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Mustached Demon posted:Bunch of boomers might die? Well, yes, but something bad could also happen.
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Jun 24, 2017 02:29
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got any sevens posted:Phoenix was too hot a few days ago for planes to take off. Lol Phoenix suspending ground operations for a not-insignificant fraction of the year isn't new. Someone had posted annual data on flight cancellations related to heat like last year in this thread. I'll search for it when not phoneposting Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 02:39
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Hey thread, first timer here. I just saw a guy deny climate change is man-made (though not that it exists.) He's arguing that theres no scientific consensus and that it's a hoax designed to tax people. I'd like to thank the OP for providing some good sources I'll need to sift through later today. Unfortunately I think any scientific sources might be buried under his "There is no problem the free market can't solve" undertone because climate change might be too hard on his worldview. Has anyone encountered such a mix of libertarianism and climate change denal before? Am I better off trying to argue climate change in particular, or does that get you nowhere with these people?
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Jun 24, 2017 07:02
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Deltasquid posted:Hey thread, first timer here. I just saw a guy deny climate change is man-made (though not that it exists.) They don't really like to be argued with and facts are not the issue. It's politics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cWnubJ9CEw
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Jun 24, 2017 07:09
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Deltasquid posted:Hey thread, first timer here. I just saw a guy deny climate change is man-made (though not that it exists.) People who believe in conspiracy theories tend to be alienated or feel disaffected. Arguing with them isn't going to make them feel any more powerful or accepted. http://www.npr.org/2016/12/11/505187974/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories
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Jun 24, 2017 07:23
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He's British though, if that matters. I don't think climate change denial has such strong connections with any particular party there (except the Tories, natch, but not as strongly as the Republican party). Maybe I can just make him seem like an obstinate fool to people passing by.
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Jun 24, 2017 07:31
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Deltasquid posted:He's British though, if that matters. I don't think climate change denial has such strong connections with any particular party there (except the Tories, natch, but not as strongly as the Republican party). In the UK climate change denial is bundled in with anti-EU/anti-globalism sentiment, because that's where environmental regulations come from. (Anti-EU sentiment is also often linked to anti-immigration which can be cause by any number of flavors of xenophobia...)
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Jun 24, 2017 09:12
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Deltasquid posted:Hey thread, first timer here. I just saw a guy deny climate change is man-made (though not that it exists.) See if you can tackle the Free market fundamentalism first. If he can't be made to accept externalities are a thing then it's not worth wasting the time.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:57
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Yeah, if he's a Free Market-type then you'll need to give him a crisis of faith before you can get anywhere.
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Jun 24, 2017 22:02
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Accretionist posted:Yeah, if he's a Free Market-type then you'll need to give him a crisis of faith before you can get anywhere. I think this is an unproductive way to deal with these conversations, as generally people don't have crises of faith very often. Conspiratiorist posted:In the UK climate change denial is bundled in with anti-EU/anti-globalism sentiment, because that's where environmental regulations come from. I think understanding this ideological bundling phenomena is key to having a productive conversation. Deltasquid's acquaintance thinks global warming is a scheme designed to justify taxes. This and the comments about libertarianism imply that in his friend's mind, the existence of anthropogenic climate change has somehow become entangled in an entirely separate argument about proper government and economic policy. There's no inherent reason these ideas should be correlated, just as there's no reason to expect belief in global warming to be related to a belief in the morality of abortion. However these sorts of political ideas often become conflated for reasons of identity and instrumentality (i.e. whether it is useful to believe something). We all like to pretend we came to our beliefs through the application of pure reason, but the truth is we often inherit them as a set. In order to have a productive fact based conversation, I find it to be easiest if I can dissociate the issue from the wider politicized context. You're not going to convince a lifelong Tory to suddenly become a Corbynista in one 15 minute conversation and it isn't worth trying. However if you want to talk about ACC, if you can keep the subject laser focused on temperature, data, scientific practice etc, and absolutely stay away from issues like taxation that might be truly driving their position, you can get a lot farther. This can be surprisingly easy to do if you can manage to 'speak the language' of their ideology so to speak, by framing the issue in terms that are coherent to their ideological position. Following that respect I think you can get surprisingly far. Getting combative or even going into the conversation with the goal of 'winning' by convincing him to take your position is of course a fast track to failure and ideological retrenchment.
