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What is the best flav... you all know what this question is: This poll is closed. |
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| Labour |
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907 | 49.92% |
| Theresa May Team (Conservative) |
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48 | 2.64% |
| Liberal Democrats |
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31 | 1.71% |
| UKIP |
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13 | 0.72% |
| Plaid Cymru |
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25 | 1.38% |
| Green |
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22 | 1.21% |
| Scottish Socialist Party |
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12 | 0.66% |
| Scottish Conservative Party |
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1 | 0.06% |
| Scottish National Party |
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59 | 3.25% |
| Some Kind of Irish Unionist |
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4 | 0.22% |
| Alliance / Irish Nonsectarian |
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3 | 0.17% |
| Some Kind of Irish Nationalist |
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36 | 1.98% |
| Misc. Far Left Trots |
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35 | 1.93% |
| Misc. Far Right Fash |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Monster Raving Loony |
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49 | 2.70% |
| Space Navies Party |
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39 | 2.15% |
| Independent / Single Issue |
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2 | 0.11% |
| Can't Vote |
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188 | 10.35% |
| Won't Vote |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Spoiled Ballot |
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15 | 0.83% |
| Pissflaps |
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312 | 17.17% |
| Total: | 1817 votes | ||
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OwlFancier posted:I think it's a fairly small part of the defence budget, and the rest of the defence budget is arguably worse because we actually use that to kill people whereas Trident, by design, is only used to give people jobs. I've never much bought the money argument. I'm from where they make the nuclear submarines so despite being ideologically opposed to nukes I'd prefer it if my home town wasn't destroyed and my family, friends and family of friends didn't all lose their jobs 
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Jun 26, 2017 19:44
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Party Boat posted:Hey Coohoolin, not sure if this has already been posted but is this relevant to you? Coohoolin isn't an EU national. He's Swiss lol not sure what rules apply to them
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Jun 26, 2017 19:48
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JFairfax posted:Coohoolin isn't an EU national. He's Swiss lol Coohoolin is a Thistle and Irn Bru courses through his veins
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Jun 26, 2017 19:51
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So being an island and not having thousands of miles of unpopulated wasteland to hide missile silos in, the nuclear weapons program of the United Kingdom is entirely submarine-based. This is known as Trident. Trident serves, in theory, nuclear deterrence and first-strike purposes in the same manner as any other sub nuclear program--missile subs are almost impossible to locate, so if they want to launch, they likely will. The main flaw here is that Trident as a program is never, ever going to be capable of Mutually Assured Destruction threat to the UK's most likely nuclear-armed adversary, Russia, which has roughly 7,000 warheads to the UK's 215 declared. On top of that, that 215 is the stockpile; the active number is about 120, AND, there are only four Vanguard-class submarines, which can each carry only sixteen missiles at a pop. Theoretically each missile can carry 12 warheads, but the subs themselves only carry 48 as of 1998. All that make your head spin? Here's the short version: the UK's nuclear arsenal is only good for one of three purposes: -Limited tactical strikes, if you're Douglas loving MacArthur -An initial gently caress-you strike, since the system as a whole doesn't have the numbers to knock out a nation's retaliatory capabilities -A retaliatory gently caress-you strike In short, Trident doesn't actually realistically defend the UK from anything, unless you're expecting to fight France again sometime soon. Trident has absolutely no capacity to convince Russia to not turn the entire British Isles into a radioactive parking lot if they want to. They're only good for exacting bloody revenge on a civilian population. This is not the kind of math most people like to do, because it makes them realize that they don't even have a diplomatic defense against potential nuclear war from Trident. So most people want to be absolutely reassured that if the worst happens, the gently caress-you strike WILL go out, because gently caress you. Jeremy Corbyn does not believe in gently caress-you strikes, because Jeremy Corbyn is a pacifist and a nuclear disarmament proponent. As such, Corbyn has suggested or maybe outright said (I don't remember) that he would not order the gently caress-you strike if Britain was nuked, because there would be no point to it other than gently caress you. This has made some people very angry, because retribution is a key element of the human mindset, particularly when something as horrific as nuclear war is involved. But Corbyn's argument is that nuclear war is so horrific, there's no point in making it even worse just for the sake of going gently caress you. This is why he's opposed to Trident. Redeye Flight fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 19:53
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Julio Cruz posted:Also it costs a ridiculous amount of money to maintain, which could be better spent in any of a thousand different ways. Yeah everyone with a hardon for nukes needs to be forced to watch this BBC test run of their nuclear warning, or at least the last 10 minutes. Lord Buckethead had the right idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VZ3LGfSMhA
