Jun 25, 2017 19:36
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big nipples big life posted:I love how many of them don't want the 150 million dollar (of their money) company to give any kind of statement clarifying why they mortgaged everything on this loan. Well it's really pretty obvious that we've actually been funding Chris Robert's Investment portfolio which nobody has ever mentioned and that will in turn fund the game Star Citizen for years to come, we just needed a little liquidity to keep the pipelines flowing like any normal crowdfunded business.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:36
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Kurtofan posted:it looks like
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Jun 25, 2017 19:39
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Virtual Captain posted:
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Jun 25, 2017 19:39
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Wrecked Angle posted:So can anyone think of a reason why CIG UK would want to take out a significant loan which doesn't have massive negative connotations? The only explanation that comes even remotely close is the notion that it would somehow be cheaper than to transfer the cash from the Chris McDuck money bin back in the US. Whether that's true or not is a different matter altogether, but as an actual reason why they'd go for this kind of deal, it's the only one that wouldn't reflect (quite as) negatively on CIG.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:41
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nawledgelambo posted:I think I am more excited for the official response regarding this than I am the atrocity that will be the threepointomen It's super unlikely that there will be any official response to this. After Chris's meltdown to Derek they've pretty much stepped off the reaction-to-negative-SC-press cycle. It's mostly pretty clever of them- backers will forget in another week, and as long as CIG doesn't say anything about it, nobody can point out that they were lying later on.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:41
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Sarsapariller posted:It's super unlikely that there will be any official response to this. After Chris's meltdown to Derek they've pretty much stepped off the reaction-to-negative-SC-press cycle. It's mostly pretty clever of them- backers will forget in another week, and as long as CIG doesn't say anything about it, nobody can point out that they were lying later on. I don't know about that, reddit made the thread visible again and a bunch of articles were written and other forums are all talking about it and every time I glance at general chat on spectrum there's another 'question answered, thread closed' or two. The lancel lannisters are busy cracking skulls in their strongholds but they can't contain the incident completely and seem to be swamped outside reddit/spectrum. I don't think they will be able to ignore this though I doubt we'll be so lucky as to get another 8 pg coke fueled meltdown like last time. Which makes me wonder.. has anyone made one of those Star Wars scroll things out of his Escapist response yet?
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Jun 25, 2017 19:51
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I am the backer who still posts about CIG being open and honest with me.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:52
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Over been away from this for months, but the bank story brought me back for the ending hilarity. a thought: Coutts & Co are a not exactly the first bank you'd think of for business investment. I wonder if CIG chose that bank, because CIG thought Coutts would take the easiest line. Other, more commercially experienced banks, might have viewed CIG's collateral as basically useless. The part which makes me curious is that there is a mismatch in collateral and the bank terms. On the on hand, the loan terms are onerous and extremely conservative for the bank. On the other hand, CIG probably doesn't have any collateral worth any appreciable amount of money. The only collateral of CIG worth owning is physical assets, chairs, desks, etc., but that has to be valued at some fraction of the list price and cannot amount to more than a few million. The intangible assets, art mainly, have a very uncertain value, maybe just resale to sketchy mobile developers. The actual IP is worthless. All of those considerations lead to the following conclusions: If the loan is more than, say, $5 million, the bank is taking a major risk on collateral. Looking at the loan sizes: - Assuming a small loan, the loan terms are defined so that the bank holds Chris Roberts hostage, CR can't default on the loan and then keep on developing. - Assuming a large loan, CIG has managed to deceive the bank as to the actual value of the game and CIG. This should not be discounted, as CR is a very persuasive person and Coutts doesn't strike me as experienced in the Video Game world. As for risk, the loan is very risky if it exceeds physical assets. What do I think? I think this is a large loan, say 10-20 million. The extra verbiage, while necessary, indicates to me that the bank is very interested in keeping the art assets. If that is the case, the bank is more optimistic about the art in CIG, which as collateral would support a higher loan value. There is another consideration, without CR, most of the assets are worthless. CR knows this, the bank may not. CR may use that fact to encourage the bank to not declare the loan in default, if CIG is in trouble. He would argue: The collateral the bank has is only valuable when I'm around. (this is after CIG declared the collateral as being absolutely valuable) Coutts would be pissed at CR for misleading them, but CR would have Coutts in a bind. Repossess CIG and lose X amount, or let CIG continue and try to minimize losses. With that in mind, CIG probably has enough money to last a while longer.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:55
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Virtual Captain posted:
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Jun 25, 2017 19:58
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Pureauthor posted:With SC though it just seems to make people more and more devoted to the idea that this game is magically going to turn out good. Because it's 'trying things no other games have done before'! (Which somehow makes the problematic development a-okay instead of even more worrying.) "We're gonna build a tower two miles high despite never having built anything bigger than a McMansion out of plywood, it'll be the best building ever! Ignore the fact we just started digging the foundation two years after our initial completion date, and that we have more newly graduated draftsmen selling floorplans than construction crew, everything is going great!!!" Or "We're creating a robot that can do all your chores and cook and give you a hand job to fill your empty existence. Don't worry about the fact the prototype is made of cardboard, can't hold a pot without burning the house down, we just need a little more money, buy these attachments to further extend the capabilities of the best drat robot ever!" Or "We're reinventing telecommunications and it'll be terabit speeds over a new wifi standard anywhere within a mile of our device! Yes the current iteration requires a 240v plug and it generates 1000w of waste heat and it doesn't actually go on wifi because we use twisted pair to connect clients but it's coming soon!!" Like I can't even think of any high profile startups with so many broken promises recently. Theranos, perhaps?
