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You know, I wanted to like Destiny and was perusing his vids, but then he had to go and put one up arguing against a living minimum wage (not that $15 should actually be considered that) and my eyes just glazed the gently caress over.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:36
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Kokoro Wish posted:You know, I wanted to like Destiny and was perusing his vids, but then he had to go and put one up arguing against a living minimum wage (not that $15 should actually be considered that) and my eyes just glazed the gently caress over. yeah, i don't think he's aware of much capitalist critique. people are always asking him to chat to some socialists but he never seems to get one on. hearing him chat about guns is pretty insufferable also. he's mostly just great at owning the alt-right.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:22
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blowfish posted:Yeah, and I wonder whether "oh wow it turns out wimmin are actually people and can sometimes do things, this is such a surprise!" is a good message to habituate the uncaring masses to, compared to "it's normal and unsurprising that women are good at things, much like other people". Considering how many people failed to get that message from Mad Max and just thought "This is completely unrealistic! When is this lame chick gonna get off the screen so the man can fight?!" yeah, we might actually need to teach movie going audiences that women can be people before we expect them to take it as a given.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:29
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If every movie followed this minimal common denominator social utilitarian logic, it would make for some boring rear end cinema.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:36
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I'm saying both movies can have a place as sending feminist messages.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:40
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Who What Now posted:I'm saying both movies can have a place as sending feminist messages. But even then, the language of cinema proper is at it's best by 'showing not telling. It works best subliminally, in the unconscious dimension, imo
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Jun 25, 2017 15:43
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And IMO perfection is the enemy of good. Saying something is trash garbage because it didn't put forward the absolutely most perfect message it possibly could is just asinine.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:47
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Women are competent vs women proving themselves competent as plot has nothing to do with show not tell
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Jun 25, 2017 15:48
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Groovelord Neato posted:i'm a dyed in the wool grey wolf so that is partly where i'm coming from. i also want more good movies like fury road and not mediocre ones like wonder woman. I enjoy Chapo but it's possible to feel joy and also hate capitalism.
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Jun 25, 2017 18:39
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Jonas Albrecht posted:There's plenty of valid reasons to walk out of Wonder Woman feeling like the movie was poo poo. True but Chapo and their fans - even though I am a fan - are just going to hate it because Wonder Woman didn't implement full communism.
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Jun 25, 2017 18:42
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Who What Now posted:And IMO perfection is the enemy of good. Saying something is trash garbage because it didn't put forward the absolutely most perfect message it possibly could is just asinine. It's like that's the left's achilles heel or something.
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Jun 25, 2017 18:43
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It's okay not to like comicbook movies imo
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Jun 25, 2017 18:50
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Groovelord Neato posted:i'm a dyed in the wool grey wolf so that is partly where i'm coming from. i also want more good movies like fury road and not mediocre ones like wonder woman. I''ll give it a shot: First of all, the background of the movie I think makes WW more of a step forward for women, especially in the film industry, than Fury Road. WW is directed by a woman, currently the highest grossing film solely directed by a woman in movie history, it makes absolutely no bones about the fact that the main character is a woman and that fact is advertised everywhere from the title to toys to advertisements. In contrast Mad Max is still the titular Mad Max's story and most of what happens is seen through his eyes, its also still directed by George Miller, not that those things are bad or anything but its just that when you get down to it Wonder Woman is breaking the mold in some important ways that Fury Road doesn't. I think Furiosa occupies a similar role to Steve Trevor in WW, really important, but not the main character. Its a fairly feminist movie, but its not as explicit about it, especially in things like marketing and I think that it falls down in a couple of ways. I'm not a huge fan of the way the wives are portrayed, they feel awfully passive on the whole, in a sexualised sort of way, and there's this feeling that they exist to be shielded by people who show traditionally masculine protective violence, which includes women like Furiosa as well as Max, while they hide in the back of the truck and reload the guns. A lot of people were upset about Anita Sarkeesian's criticism of the movie from the perspective of macho violence, and I don't really like the way that she seems to suggest that violence of any sort is intrinsically male, but at the same time I have a certain amount of agreement that to step up to the plate someone like Furiosa has to behave with the same sort of brutal, masculine violence that defines Immortan Joe, while the very feminine wives take a literal backseat. The old girls gang was great though. In contrast Wonder Woman is a formidable warrior and all but when it gets down to it her fighting ability is meant to be contrasted with her optimism about man's nature and the healing power of love while her enemy is the literal embodiment of the brutal violence and warfare of man. It gets at the fact that there's more to Feminism than just women reenacting male gender roles. I also like the way that WW interacts with a fairly believable setting during a real historical period when women were treated as second class citizens just about everywhere, and while movements like the Suffragettes were underway, you get to see the contrast between herself and the world that she is entering, a much more recognizable world where discrimination and rigid gender roles exist in some more subtle ways like clothing. I notice when discussions like this come up there's an interesting difference between how a lot of the women react to it compared to the men in my fairly lefty circles. I perceive a certain amount of scoffing towards Wonder Woman from a lot of men who I think are being much more critical than they would be for, say, a Marvel movie with a similar critical reception like Doctor Strange. On the other side a lot of the women I know are gaga for Wonder Woman, like its really something special, who didn't necessarily have the same reaction towards Fury Road when that was out. I also notice that those men tend to bring up Fury Road as an example of 'How this sort of film is done right' even though they are really quite different when you get right down to it. I sort of feel like Fury Road is the more 'approachable' Feminist blockbuster for a lot of fellas. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jun 25, 2017 |
