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Yo Tender Bender, might it be that you parse the scene as being video-gamey because it draws from video games which depict similar battles in space? Like Obi-Wan and Anakin flying along the capital ship and then the larger battle being revealed as they move past it- that sort of framing is frequently used in space combat games. But large scale space warfare is rarely attempted in film.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:42
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Perhaps because the CG looks chintzy and unconvincing?
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Jun 26, 2017 04:53
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Yaws posted:Perhaps because the CG looks chintzy and unconvincing? It doesn't, though.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:55
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A big aspect that nobody's talked about yet is camera movement. Starting around 2000 or so it became possible to do long shots with lots of CGI and a dynamic camera. In video games, growing budgets and advancing PC and console hardware made lengthy and intricate pre-rendered cut scenes possible. In both cases, essentially all conventional restraints on what a scene could show, and from what angle(s), vanished. So people experimented, and made long shots where the camera flies and zooms all around a scene, without cutting, in a way that was flatly impossible before. So the idea of a single shot, totally free camera appeared in both film and video games at about the same time, because it became technically possible in both media around the same time. Sometimes it was used well, sometimes not. Some of the "video game" association comes from that fact. But even more specifically, the explosion of QTEs in video games (from 2005ish, when both Resident Evil 4 and ROTS came out) is really what people are thinking about when they say a film feels like a video game. Think about how a camera needs to move in a QTE - far enough to see the context of the action, but darting in as player responses are needed, then back out to show their results. So the camera does a more or less elaborate dance with the action, as a branching cut-scene plays out. This may or may not happen in a single shot. RE4 has many fast cuts, and a hyper, non-physical camera that flies all over. In the Uncharted games the camera tends to orbit the action a little more sedately during set-pieces, zooming closer to let you play, then back out as you trigger a scripted event. Which is essentially what the camera does in that opening ROTS shot - it orbits the protagonists, darting in and out, focusing on near or far elements of the background as they zoom past and do something unique. And the rest of the scene follows a similar pattern, with cuts to closeups for reaction/dialogue, and cuts to wide shots establish context. That's the connection people are making - the camera moves in a way that's familiar from a ("cinematic"!) videogame like Uncharted, where you're expected to alternate smoothly between playing and watching as some (organic feeling, but completely scripted) new wrinkle is thrown at you. So I kind of agree with SMG: people may be unconsciously interpreting a scene as gameplay, and then ascribing the sense of lost tension to the scene itself, rather than their unconscious and unfulfilled (by the nature of the film medium) desire to have some agency within it. In the case of ROTS I don't think the video game comparison is particularly fair - space combat is hard to depict, because there's no fundamental context for the action, just the void. It's the one place where a freely floating camera makes sense. Further, most depictions of space combat, or aerial combat, are usually essentially 2D instead of (rightly) 3D. So a long take that zips through multiple layers of a battle volume is actually appropriate, to show something we hadn't really seen before, in a way we hadn't seen before. Otherwise, that scene plays out much like an Indiana Jones vehicle hopping action scene. Which are all pretty cheesy and self indulgent. The opening shot, and the moment Cnut put in that gif, are legitimately great and breathtaking. As the scene goes on it gets less and less exciting, and the later parts of it are pretty unremarkable. The videogames it might feel most like still came out afterward, though. And in any case the similarity comes from a legitimate co-evolution of technique in the face of similar creative problems.
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Jun 26, 2017 07:27
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Bongo Bill posted:It doesn't, though. It does, though.
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Jun 26, 2017 10:03
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gently caress those dumb little buzzdroids. Like, why fill a missile with buzzdroids instead of explosives? If you can get a missile close enough...to...fire buzzdroids...just cut out the middle man.
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Jun 26, 2017 11:32
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porfiria posted:gently caress those dumb little buzzdroids. Like, why fill a missile with buzzdroids instead of explosives? If you can get a missile close enough...to...fire buzzdroids...just cut out the middle man. They're kamikaze pilots. Those little dudes had Obi-Wan beat. He had fully accepted his death. But no, this battle above Coruscant wasn't threatening to our heroes at all...
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Jun 26, 2017 11:55
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R4 hadn't accepted his death. He screams as his head is ripped off.
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Jun 26, 2017 11:57
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I'm pretty sure the tactically realistic side of buzz droids is that they're designed to be launched at capital ships and do massive systemic damage over a relatively long period, while slipping under the defense systems designed to stop larger threats. They're the Federation's equivalent of the rebels attacking the Death Star, sorta. R2-D2 zaps one with lightning because he's a sith lord. 
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Jun 26, 2017 12:06
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Prolonged Priapism posted:
These are great points that I wasn't conscious of,thanks! Prolonged Priapism posted:Otherwise, that scene plays out much like an Indiana Jones vehicle hopping action scene. Which are all pretty cheesy and self indulgent. It's not at all dissimilar structurally to an Indiana Jones vehicle hopping scene, and it's far from the only film to feature that structure. What I take issue with is the degree to which the surrounding conflict is unconvincingly sidelined during those isolated encounters. It's comparable to an Indiana Jones Vehicle Hopping scene that takes place on Normandy Beach. More effective space battles in the series tend to credibly isolate the characters (i.e. directing them into a trench) or don't feature extended isolated focused sequences in the middle of chaos. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 13:31
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about camerawork
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Tender Bender posted:
Luke has the leisure and space to wrap a towing cable around an AT-AT in notable Episode VII trash prequel The Empire Strikes Back.
