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chutche2 posted:Sure, until someone overcharges their plasmas and starts doing 2 damage a hit. Turns out a specific hard counter is a hard counter. Who woulda thunk it.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:24
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I would much rather they be shooting those plasma guns at my meatshield troops than at something actually important as well. There's really very little in the game right now that doesn't need to be afraid of overcharged plasma
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Jun 26, 2017 16:27
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Turns out a specific hard counter is a hard counter. Who woulda thunk it. It's not a "specific hard counter". Plasmas are the default special weapon unless you want flamer overwatch. They're the general best choice. The others are highly specialized. If this was some high cost niche weapon you'd be right, but I've yet to field a squad without at least 2 plasma weapons, sometimes 3. Plasma is cheaper than grav and melta, and better than both in most circumstances except against some very specialized targets. Even against a lot of 3+ armored targets I'd take plasma over grav, just because terminators and primaris are 2 wounds and I don't want to risk the d3 roll of grav, and the grav has way lower strength. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 16:27
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If someone's overcharging plasma then they also have a 1/6 chance of their model getting deleted.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:31
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Floppychop posted:If someone's overcharging plasma then they also have a 1/6 chance of their model getting deleted. That's why captains exist. I load up tac squads with combi plasma/plasma/plasma cannon and have a captain within 6 inches of two squads to reroll 1s. Or I'll do half-squads with a combi-plasma and a gun or cannon.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:33
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chutche2 posted:That's why captains exist. I load up tac squads with combi plasma/plasma/plasma cannon and have a captain within 6 inches of two squads to reroll 1s. But can it stop a horde of gants?
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Jun 26, 2017 16:34
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:But can it stop a horde of gants? Nothing can. Don't even bother unpacking your army.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:37
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I'm wondering exactly how viable Primaris marines will really be given how expensive and yet seemingly easy to kill they are. What are they designed to counter? Intercessors are 20 points each, Inceptors are 75, and Hellblasters are 38 each. That's a lot of points. Space marine market saturation
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Jun 26, 2017 16:37
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I seriously don't see how plasma killing them easily is any sort of valid criticism against Intercessors. I'm trying and I can't think of a single unit in the space marine army list that a squad shooting overcharged plasma won't at least cripple if not outright kill and this includes vehicles.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:38
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Pendent posted:I seriously don't see how plasma killing them easily is any sort of valid criticism against Intercessors. I'm trying and I can't think of a single unit in the space marine army list that a squad shooting overcharged plasma won't at least cripple if not outright kill and this includes vehicles. The point is, saying intercessors have 2 wounds isn't as meaningful as it sounds. It's not a straight doubling of durability over tac marines because most things stronger than bolter fire are going to do more than 1 damage. Intercessors are as good at taking bolter fire as 10 tactical marines, and much less durable against things bigger than bolters. Intercessors are the one place something like a battle cannon will actually excel at as an example.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:41
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chutche2 posted:The point is, saying intercessors have 2 wounds isn't as meaningful as it sounds. It's not a straight doubling of durability over tac marines because most things stronger than bolter fire are going to do more than 1 damage. Intercessors are as good at taking bolter fire as 10 tactical marines, and much less durable against things bigger than bolters. Intercessors are the one place something like a battle cannon will actually excel at as an example. This really isn't news to anyone, though. Turns out that, yeah, 2W T4 3+ is vulnerable to multi-damage weaponry. So is literally everything else with more than one wound. I don't know where you're going with this line of thought beyond "The main downside to elite armies is the main downside to elite armies".