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Jun 25, 2017 18:55
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I'm also not really sure how WW is sexualised, beyond the fact that she wears her iconic outfit. One of the things I enjoyed the most about the film is that it features very little "male gaze", no lingering shots on her boobs or her rear end or thighs or anything. If anything, anytime I saw parts of her body in focus I just thought "holy poo poo she's powerful" and it made me wanna work out. I dunno, I tend to be pretty sensitive to that sort of thing but I didn't really notice. I am so happy Carl is getting shat on but it makes me sad his followers are so dumb they'll defend literally anything he does. Lack of education aside he really just doesn't seem bright, and I doubt he's the mastermind they're desperately trying to prove he is.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:05
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There's probably going to be a pinch of "DC movies are universally garbage" skepticism. I remember watching the WW trailers initially, and my first thoughts were "What is this movie even going to be about" and "Oh god they're going to ruin this just like BVS." I haven't seen WW yet, so I'm not going to make a single comment about how the movie actually is, but I'm actually surprised DC managed to not just pinch off another turd like all the rest they've been doing lately according to its reception. I wonder if it's good because they decided for very lovely reasons that the WW movie should be made by women(, but it turns out in making essentially a PR move they still took all of the garbage people making their hot messes and put in competent people who happen to be women. I'm not really sure how I feel about that line of thought, though. There's still gotta be a big portion of their competence that is "Because we are women, we understand the importance and message that WW should convey." Also Fury Road is a great movie, but I'm not sure I'd really classify it as a feminist movie, more a movie with feminist undertones? It's still essentially about driving fast and killing people after the apocalypse. The main character's still Max. He's also the one who comes up with the idea at the end that saves the day, even though he's surrounded by women. It kinda sends the message that women can be strong within the context of a man providing direction, and that's not very feminist.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:07
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I never got the sense that Max was the brains of the operation
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Jun 25, 2017 19:21
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He does come up with the plan that's the major third act turning point.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:24
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Sure but his arc is to stop being a bitter loner and learn to trust and care about people again. He needs them.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:27
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I never got the sense that Max was the brains of the operation Being "the brains of the operation" doesn't mean you're the main character. SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Sure but his arc is to stop being a bitter loner and learn to trust and care about people again. He needs them. So you realize then that you're arguing that their problems are subservient to his, right? He comes up with the idea at the end because he finally gives in and trusts them, but their final victory is entirely because he decided to help them. Fury Road is a great movie because they unabashedly made a mad max movie in modern day with a lot of the 80s sensibilities that went into making movies back then. It's a great throwback sendoff, but feminist it is not.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:37
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No I don't understand how my argument is that
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Jun 25, 2017 19:43
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:No I don't understand how my argument is that 
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Jun 25, 2017 20:01
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Honestly, I think a lot of the negative leftist sentiment towards Wonder Woman is a guilt by association thing related to the strong support from typical "white feminist" types (I'm not sure how else to describe the sort of feminist who just cares about stuff like "go women!" capitalist branding and what have you). This is of course wrong, since it's entirely possible for bad/dumb people to like good things (and plenty of good people also like Wonder Woman). In general, I think that a lot of leftists fall into the trap of making this sort of guilt by association judgement call. They see liberals supporting something and immediately view it more critically than they otherwise would. And it's not entirely unreasonable to do this, but it becomes a problem when you refuse to even entertain the possibility of such a thing being good.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:31
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I always saw Furiosa as the main character and Max as her sidekick/partner. She kicks off the story. She has the goal. Max was just along for the ride. He comes up with the idea at the end for the third act, but she also defeats the big bad.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:50
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Not sure if this gem has been posted, but one skeptic posted a pretty incredibly terrible review of Fury Road, while we're on the topic. It seems like the more anime a skeptic is, the more thin-skinned and prone to projection they become: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyzNP8IUs2g You see, immortan joe was actually the good guy - bringing order and civilization to the wastes. Max was actually the antagonist, tying to destroy the great society that this Captain Of Industry had forged. Also, in real life the sex slaves would've been grateful for their enslavement and treatment as breeders, and their rebellion was extremely unrealistic: quote:Honestly, the entire comments section is a goldmine of weird anime children celebrating the glory of fascism and complaining about women. Also, the amount of love that the totally-not-a-community of skeptics is throwing towards Laci now that she's Converted is hilarious - hell, even bearing is giving her shoulder pats: quote:Welcome to the Skeptic Community, look at how good and kind and inclusive we are, and look at how good and important you are now that you have Joined Us. I wonder how long it'll be until Laci begins "Ironically" calling people cucks, considering how many dogwhistles she's already adopted, aha.