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Jun 25, 2017 01:50
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Avoiding Two Degrees of Warming 'Is Now Totally Unrealistic' Just in case anyone was still under any illusions.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:49
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On the weather!= climate front gonna hit 3 figgies F here today anecdotes sure aren''t statistic but still
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Jun 25, 2017 19:52
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Squalid posted:I think this is an unproductive way to deal with these conversations, as generally people don't have crises of faith very often. Lol he isn't even a friend, just some guy making GBS threads up the EU parliament's facebook feed. Fortunately while I took an exam yesterday, some other noble souls took up the torch of arguing on the internet. EDIT: but you're right. I think the roundabout way of shaking this guy's belief in the free market would be the best long-term solution, but he seemed to be some middle-aged man and his profile stated he studied at Yale business school or something, so I don't think trying to change his mind would have worked much in the long run. His logic seemed to be that "if there's a problem, the free market will fix it." with a tautological touch of "if the free market can't fix it, it actually isn't a problem". His parting shot to me was "There's no problem the free market can't fix. And the government is never a solution. Remember that." so I think he was a lost cause no matter what. 
Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jun 25, 2017 |
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Jun 25, 2017 22:07
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Squalid posted:Deltasquid's acquaintance thinks global warming is a scheme designed to justify taxes. How do you even begin to address this though? There are plenty of western nations where climate change has in fact been used to shift taxes from capital and income to sales through VAT-derivatives. (primarily through carbon tax) Only one thing in that statement is wrong. Global warming is a real phenomenon, not a scheme, that has been used to justify tax-shifts. Either way he still has a reason to distrust politics which means you wouldn't make any progress.
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Jun 25, 2017 22:33
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Deltasquid posted:His parting shot to me was "There's no problem the free market can't fix. And the government is never a solution. Remember that." so I think he was a lost cause no matter what. "Markets require government in order to exist, fuckwit. Love, Econ 101"
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Jun 26, 2017 00:14
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MiddleOne posted:How do you even begin to address this though? Political power flows from the barrel of a gun.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:21
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Deltasquid posted:His parting shot to me was "There's no problem the free market can't fix. And the government is never a solution. Remember that." so I think he was a lost cause no matter what. That's one hell of a position.
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Jun 26, 2017 06:27
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:The only solution is mass suicide This is a page back but reading over this probate history gave me a glimmer of hope that'll probably be quashed as I finish catching up with the thread.
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Jun 26, 2017 06:31
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hooman posted:That's one hell of a position. Libertarianism as a philosophy boils down to the assertion that markets are the only legitimate seat of political power. It is a garbage philosophy.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:02
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:This is a really stupid take and you're a very stupid person. Also don't use the N-word. I love that a reasonable opinion makes you melt down (lol) like this, keep it up if you don't want Larsen C around my man!
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Jun 26, 2017 21:12
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https://twitter.com/JustinHGillis/status/879351914848288769quote:The record increases of airborne carbon dioxide in 2015 and 2016 thus raise the question of whether this has now come to pass. Scientists are worried, but they are not ready to draw that conclusion, saying more time is needed to get a clear picture.
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Jun 27, 2017 00:16
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"a mystery"
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Jun 27, 2017 00:38
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Wow, maybe the data countries compile on their own could be erroneous? The very thing everyone pretends won't happen because it would make carbon tax, carbon credits, etc completely pointless?
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Jun 27, 2017 01:15
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Wait are we talking feedback loops or emissions cheats
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Jun 27, 2017 02:03
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Why can't we have both?
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Jun 27, 2017 02:55
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TheBlackVegetable posted:Avoiding Two Degrees of Warming 'Is Now Totally Unrealistic' Everytime I read the thread title a little voice in my mind says, "Nothing. The world's going to burn." At least I'm up in New England. My brother down in Florida is so screwed.
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Jun 27, 2017 03:05
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This is clearly not great:
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Jun 27, 2017 03:21
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Evil_Greven posted:This is clearly not great: If you squint just right there are still a few pixels within 2 deviations at the end of may. Based on that I'd say this year is totally normal!
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Jun 27, 2017 03:25
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JFC, at least during the Bush admin they were at least a little bit coy about doing this:quote:The Environmental Protection Agency’s chief of staff pressured the top scientist on the agency’s scientific review board to alter her congressional testimony and play down the dismissal of expert advisers, his emails show. Also your daily reminder that Lamar Smith is a gigantic sack of poo poo.