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Jun 26, 2017 16:44
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What's the point of fielding Space Marine squads at all. Plasma can just remove them from the table and they are quite expensive when you figure that into their points cost. Everyone knows that the true meta will revolve around how many grots, grot guns, Killa Kans, and grot tanks you can fit into 2000 points. They are practically immune to plasma with how many will be on the table.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:44
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chutche2 posted:The point is, saying intercessors have 2 wounds isn't as meaningful as it sounds. It's not a straight doubling of durability over tac marines because most things stronger than bolter fire are going to do more than 1 damage. Intercessors are as good at taking bolter fire as 10 tactical marines, and much less durable against things bigger than bolters. Intercessors are the one place something like a battle cannon will actually excel at as an example. Having 2 wounds is definitely better than 1, regardless of what's firing at you, because whatever is shooting at you needs to do double the amount of damage it normally would to wipe a squad.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:45
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jadebullet posted:What's the point of fielding Space Marine squads at all. Plasma can just remove them from the table and they are quite expensive when you figure that into their points cost. Firing a bunch of plasmas into a tac squad and killing 4/10 is a lot less impactful than killing 4/5 intercessors. Zuul the Cat posted:Having 2 wounds is definitely better than 1, regardless of what's firing at you, because whatever is shooting at you needs to do double the amount of damage it normally would to wipe a squad. No poo poo it's better than 1, when did I say it isn't? I said having 2 isn't doubled durability, because there's enough guns that do more than 1 damage a hit that intercessors are no tougher against than tactical marines.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:46
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chutche2 posted:The point is, saying intercessors have 2 wounds isn't as meaningful as it sounds. It's not a straight doubling of durability over tac marines because most things stronger than bolter fire are going to do more than 1 damage. Intercessors are as good at taking bolter fire as 10 tactical marines, and much less durable against things bigger than bolters. Intercessors are the one place something like a battle cannon will actually excel at as an example. They aren't meant to be a straight upgrade. Five intercessors come in at 30 points less than a full squad of marines without any upgrades. You get roughly a 1/3 less firepower and are a little bit more vulnerable to things like plasma but are more resistant to attrition from weapons that don't hard counter them and can basically ignore morale. This seems like a pretty fair trade when you're looking for a meatshield unit to take up some troops slots.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:49
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Haven't opened the thread in several days. Immediately greeted by Chuch dying on a hill arguing about something really dumb. All is still right in the 40k thread
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Jun 26, 2017 16:49
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The more things change, the more they stay the same. It's like a coupla months haven't even passed. 
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Jun 26, 2017 16:51
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chutche2 posted:
Right here.  They are doubled durability, because 5 tactical marines have 5 wounds, and 5 intercessors have 10. Your argument is dumb, because you're saying they aren't double durability, and they are. What you mean is that they cannot withstand volleys from weapons that do multi-wound and have good AP, which yeah, no poo poo.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:54
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Pendent posted:They aren't meant to be a straight upgrade. Five intercessors come in at 30 points less than a full squad of marines without any upgrades. You get roughly a 1/3 less firepower and are a little bit more vulnerable to things like plasma but are more resistant to attrition from weapons that don't hard counter them and can basically ignore morale. This seems like a pretty fair trade when you're looking for a meatshield unit to take up some troops slots. Twice as vulnerable to plasma, or things like massed guard autocannon teams and poo poo like that. But yes, they're fine for their role. Half the models for double the wounds is worth about 75-80% of what just having 10 models is to me, and that's about how they cost too. They trade half the volume of fire and all special weapon options for having -1 rend and a bit of range. It's not my kind of thing but I can see why people would like it. I just see people often talking as if 2 wounds is twice as better as 1, and it's not. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 16:54
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Zuul the Cat posted:Right here. "Isn't as meaningful as it sounds" is not the same as "Is not better than" Thanks, try again.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:55
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chutche2 posted:I just see people often talking as if 2 wounds is twice as better as 1, and it's not. I, too, often argue with folk about how one plus one doesn't equal two.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:58
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My concern was less about durability and more about firepower, say compared to a regular tactical squad.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:58
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This is reminding me of when I used to play MTG and people would claim things were bad because they "died to removal". Turns out that yes, things can die. The most important part of the thing is how well it performs a function before it dies.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:59