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Jun 25, 2017 20:53
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Trying to say which movie is "more" feminist is pointless. No movie will ever be "truly" feminist, short of a movie where a woman (preferably a black woman) just stands there and preaches feminist theory for 2 hours. And we would rightly identify that as propaganda, because it doesn't tell any story, it's just pure ideology. Any movie that is "the most feminist" would be a lovely movie, just like any movie that's "the most fascist" or "the most progressive" or what have you. If you want to talk about specific feminist themes and images, great, and I'm by no means trying to shut down discussion, some of the longer posts have been interesting as hell, but there's no point in defining an entire movie as feminist or not. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 25, 2017 |
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Jun 25, 2017 20:57
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Kjoery posted:Not sure if this gem has been posted, but one skeptic posted a pretty incredibly terrible review of Fury Road, while we're on the topic. It seems like the more anime a skeptic is, the more thin-skinned and prone to projection they become: You think she'll just get gradually inculcated like in a cult, no matter the self-interest of her original intentions? She is an escapee from mormonism. Can't wait for "Ayn Rand is feminist because she wrote empowered rape fantasies."
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Jun 25, 2017 21:01
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Kjoery posted:Not sure if this gem has been posted, but one skeptic posted a pretty incredibly terrible review of Fury Road, while we're on the topic. It seems like the more anime a skeptic is, the more thin-skinned and prone to projection they become: how? it was a lovely despotic regime that only ran because joe had the manpower(a bunch of cancer ridden brainwashed kids) and people were afraid of him because he used to be a super powerful fighter/warlord. and it was only gone last til he died anyway. i doubt his sons could run it. its why he was trying to rape up an heir.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:01
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Ytlaya posted:Honestly, I think a lot of the negative leftist sentiment towards Wonder Woman is a guilt by association thing related to the strong support from typical "white feminist" types (I'm not sure how else to describe the sort of feminist who just cares about stuff like "go women!" capitalist branding and what have you). This is of course wrong, since it's entirely possible for bad/dumb people to like good things (and plenty of good people also like Wonder Woman). It might also be that Gal Gadot is former IDF, and trying to make your imperialist armed forces representative is like arch-liberal-feminism.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:04
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business hammocks posted:You think she'll just get gradually inculcated like in a cult, no matter the self-interest of her original intentions? She is an escapee from mormonism. Can't wait for "Ayn Rand is feminist because she wrote empowered rape fantasies." Lacie's twitter is just incredibly stupid and cringy at the moment. She just seems incredibly dumb and naive. She just seems like an idiotic "lol why can't we all just get along?!?" type without any actual scruples, her foremost concern being that people just shouldn't argue or be "hateful." Now that Trump has won she's betting on a different horse and anyone arguing is being disruptive and they need to be tone policed. Everything makes more sense with her being an ex-mormon. Ex-mormons I've known always seem to be incredibly pliant individuals prone to being duped and joining other cults and cult-like groups.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:how? it was a lovely despotic regime that only ran because joe had the manpower(a bunch of cancer ridden brainwashed kids) and people were afraid of him because he used to be a super powerful fighter/warlord. and it was only gone last til he died anyway. i doubt his sons could run it. its why he was trying to rape up an heir.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:10
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Huzanko posted:Lacie's twitter is just incredibly stupid and cringy at the moment. She just seems incredibly dumb and naive. She just seems like an idiotic "lol why can't we all just get along?!?" type without any actual scruples, her foremost concern being that people just shouldn't argue or be "hateful." Now that Trump has won she's betting on a different horse and anyone arguing is being disruptive and they need to be tone policed. Disobedience to authority is literally one of their most serious sins. It's why Howard Hughes hired a bunch as his staff and why the army used them to test bioweapons on in the 60s.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:11
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Praseodymi posted:It might also be that Gal Gadot is former IDF, and trying to make your imperialist armed forces representative is like arch-liberal-feminism. Israel had mandatory military service Welp, guess we can't have any Israeli actors at all then