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Jun 26, 2017 19:55
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CptAwesome posted:I'm from where they make the nuclear submarines so despite being ideologically opposed to nukes I'd prefer it if my home town wasn't destroyed and my family, friends and family of friends didn't all lose their jobs
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Jun 26, 2017 19:55
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Extreme0 posted:Dogs > Cats. Discuss. Dogs are on average larger than cats, yes.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:02
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you guys must have owned some seriously poo poo cats
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Jun 26, 2017 20:02
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CptAwesome posted:I'm from where they make the nuclear submarines so despite being ideologically opposed to nukes I'd prefer it if my home town wasn't destroyed and my family, friends and family of friends didn't all lose their jobs One solution I've seen suggested is building thorium-salt reactors in the region but that would require a bigger political shift than the one we've just seen.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:04
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Neurolimal posted:you guys must have owned some seriously poo poo cats ACAB. gently caress you if you own a cat, wild birds are much cooler than your dumb ambulatory murder device.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:05
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Doccykins posted:Right now If you would like to stock up on leeches and poltice, please talk to your local priest/witch/soothsayer. Take groats.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:08
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Marxist-Jezzinist posted:ACAB. I own a cat, he's awesome, he's also indoors only so hasn't murdered anything bigger than a fly.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:08
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Guavanaut posted:We could always invest in civil heavy industry for the first time since the 70s and they could help make nuclear boats and non-nuclear submarines which are both cool things. We have nuclear submarines which aren't Trident, and they've been cut to barely sustainable numbers. Regardless of Trident, we need more of those.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:08
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Brendan Rodgers posted:Yeah everyone with a hardon for nukes needs to be forced to watch this BBC test run of their nuclear warning, or at least the last 10 minutes. Lord Buckethead had the right idea. It's not actually anything to do with the BBC (well maybe some work experience kids worked it up in their spare time) and if you're a cold war saddo like me the transition-to-war scenario is dumb as hell, also the wording of the attack warnings (which are all public record now) is completely wrong. Just watch Threads instead. If you can watch that film and go "Yeah nukes are cool and good and we definitely need more of them" then you might actually be a psychopath.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:10
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yes, but a meaning that's considered pretty offensive to the populace. Bit like the British isles.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:15
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Pissflaps posted:The French do it too. we say "Au Royaume-Uni"
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Jun 26, 2017 20:15
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Redeye Flight posted:The main flaw here is that Trident as a program is never, ever going to be capable of Mutually Assured Destruction threat to the UK's most likely nuclear-armed adversary, Russia, which has roughly 7,000 warheads to the UK's 215 declared. On top of that, that 215 is the stockpile; the active number is about 120, AND, there are only four Vanguard-class submarines, which can each carry only sixteen missiles at a pop. Theoretically each missile can carry 12 warheads, but the subs themselves only carry 48 as of 1998. Lemme do some spergin here, then turn around and agree with your central point anyway.  You need to keep in mind that each W88 warhead is 475 kT. For perspective, the bomb that wiped out Hiroshima was 15 kT. So one Vanguard is maybe deploying 1,440 Hiroshimas. Or put another way, one Vanguard can easily exterminate the top 48 cities in a country. Let's say they're carrying only the crappy old W76 warhead and only have 40 of them. That's... basically making no real-world difference. 40 places each hit with 6x the power of the Hiroshima bomb with pinpoint accuracy is a catastrophe with no historical precedent. Acting as though that doesn't count as a deterrent is kind of silly. The reason Vanguard is dumb is that the UK is already under the US nuclear umbrella, and if you're nuked whoever nuked you is already nuked too, and we're also nuked as a consequence of that, so none of it means poo poo and we're all dead.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:18
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Skinty McEdger posted:Well there's also the small detail that based on recent tests if they ever did fire one then it's more likely than not to ignore it's target and instead fly towards the USA. Wait what, did they program the missiles to understand patriotism or something?
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Jun 26, 2017 20:18
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goddamnedtwisto posted:It's not actually anything to do with the BBC (well maybe some work experience kids worked it up in their spare time) and if you're a cold war saddo like me the transition-to-war scenario is dumb as hell, also the wording of the attack warnings (which are all public record now) is completely wrong. drat it's quite well made then imo, could you post some cold war saddery about the UK ITT? ?