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chutche2 posted:"Isn't as meaningful as it sounds" is not the same as "Is not better than" Let me try to phrase it a way that you can grasp it: If I have 5 gaunts with 1 wound each, and 5 gaunts with 2 wounds each, which group of gaunts will give you night sweats? Beer4TheBeerGod posted:My concern was less about durability and more about firepower, say compared to a regular tactical squad. I'm actually worried about this too. I'm playing my first game with the Primaris this Thursday, and I'll see how they shake out. I'm betting the Repulsor will make up for any shortage of firepower you get from having less guns in the squad and less heavy weapon options. Zuul the Cat fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 17:00
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:My concern was less about durability and more about firepower, say compared to a regular tactical squad. Yes, that's the other concern. They are half as durable as tac marines against things like plasma, battle cannons, autocannon teams, poo poo like that, and also have half the volume of fire for a pretty minor AP benefit. Also, adding more people to my ignore list.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:02
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Floppychop posted:This is reminding me of when I used to play MTG and people would claim things were bad because they "died to removal". Especially, as Pendent said, we're talking about overcharged plasma, which is as close to pure removal as it gets in 40k. There is nothing that isn't T3 W1 chaff that isn't scared of enough overcharged plasma. chutche2 posted:Yes, that's the other concern. Chutche finally just blocks everyone else in the 40k thread. Just as he sits down to start posting, his glasses fall off and break. There was supposed to be time now.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:04
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chutche2 posted:Twice as vulnerable to plasma, or things like massed guard autocannon teams and poo poo like that. But yes, they're fine for their role. Half the models for double the wounds is worth about 75-80% of what just having 10 models is to me, and that's about how they cost too. They trade half the volume of fire and all special weapon options for having -1 rend and a bit of range. It's not my kind of thing but I can see why people would like it. A better way of putting it is that having double wounds does not necessarily make a unit twice as resistant to damage. I definitely see where you're coming from and you aren't wrong- I got really excited when I first saw that my Sanguinary Guard got two wounds in 8th but in practice they aren't much more durable at all against the targets I generally use them against (ask me about having Ghazghkull kill a full squad with his 3 damage claw). That being said there are definitely benefits to the smaller, tougher squads that are worth considering like morale. It seems like we probably all agree Intercessors are basically costed appropriately for what they bring and the rest is just semantics. Pendent fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 17:07
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Pendent posted:A better way of putting it is that having double wounds does not necessarily make a unit twice as resistant to damage. I definitely see where you're coming from and you aren't wrong- I got really excited when I first saw that my Sanguinary Guard got two wounds in 8th but in practice they aren't much more durable at all against the targets I generally use them against (ask me about having Ghazghkull kill a full squad with his 3 damage claw). Yeah, I think they're probably costed fine. I just don't think the role they bring is particularly valuable. The points aren't really an issue, I just don't see a great use for them. Even comparing to bolter marines vs other marines, 2 bolter shots is better than 1 bolt rifle shot against a T4 3+ target. But maybe you can leverage those extra few inches. Small squads do have a morale advantage, but marines have good LD and reroll morale checks.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:10
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Chutche finally just blocks everyone else in the 40k thread. Just as he sits down to start posting, his glasses fall off and break. There was supposed to be time now. One day the nurses swap Chutche's laptop with a loaf of bread. Chutche does not notice. At least his angry rants that frequently devolve into slobbering and gnawing are against the bread instead of something electronic. And what I would really like to know is what happened to Chutche1?
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Jun 26, 2017 17:10
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Green marines, Primaris only: Dark Angels, Raptors or Salamanders? Why?
Ayn Marx fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 17:12
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Ayn Marx posted:Green marines: Dark Angels, Raptors or Salamanders? Why? Salamanders, because hammers and fire are cool and the best parts of Dark Angels aren't green anyway.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:17
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I mean, chutche has a cupola good points. Hitting a Space Marine with plasma removes "one wound," while hitting a Primaris with it removes "two wounds." However, the main difference is that you're usually not going to hit a regular marine with plasma, so it's kind of a non-issue. For other weapons, a Primaris has a better chance of surviving flamers and grenades. Having two attacks, even with no dedicated CQC units yet (besides the new Skullmachetes), also helps them survive better on the assault, which can be important when dealing with fight-happy armies.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:20
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Ayn Marx posted:Green marines: Dark Angels, Raptors or Salamanders? Why? Dark Angels: great terminators and skimmers (though these aren't green), stylin' robes, catholic-esque secrets. Disadvantage: Will be called out as actually being chaos marines an annoying amount. Raptors: the Practical Marines, use camo. Could apply complex weathering techniques from tank miniature painters to great effect. Disadvantage: The 40k universe is so flavourful because nobody is practical though, making them a little dull. Salamanders: Super nice guys. Lots of fire, scales are easy to sculpt with green stuff. Disadvantage: "Oh, this chapter of black guys? They're not actually black, perish the thought! No, they're black because of a...a flaw in their geneseed. Yeah. Don't worry your little aryan head about it, these guys are white on the inside."