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Jun 25, 2017 21:11
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aware of dog posted:Israel had mandatory military service Okay, badly phrased: she's on record as being pro-IDF.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:15
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Ytlaya posted:Honestly, I think a lot of the negative leftist sentiment towards Wonder Woman is a guilt by association thing related to the strong support from typical "white feminist" types (I'm not sure how else to describe the sort of feminist who just cares about stuff like "go women!" capitalist branding and what have you). This is of course wrong, since it's entirely possible for bad/dumb people to like good things (and plenty of good people also like Wonder Woman). I don't know about that, sometimes people mention Gal Gadot's lovely Israeli nationalism, but the idea that the problem with Wonder Woman is to do with the 'Woke Brands' fakeness? I just don't see that expressed, most criticism is aimed at a perceived lack of quality rather than being perniciously milquetoast Liberal in such a way as to undermine leftism. The very fact that its a Hollywood blockbuster makes it an intrinsically Capitalist product, but then so is Star Wars, and the Fast the Furious, and the Marvel franchises, and Batman and so many other things. When I talk about these things among friends that's just an understood part of engaging with such a product. And those same Liberals also loved Mad Max, but again, you don't see as much critique of that. theCalamity posted:I always saw Furiosa as the main character and Max as her sidekick/partner. She kicks off the story. She has the goal. Max was just along for the ride. He comes up with the idea at the end for the third act, but she also defeats the big bad. Did you ever see the Road Warrior? Max has a very similar arc in that movie as he has in Fury Road, and in both he's similarly not the one really responsible for the events that unfold, I'd actually say he affects the plot more in Fury Road than the Road Warrior, Pappagallo in the latter movie is really the one who drives the plot forward and even has a last second twist that both Max and audience only realize at the very end. I think in both movies I'd call Max the main character not necessarily because he drives events forward but because the audience mostly sees things unfold through his eyes. A good example of that in FR is when he wakes up after the sandstorm and stumbles upon the War Rig, ultimately overpowering Furiosa. Him and the audience are in a similar state of confusion and suspicion when they initially see the wives, and its only later when Furiosa doles out of information to him on the Rig do things get pieced together.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:16
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Huzanko posted:Everything makes more sense with her being an ex-mormon. Ex-mormons I've known always seem to be incredibly pliant individuals prone to being duped and joining other cults and cult-like groups.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:20
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Cults normally have a charismatic and often intelligent leader, so I don't think they'd meet the definition. (That wasn't just an attempt to sikk burn the rationalists, I really don't think their internal structure is organized enough to be a cult.)
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Jun 25, 2017 21:50
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Kjoery posted:oh yea, i know. immortan joe's facist regieme being a Good Thing was the argument that the anime Skeptic in the video was making. also a ton of commenters can be found fawning over Joe and talking about how great it'd be one of his sex slaves oh i know you know. i am just a weird nerd who is making GBS threads on their ideas from a nerd/history nerd perspective. i mean me and my friends play devils advocate for all kinds of awful fictional/historical people. then again, i dont think the ideas are good. i just find them interesting. kinda like reading about all the insane nazi race science and how amusling awful the imperium of man is.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:50
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Kjoery posted:Also, the amount of love that the totally-not-a-community of skeptics is throwing towards Laci now that she's Converted is hilarious - hell, even bearing is giving her shoulder pats:
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Jun 25, 2017 21:54
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Guavanaut posted:Cults normally have a charismatic and often intelligent leader, so I don't think they'd meet the definition. Yeah cults are generally organized, the "rationals" are just ideologues. We do the same thing on the ardent left, it's just that we're right.
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Jun 25, 2017 21:56
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Guavanaut posted:Cults normally have a charismatic and often intelligent leader, so I don't think they'd meet the definition. yeah. plus the entire idea(theoretically) goes against cult thinking.
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Jun 25, 2017 22:00
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