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Jun 26, 2017 13:47
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Speaking of video games, the new Battlefront trailer had a hell of a lot of battle droids in it for a series allegedly trying desperately to usher the prequels out of the big budget spotlight so they fade from public memory. It almost seems like people were disappointed with their exclusion from the first one.
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Jun 26, 2017 13:49
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Battle Droids are cool, no matter what anyone says. They're as out-of-touch with the realities of drone warfare as anything in the OT was about technology and that makes it really fun.
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Jun 26, 2017 13:53
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Battle droids are in every sense slave soldiers with a sense of humor about their situation. They're nothing like drones or drone warfare.
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Jun 26, 2017 13:57
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I don't understand what making the space battle "threatening" would actually entail. If there are thousands of giant battleships shooting at each other, why would they direct their attention at two one-man planes anyway? Also, Anakin and Obi-Wan have already been established as glib adventurers, showing them at the height of that, and of their powers and partnership in general, provides contrast for when, at the end of the movie, the two have a duel in hell, as well as when they appear in the Original Trilogy as "Old Ben" and "Darth Vader", mere shadows of what they used to be.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:26
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Beeez posted:I don't understand what making the space battle "threatening" would actually entail. If there are thousands of giant battleships shooting at each other, why would they direct their attention at two one-man planes anyway? Also, Anakin and Obi-Wan have already been established as glib adventurers, showing them at the height of that, and of their powers and partnership in general, provides contrast for when, at the end of the movie, the two have a duel in hell, as well as when they appear in the Original Trilogy as "Old Ben" and "Darth Vader", mere shadows of what they used to be. Well, ANH did it by introducing a whole squadron of fighters and then killing the pilots off one by one to show that the battle was an incredibly dangerous borderline suicide mission. If you only ever see the two main characters, its tough for there to be a real sense of danger because you know they are going to make it. Of course, that's kind of the point of some of those prequel scenes, it's all somewhat easy for Anakin, he never really has to try very hard when it comes to space battles.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:34
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homullus posted:Luke has the leisure and space to wrap a towing cable around an AT-AT in notable Episode VII trash prequel The Empire Strikes Back. Right, and that feels convincing due to how that battlefield is framed, as the individual walkers and ground troops become more spread out during their slow march on the shield generator. 
Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 16:41
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Basebf555 posted:Well, ANH did it by introducing a whole squadron of fighters and then killing the pilots off one by one to show that the battle was an incredibly dangerous borderline suicide mission. If you only ever see the two main characters, its tough for there to be a real sense of danger because you know they are going to make it. Of course, that's kind of the point of some of those prequel scenes, it's all somewhat easy for Anakin, he never really has to try very hard when it comes to space battles. Yeah, but that made sense for the logic of the scene. The fighter squadrons were the only Rebel combatants, it was all about them. On the other hand, Anakin and Obi-Wan find themselves in the middle of a massive battle between two fleets of battleships, so it's only logical that there would be fighting going on in the background.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:53
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Tender Bender posted:Right, and that feels convincing due to how that battlefield is framed, as the individual walkers and ground troops become more spread out during their slow march on the shield generator. That battle was just as threatening to the heroes -- Luke Skywalker is shot down and his gunner killed not long after that scene. That shot is the way it is due to the technical limitations of the special effects of the day; I don't think it's there to show how "spread out" the troops became.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:01
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Beeez posted:Yeah, but that made sense for the logic of the scene. The fighter squadrons were the only Rebel combatants, it was all about them. On the other hand, Anakin and Obi-Wan find themselves in the middle of a massive battle between two fleets of battleships, so it's only logical that there would be fighting going on in the background. The stakes of that scene aren't in the space battle itself, that's the difference. So maybe some would argue that a space battle should always have high stakes and feel dangerous, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:01
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homullus posted:That battle was just as threatening to the heroes -- Luke Skywalker is shot down and his gunner killed not long after that scene. I agree. Even as Luke engages in this individual setpiece I don't feel he is inexplicably insulated from the battle, which feels dangerous and exciting. homullus posted:That shot is the way it is due to the technical limitations of the special effects of the day; I don't think it's there to show how "spread out" the troops became. Whatever the reasoning behind it the walkers and troops are quite spread out after the initial sighting. It's what we see onscreen in the actual film.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:17