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Jun 26, 2017 17:22
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Hamshot posted:Disadvantage: "Oh, this chapter of black guys? They're not actually black, perish the thought! No, they're black because of a...a flaw in their geneseed. Yeah. Don't worry your little aryan head about it, these guys are white on the inside." Hm yeah gently caress that, if I do Salamander biglys I'm painting them as actual black soldiers not this mutated black skin and red eyes bull Edited my post since I only own biglys, if that makes a difference (I guess it doesn't unless you're a sperg about whether or not your gravis dudes are Deathwing?)
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Jun 26, 2017 17:23
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Ayn Marx posted:Green marines: Dark Angels, Raptors or Salamanders? Why? I've always liked Salamanders because they're the only force in 40k that actually gives a poo poo about the populace. (I guess SW do too.) Also seconding flamers and hammers.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:24
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The Bee posted:I mean, chutche has a cupola good points. Hitting a Space Marine with plasma removes "one wound," while hitting a Primaris with it removes "two wounds." However, the main difference is that you're usually not going to hit a regular marine with plasma, so it's kind of a non-issue. For other weapons, a Primaris has a better chance of surviving flamers and grenades. Having two attacks, even with no dedicated CQC units yet (besides the new Skullmachetes), also helps them survive better on the assault, which can be important when dealing with fight-happy armies. Not really sure what you mean by that, having 2 attacks just puts them on par with tac marines (Obviously they are cheaper than 2 tac marines though, so they do get more attacks per point) Anyway, it's not just plasma, plasma was just an example because it's one of the cheapest weapons you can give to marines (Other than flamers and heavy bolters, plasma is the cheapest combi, special, and heavy weapon) and tends to get spammed. I remember seeing a battle report where a bunch of Dark Angel bikes with plasmas tore a necron force apart with ease. I've got a Guard friend who has shitloads of autocannons. 57 points for 3 autocannon teams, each one Heavy 2 S7 Ap-1 2 damage. You get 3 squads and some change for what you pay for a tactical squad with plasmas. I've seen them put out ridiculous amounts of fire per turn that have chewed up all kinds of primaris marines, especially inceptors since they're such a big point sink for how few models you get. Primaris marines currently have to walk up the field, and autocannons outrange them by more than a foot. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 17:26
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The Bee posted:I mean, chutche has a cupola good points. Hitting a Space Marine with plasma removes "one wound," while hitting a Primaris with it removes "two wounds." However, the main difference is that you're usually not going to hit a regular marine with plasma, so it's kind of a non-issue. For other weapons, a Primaris has a better chance of surviving flamers and grenades. Having two attacks, even with no dedicated CQC units yet (besides the new Skullmachetes), also helps them survive better on the assault, which can be important when dealing with fight-happy armies. Getting Primaris into assault against anything intended for close combat seems like a terrible idea to me. They are no more effective than a regular 10 man tactical squad, and being only 5 guys means they can be surrounded and locked. At least the flying dudes can escape and shoot the following turn.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:27
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The lychguard models are rad.  Ignore the dirty cheap plastic outdoor table, there was blinding sun (any sun) in Seattle yesterday and I braved the heat for a minute to take a nice natural light photo.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:27
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chutche2 posted:Yeah, I think they're probably costed fine. I just don't think the role they bring is particularly valuable. The points aren't really an issue, I just don't see a great use for them. Even comparing to bolter marines vs other marines, 2 bolter shots is better than 1 bolt rifle shot against a T4 3+ target. But maybe you can leverage those extra few inches. They do a great job of sitting on an objective and being relatively difficult to remove while being just annoying enough that my opponent wants to do so. They're cheaper than Tac Marines for an equivalent number of wounds and less vulnerable to assault than sniper scouts while also not being nearly as ugly as those old scout kits. I have the rest of my army for actual killing, I just need something cheap and tough to stay at home and score points.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:28
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General Olloth posted:The lychguard models are rad. He looks real good. I want to hug him.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:29
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