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Jun 26, 2017 20:19
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In the age of Trump, does the US nuclear umbrella mean much? Perhaps we should be joining France and building our own completely independent delivery system.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:19
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Molemitts posted:Any chance of the voting age being lowered to 16 by the next election? Labour and SNP back it, do the libdems? No, and yes; the last time it was discussed, about eighteen months ago, Labour whipped to abstain because they didn't feel like fighting the Tories on it.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:23
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OwlFancier posted:Wait what, did they program the missiles to understand patriotism or something? There was a fault in the onboard targeting system where for inexplicable reasons it would in flight reset to factory defaults. The default co-ordinates are in the US. There was the whole scandal about the attempt to cover it up a couple of years ago. They claim they've fixed it.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:23
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Skinty McEdger posted:There was a fault in the onboard targeting system where for inexplicable reasons it would in flight reset to factory defaults. The default co-ordinates are in the US. I feel like if I was building an ICBM as the US, I wouldn't make the factory default setting in the US.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:25
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OwlFancier posted:Wait what, did they program the missiles to understand patriotism or something? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/22/ltrident-malfunction-cover-up-claims-labour-urges-investigations
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Jun 26, 2017 20:26
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Comrade Trident knows the real enemy.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:26
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https://twitter.com/InsidersABC/status/878766306261999616
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Jun 26, 2017 20:26
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CoolCab posted:my personal favorite theory they, evolutionary speaking, aren't pets - they're parasites. larger ancestors of cats were attracted to human settlements because we attract tons of prey and are filthy, and the gradual process of natural selection meant the cuter and less dangerous specimens thrived over the wilder and more dangerous ones. Na, they evolved from African wildcats, as far as we can tell genetically. Those have their own evolutionary niche unrelated to us and are about the same size as domestic cats; raise one like a domestic cat from birth and they're pretty similar by all accounts.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:31
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Brendan Rodgers posted:drat it's quite well made then imo, could you post some cold war saddery ITT, specific to Britain? https://vimeo.com/channels/1055902 Pretty much all you need to know from the ground-level perspective. In the event of even a relatively limited war - the kind of thing McNamara and his band of loving idiots considered "survivable" - Britain was doomed. Do you want to know specifically about the transition-to-war stuff I mentioned or just more general terrifying poo poo about exactly how and why we were doomed and how spectacularly stupid our attempts to survive the doom were?
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Jun 26, 2017 20:33
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like if I was building an ICBM as the US, I wouldn't make the factory default setting in the US. I like to imagine the missile becoming confused mid-flight and deciding the best thing to do is return to the factory and let them sort it all out.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:35
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like if I was building an ICBM as the US, I wouldn't make the factory default setting in the US. Charitably, it actually sounds like the safest possible failsafe - imagine every last safety feature fails and somehow a fully-armed Trident launches by mistake. Would you rather it landed somewhere like Nevada where you've been merrily nuking poo poo yourself for decades, or literally anywhere else on Earth where there's a non-zero chance someone would take the kind of offence that leads to the entire world looking like Nevada? e: Actually wasn't there a book or maybe a film with more or less that as an ending? The Americans accidentally nuke Moscow so they let the Soviets nuke New York?
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Jun 26, 2017 20:36
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Skinty McEdger posted:It runs the staff banks for these hospitals: Thanks! Looks like my hospital does their own bank. Still, if the private company mess this up (which they will!) it could be a genuine crisis, I know our hospital relies on bank staff very heavily and I imagine others do too. Also I joined the Labour Party before the election and they won't stop calling me. I had three calls before the election from a central office place, and today some guy from the local party rang to "welcome me to the party", and wouldn't go away even when I very obviously told him I didn't want to talk. And now I have another missed call from him!
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Jun 26, 2017 20:41
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Thank for the trident history. Cats own, but dogs are cool + cute too. Anyway if any Guildford/Surrey goons want to hang out then let me know, I'm getting paid a ridiculous amount of fake money to be here and I need to find cool ways to spend it, already been going to frendsham lakes to waterski like every day. Probably go to Paris this weekend. Hit me up
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Jun 26, 2017 20:41
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goddamnedtwisto posted:
Fail Safe
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Jun 26, 2017 20:42
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goddamnedtwisto posted:e: Actually wasn't there a book or maybe a film with more or less that as an ending? The Americans accidentally nuke Moscow so they let the Soviets nuke New York? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail_Safe_(1964_film) It's an own goal at the end tho
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Jun 26, 2017 20:42
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goddamnedtwisto posted:e: Actually wasn't there a book or maybe a film with more or less that as an ending? The Americans accidentally nuke Moscow so they let the Soviets nuke New York? Actually that really happened but the death toll was so large it caused integer wraparound creating this new hell on earth where donald j trump became president of the united states and the cold war continues but mostly vs. muslims now
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Jun 26, 2017 20:43
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https://twitter.com/Independent/status/879408360646430720
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Jun 26, 2017 20:48
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Skinty McEdger posted:There was a fault in the onboard targeting system where for inexplicable reasons it would in flight reset to factory defaults. The default co-ordinates are in the US. that is loving hilarious
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Jun 26, 2017 20:49
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Charitably, it actually sounds like the safest possible failsafe - imagine every last safety feature fails and somehow a fully-armed Trident launches by mistake. Would you rather it landed somewhere like Nevada where you've been merrily nuking poo poo yourself for decades, or literally anywhere else on Earth where there's a non-zero chance someone would take the kind of offence that leads to the entire world looking like Nevada? I mean I guess I would probably set the target in the middle of the antarctic or something, something where, if you export it, it's not going to look like an aggressive attack if it goes off target.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:50
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Lifeglug posted:I was there for that and I gained infinite amounts of respect for Daphne and Celeste for not only turning up to what was going to be an absolute shitshow, but actually performing a couple of songs. ye from the vid that is easy googled they grinned and were troopers about it. still lol though.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:54
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I've seen this film a few times and it always causes such dread within me.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:55
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