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The ROTS space battle works well "in-story", in that the idea is that the Separatists make a big attack on Coruscant to capture the Chancellor and get caught by the Republic fleet and it's a massive clusterfuck in orbit. Of course, the whole thing is a show for the cameras- Sidious orders it, lets himself get "caught" knowing the Jedi will likely swoop in to the rescue (and if not, well, he's in no real danger), and we get a big victory but also everyone on Coruscant is shook up so more emergency powers it is, then. It's sort of like an old school naval battle- as late as WWII naval engagements were "wander around until you find the enemy, then everything explodes", because the ocean is very big, and of course space is even bigger, so when ships did find each other whatever strategy you may have had probably is out the window. The Battle of Midway was decided by one of the Allied bomber groups showing up just as the Japanese planes were refueling. So yeah, it's a mess. In terms of the immediate narrative, all we need to know is there's a big gently caress off fight and Anakin and Obi-Wan have to fly through it to get to one ship. It's also really, really pretty- all purple and orange and lots of bright crazy colors in space. The space battle in Episode I is kinda straightforward because it has to share time with three or four other things because Lucas wants to take this parallel action thing as far as it can go, and in Episode II it's a small-scale chase and the big action sequence is on the ground. So this is the "spaceships going woosh and kaboom" sequence we've really been waiting for.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:40
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Basebf555 posted:Well, ANH did it by introducing a whole squadron of fighters and then killing the pilots off one by one to show that the battle was an incredibly dangerous borderline suicide mission. The battle at the start of Episode 3 takes place at the start of the film. It's not a climactic battle; the film begins with what is effectively the end of the war.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:49
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homullus posted:That battle was just as threatening to the heroes -- Luke Skywalker is shot down and his gunner killed not long after that scene. That shot is the way it is due to the technical limitations of the special effects of the day; I don't think it's there to show how "spread out" the troops became. Yeah probably, but the spread out thing is good too. Currently modern armor (tanks) are often not even in visual range of each other when in a battle line. And, as an infantryman, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near those big stompy feet.
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Jun 26, 2017 18:16
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Whose alt is Pachakuti anyway?
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Jun 26, 2017 18:46
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Obi-Wan and Anakin don't care about the wider battle. They do their job so that we can do ours. Well, Anakin cares a bit. This is important later on.
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Jun 26, 2017 18:52
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Always liked the reveal at the beginning of ROTS where Ani and Obi dive down into the battle and it just keeps going down in layers and layers. No other star war that I can recall took such advantage of the three-dimensional nature of space battle.
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Jun 26, 2017 18:58
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Imagine describing any prequel scene as breathtaking or beautiful lol Wank emoji
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Jun 26, 2017 19:46
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Phi230 posted:Imagine describing any prequel scene as breathtaking or beautiful lol Not even Duel of the Fates?
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Jun 26, 2017 19:48
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Basebf555 posted:Not even Duel of the Fates? Wank emoji (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 26, 2017 19:51
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Phi230 posted:Wank emoji You're such a downer
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Jun 26, 2017 19:53
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Lampsacus posted:yes. the characters of r1 were well constructed. Yes I really enjoyed orphan who rebels and guy who will do anything for the rebellion but only that one time.
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Jun 26, 2017 19:58
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So who still thinks the Han Solo movies going to be good?
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Jun 26, 2017 19:59
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Covok posted:So who still thinks the Han Solo movies going to be good? Me
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Jun 26, 2017 19:59
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Covok posted:So who still thinks the Han Solo movies going to be good? The guy the cast to play Han Solo, apparently.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:24
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Judakel posted:Yes I really enjoyed orphan who rebels and guy who will do anything for the rebellion but only that one time.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:12
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lmao Lord and Miller totally told Lawrence Kasdan, director of Dreamcatcher, to gently caress off and got fired because Kathleen Kennedy thinks directing Empire and Jedi 30+ years ago with George Lucas 3/4ths the way up your rear end makes you some sort of Star Wars god. I think the movie would have been good if Howard was on it from the start but taking that much Miller/Lord footage and trying to have someone else wrangle something out of it is gonna be a poo poo show.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:25
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What's the timeline for these films? I'm assuming we're getting 8 around December, and then the Han Solo film next year, and 9 after that?
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Jun 26, 2017 21:31
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Like, for real, Kasdan deserved a shot at TFA because of who he is just to see if he's still got it but he should have been put back on the shelf when it was clear there was no signature touch or whatever he was bringing. He can gently caress off to his Boba Fett movie or whatever but lets not forget this is a guy who was (very rightly) thrown into Hollywood exile after writing and directing a shockingly terrible movie and then came back after 11 years to write and direct a merely lovely movie. He should be respected and consulted for what he's done in the past and his insight into the gears and cogs of star wars but get his hand off the goddamn wheel. He definitely should not be getting any sort of say on someone else's dailies or being given the ability to fly down to someone elses set and swing dick.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:32
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The guy who wrote and directed this is being flown onto the sets of Star Wars movies to yell at people for not doing it his way:quote:Beth Winter (Keaton) rescues a lost dog from the roadside and names him Freeway. Her children have grown up and moved away, and her husband, Joseph (Kline), is distracted and self-involved. Beth forms a strong friendship with the dog and is deeply upset when, after her daughter's wedding, her husband loses the dog. They engage the service of a psychic gypsy to find the dog again.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:44
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