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Jun 25, 2017 20:02
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quote:A controversial article about SC downvoted to oblivion? All top posts from people who are diehard believers and the rest get brigaded by downvotes?
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Jun 25, 2017 20:03
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Tippis posted:The only explanation that comes even remotely close is the notion that it would somehow be cheaper than to transfer the cash from the Chris McDuck money bin back in the US. Whether that's true or not is a different matter altogether, but as an actual reason why they'd go for this kind of deal, it's the only one that wouldn't reflect (quite as) negatively on CIG. Yeah, the currency/brexit/accounting angle is really the only way this can be spun to be neutral, even then I would question how big a benefit you would need to make it worth putting a charge against the entire operation. It's just funny that given the choice between 'CIG is doing some pretty clever and complex accounting to save a few quid' and 'CIG has blown through the majority of $150m and need to borrow some money to stay open' anyone is picking the former. Let's look at the running count... Times CIG has far exceeded reasonable expectations = 0 Times CIG has failed to meet reasonable expectations = 896,452 I wonder what it will be this time?
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Jun 25, 2017 20:07
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Even if this is a $20M loan, aren't they still burning something like $4-5M a month? Factor in that GamesCon and CitizenCon cost them money and they're probably going into mega-crunch time from now until the end of the year in a frantic attempt to show something, ANYTHING that looks like progress... I still think this is to make things look "normal" until the final December cash grab, then it all folds by March.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:10
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We can be certain that the loan is not for the purpose of dealing with cash movement, because the terms are far too harsh for that.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:13
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skaboomizzy posted:Even if this is a $20M loan, aren't they still burning something like $4-5M a month? Factor in that GamesCon and CitizenCon cost them money and they're probably going into mega-crunch time from now until the end of the year in a frantic attempt to show something, ANYTHING that looks like progress... It could just be that they have taken out this loan to pay for CitizenCon in the hope for more revenue during and after that event.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:15
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It's been a hell of a ride.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:22
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C-Bangin' it 
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The shadiest thing about this delightful mess is Erin cashing out his shares just before the company he is director of gets a large loan and potential loss of control when/if they default.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:27
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skaboomizzy posted:Even if this is a $20M loan, aren't they still burning something like $4-5M a month? Factor in that GamesCon and CitizenCon cost them money and they're probably going into mega-crunch time from now until the end of the year in a frantic attempt to show something, ANYTHING that looks like progress... What if they needed this loan because the last loan they took out was being used to prop up the funding numbers but that wad of cash had just run out. So now they borrowed against the company again and are feeding it into the funding tracker to maintain a baseline and keep the company looking healthy. That tracker always looked squirrely. Always having a flat amount donated every hour and then sudden 15k spikes every few days.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:27
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Watching the shitizens try to justify what is very obviously a desperate act from a company that's on the verge of failure is incredible. It suggests that when cig finally implodes we'll be in for some truly hilarious reasoning about why it's actually a good thing from the most brain damaged fans.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:30
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https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/6jear8/star_citizen_now_belongs_to_the_bank/djdxa18/OldSchoolCmdr posted:There is every reason to believe the project is in financial distress. Plus, the bank doesn't have any obligation to deliver $150+m worth of games to backers if CIG/F42 defaults. 
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Jun 25, 2017 20:31
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alphabettitouretti posted:Watching the shitizens try to justify what is very obviously a desperate act from a company that's on the verge of failure is incredible. It suggests that when cig finally implodes we'll be in for some truly hilarious reasoning about why it's actually a good thing from the most brain damaged fans. They have gathered a lot of valuable experience and SC 2 will be even better!
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Jun 25, 2017 20:32
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What's sad is that nothing is going to happen as a result of this for a while. Suppose they took out a loan of $10m to be paid back over 24 months and monthly payments are $500k. It'll be at least 60 days after a missed payment before the bank does anything so that's at least 80 days out assuming their first payment is due 30 days after the origination date. If the loan amount is massive, they won't be able to spend it all quickly enough without raising serious questions. If it's a small loan, they can tighten their belts just enough to get a month or two into the repayment. I fully expect CR to somehow make things worse but it'll be a while before we see any of the fallout.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:32
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Bank takes ownership of all mocap footage of agent scully and luke skywalker and sandi and splices it into a low budget space porno. Only reasonable end to this saga.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:33
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Perhaps they can use the money from the bank to reach a milestone agreed upon with Amazon to get more money from Amazon. And thus end up even deeper in debt.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:33
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This is actually the storyline for the new movie: The International 2.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:36
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Tank Boy Ken posted:Perhaps they can use the money from the bank to reach a milestone agreed upon with Amazon to get more money from Amazon. And thus end up even deeper in debt. It's like the old arcade racing games where you're in last place at the first checkpoint and have to borrow a quarter off your buddy to keep playing. You'll still be hopelessly behind at the next checkpoint, now you have to buy your friend a Coke on top of it.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:37
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Virtual Captain posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/6jear8/star_citizen_now_belongs_to_the_bank/djdxa18/ I keep thinking it has to be Derek but these posts are so much more coherent and on point that it's hard to support that belief.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:39
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Sarsapariller posted:I keep thinking it has to be Derek but these posts are so much more coherent and on point that it's hard to support that belief. it's Legal!
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Jun 25, 2017 20:42
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