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Jun 27, 2017 03:45
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OhFunny posted:At least I'm up in New England. My brother down in Florida is so screwed. I think we all may be hosed, amigo.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:37
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Uncle Jam posted:Wow, maybe the data countries compile on their own could be erroneous? The very thing everyone pretends won't happen because it would make carbon tax, carbon credits, etc completely pointless? This is my suspicion too. It wouldn't shock me if it turned out that the decoupling of emissions and economic growth never really happened. On the other hand, a lot of countries would need to be misreporting data and that would be kind of weird, so who knows?
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Jun 27, 2017 04:38
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https://twitter.com/jacquesk8/status/879421679742603264
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Jun 27, 2017 05:32
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OhFunny posted:Everytime I read the thread title a little voice in my mind says, "Nothing. The world's going to burn." I always read it in the past tense, "What was to be done?". Uncle Jam posted:Wow, maybe the data countries compile on their own could be erroneous? The very thing everyone pretends won't happen because it would make carbon tax, carbon credits, etc completely pointless? I can't help but feel that this would be a factor, and quite frankly I hope it is because if those results are an indication of a cascade failiure of natural carbon sinks, every calculation and trajectory of emissions and resulting warming is off by something like 50%. I wonder how many wake-up calls we need.
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Jun 27, 2017 07:25
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Potato Salad posted:Phoenix suspending ground operations for a not-insignificant fraction of the year isn't new. Surprised this doesn't happen in Vegas
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Jun 27, 2017 07:40
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The mystery isn't new, its been a mystery for a very long time. There has been a consistent mismatch between the carbon we emit and the carbon we can measure. That is to say, there is a substantial fraction of carbon that we emit that isn't going into the atmosphere or the ocean (probably) and we don't know where its going or where it went or how long it might stay there. I guess everyone just ignored this because up till now it was working in our favour. Well poo poo.... And old article discussing it http://www.science20.com/news_releases/where_does_co2_go_mystery_missing_sinks EDIT: The economics regarding fossil fuel extraction and burning making hiding emissions almost impossible. We know how much coal was extracted really quiet accurately, because we know how much coal companies sell and how much electricity we sold and so forth. I expect the amount of CO2 relating to fossil fuel emissions are quiet accurate. EDITEDIT: A better link https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/fung_01/ 1997 quote:In the past 200 years, atmospheric CO2 levels have increased by a quarter, going from 0.028% around 1700 to 0.035% in 1995. This increase has been caused by growing human populations using and burning increasing amounts of coal, oil and gas. Also, deforestation puts additional CO2 in the atmosphere, by burning of trees and by disturbing vegetation and soil dynamics, which permits the detritus of forest clearing to decompose and to oxidize the soil carbon. BattleMoose fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 08:24
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So the people who are like "I'm glad I live in a frosty climate"... what's the theory there? Tens of millions of climate refugees will migrate to the remaining habitable parts of the US and they're just gonna sit and die jobless, while respecting your property rights?
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Jun 27, 2017 15:20
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call to action posted:So the people who are like "I'm glad I live in a frosty climate"... what's the theory there? Tens of millions of climate refugees will migrate to the remaining habitable parts of the US and they're just gonna sit and die jobless, while respecting your property rights?
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Jun 27, 2017 15:25
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call to action posted:So the people who are like "I'm glad I live in a frosty climate"... what's the theory there? Tens of millions of climate refugees will migrate to the remaining habitable parts of the US and they're just gonna sit and die jobless, while respecting your property rights? You'd be amazed what we can achieve with cameras, walls and machine guns in the future. Just look at the refugee crisis today!
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Jun 27, 2017 15:30
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call to action posted:So the people who are like "I'm glad I live in a frosty climate"... what's the theory there? Tens of millions of climate refugees will migrate to the remaining habitable parts of the US and they're just gonna sit and die jobless, while respecting your property rights? I recommend New Zealand, its harder to get to than Australia, has epic water resources and already 1st world. Its also frosty.
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Jun 27, 2017 15:39
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call to action posted:So the people who are like "I'm glad I live in a frosty climate"... what's the theory there? Tens of millions of climate refugees will migrate to the remaining habitable parts of the US and they're just gonna sit and die jobless, while respecting your property rights? They're counting on their governments mowing those refugees down at the border. Which, to be fair, seems pretty likely.
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Jun 27, 2017 16:10
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